Turbo Charging A Tundra!

Ugh, I wish we had a silver bullet for this, for you Bri! To see this happen just sucks. As I said during our multiple conversations this week, whatever we can do to support, help, guide, etc. We are here for you.

Cause: I don’t believe it was siphoning, at least not while the truck was parked, the tank is below the nozzle and the pump is way below everything else. Was it a check valve failure, maybe, but the dual redundancy we have on your truck, makes me feel it probably was not. Plus, the nozzle is in the piping, some inches from the throttle body, where you aren’t seeing a huge vacuum draw at idle, like you would with a throttle body spacer or multi-port injection where the nozzles sit behind the TB and sees the full vacuum of the motor. Plus by how fast it emptied the tank, I have to believe the controller shorted / froze / sent a false reading and triggered the pump. Which in reality, wouldn’t have been stopped by a solenoid, as the system thought it should be spraying.

What can we change moving forward. We are currently figuring out what adjustments can be made, if any, to safe guard from this. Having water/meth injection kits, the exact one you have, on pretty much every vehicle we have turbocharged for the last 15+ years. I do still believe highly in its benefits. But we’ll talk with AEM/Snow/Devilsown and get some feedback on steps that can be taken to add even more redundancy into the system moving forward.

 

Is the sprayer control board tied into an ignition circuit? It seems like wiring it so the thing gets no power until the ignition is on would fix it assuming it was a control issue. Then you'd have to have a relay stuck on, plus the board act weird, for it to decide to dump all the fluid.

 

That's what I was thinking. Im sure you will figure out a safe alternative.

 

This and//or you could go as far as having that tied to a pressure switch that doesn’t activate the controller until it sees say 1psi and then have the controller start spraying at 2psi. So have the ignition hot source power the pressure sensor and then the pressure sensor acts as the on/off for the control box. Only issue I see is how fast the parts come to life if you are going from zero to wot and ramping boost fast.

 

This is basically how I was planning on doing my setup. Controller comes on with Ignition and set to start spraying at 5PSI, Solenoid triggered to open by Hobbs switch at 3PSI (3PSI is minimum for my switch).

 

Is 3psi low enough for relying on meth as the primary cooling? Temps were my main concern and one of the reasons i decided to just step up to stage 2 and use the intercooler for primary cooling. Gets hot here in Texas as you are aware.

 

Probably not, but that's the lowest setting on my particular pressure switch, there may be other options with lower trigger points.

 

I obviously don't know any more about what happened to to bflooks truck than either or you, but it appeared to me that the controller may have shorted out and bypassed any boost-referenced sensors or other safety controls. If this is the case, as long as the controller had power (whether ignition based or always hot with an ignition trigger like a head unit) it could short and start dumping ethanol at some point for the 15 minutes or so that he was driving. With a 500cc nozzle, I don't imagine it would take long to drain the tank at full blast. 9 or 10 minutes if my napkin math is right, maybe?

I wonder if the a spray light on a flow sensor would be the only real safety to that? It would probably be obnoxious for a while, having it illuminate whenever the system was spraying, but it would alert a driver to a stuck relay, open valve, etc. I dunno, just spit balling.

 

If the motor is running and it starts spraying it’ll either get burnt up or the motor would start running and sounding different from the extra fuel (meth) being injected into the cylinders.

A light indicating the system is actively spraying is definitely a good practice and I’ll have that on mine when I install it.

 

I think it was idling in the driveway on remote start for 10 minutes, so nobody would have been around to notice it. Even still, on a cold motor with high idle, I think the motor could compensate for it no being burned up. I would think that if it dumped a gallon in to the intake before the motor was running, that the motor would hydrolock and not start to begin with? But I dunno..

Again, I'm speculating, not arguing. Happy to be wrong, just trying to figure out how to prevent it in the future.

Edit - it's 4 degrees here right now, and my SC makes more noise on cold start. I'm curious how the cold weather affects the Turbo system and whether or not that was determining factor in the failure. Were the electronics not robust enough for sub-zero temps? Was there a mechanical failure due to temps? Wiring issue? Fluke failure? I'm curious.

 

Generally you start spraying at half max psi and ramp up. Spray too early withtout sufficient rpm it will bogg down from over saturation.

 

I’m speculating on this as well. Only reason I don’t think it happened while the motor was running was the sheer quantity in the crank case. To me that says it sprayed and then drained past the valves and rings.

Either way I think this is just a freak of nature shit happens situation. I’ve used water meth before for years and have never had an issue or even read of an issue like this. Water meth has a very low freezing point at these mixtures so I don’t think it was a freezing issue in the check valves. I don’t know where his controller is mounted but that’s where I’d start. Maybe it got some condensation on the board that froze and shorted?

I dunno. I’m just excited to get my kit and get it installed and start having some fun.

 

Controller is in the cab. Mine is on my firewall, different brand style. Freezing/ shorted controller is what @TurboKits is thinking as stated on last page and he deals with the various manufacturers.

 

If it dumped it all when running wouldn't the engine ignited all that??? Making something else happen? Do not know what could have been avoided without out having a master cutoff just for that but how would a person know when to shut it down? When is too much too much?
A freak accident but how do you stop that from happening again and do you check your tank before every start up now?

 

I was just sharing how I am planning to setup mine, so that hopefully I avoid this scenario, not saying it would have prevented it as I clearly don't know the cause, but I've been putting off the Water/Meth setup because of this exact situation.

The solenoid should help to act as the gatekeeper between the W/M and Engine, but if it's triggered on by the same signal as the controller you lose that extra level of safety. If you trigger via a pressure switch, it should help to prevent W/M entering the engine when you don't want it.

 

Exact reason why I went with the Snow pressure switch. Tank/check valve/pump/ switch/nozzle. Although it sprays at 100% with no ramp up I haven't had any issues.

 

Y'all are having good discussion and I wish I could offer more to it. I didn't notice the light on constant, but truth be told, I hadn't driven the truck for nearly 3 months, and 1.5 days doesn't exactly dust off all the cobwebs. I know I saw the flashing LED only a couple minutes before failure, so 10 minutes warm up plus 2.25/2.40 my miles. I thought the low fluid indicator was a cold weather glitch id have to troubleshoot. Silly me!

Install is per AEMs install instructions with the controller and pressure switch both inside the cab. Pressure switch as close to the firewall to the left of the steering wheel behind the lower trim. Controller mounted in the center console storage compartment under my organizer tray (out of sight and there's nothing hard under the tray). The LED is mounted on the woodgrain trim piece under the left most vent where I have the SCG-1.

Power supply is actually tied to the ignition fuse in the engine bay.

Controller is their latest and is set to turn on at 1.5'ish and be at full flow at 5. We hadn't changed it from Stage 1, though it would eventually have been tweaked come towing season since my goal was to have it only for higher boost while towing.

@Jego may be into something by being able to easily control the electronic add-ons. If it wasn't a siphoning issue, then getting into the habit of shutting off the switch (or having one that resets to off upon shutdown) would be huge.

I'm still chewing the cost of this issue, so I appreciate the grace you all are showing. If the conversation saves one other person this pain, then airing this shit show to the world is worth it. Never did I have this on my list of risks. And I don't regret remote starting the truck. I've done it in the summer, too, without issue, and IMO, is a scenario any aftermarket solution should be able to operate under. I'll absolutely be using that feature again.

 

Sorry about your troubles @bflooks that is definitely an uncommon and unforeseen tragedy. I’m sure you sharing your problem could possibly save someone else from the same problem in the future. There are lots of good ideas for possible causes and remedies that were offered. One extra failsafe could be a manual on/off cutoff switch in the cab for the controller that you have to turn on as part of your start up procedure.

I had another suggestion written up (which I could still share) but it was based on the assumption that the controller has power available to it at all times. If you’re saying it is only powered with the ignition circuit then my idea doesn’t make as much sense and would have involved utilizing that circuit with some extra fail safes. As a silver lining a built 3UR that you can boost away without any worries does sound nice.

 

Wasn't in the cards, but it is now on the table. The biggest question is far do I want to go with it? I'm thinking I might just go with their basic build and a couple of the coatings since everything will be rebuilt and replaced, though I am entertaining upgrading the cams and valves they mention so I can worry a little less about cooking things and have confidence the motor isn't my problem going forward. It's a slippery slope, but the truck remains my 20 year plan (15 remaining), so given the FI threads and a specific spreadsheet, double digit boost isn't exactly unlikely. That said, who needs much more than 800hp on a DD?

I'm open to that discussion with all you smart people. I'll be making a decision this coming week, so what have you all researched and what would your shopping cart look like and why? Again, this is a DD, so let's keep it somewhat practical.

My questions to XAT:
What's the lead time on a full build from the time you have a core? And I see the pricing for the 800hp build, but out of curiosity, what does it take to bump that up to 900 or the 1000 option? I get that I need to bleed, so just trying to figure out how much and what my tradespace is. The turbo is electronically controlled at only 24% wastegate duty right now (turbo is spec'd for up to 1150hp), so aside from focusing on reliability and durability, there's nothing stopping me from turning it up just to brag about a Dragy time.

Tell it to me like I'm a 5 year old. If it is double the price for an extra 200hp ceiling, then I probably definitely don't require that. If it is only 1500-2k then that's something I get to think about since I don't ever plan to be here again. Until yesterday I planned on being limited to the stock engine, so this is all new to me.

Response from XAT:
Once the machine work is done and all parts are in, it can usually be fully assembled, crated, and shipped within a week.

I dont know if anyone has found the power limits of those parts yet. We estimate a very conservative 800 HP, though it likely can handle much more. It ultimately comes down to the tune at that point.

In any case, the transmission will be the limiting factor there. Your money would better be spent opting for our cams, springs, and retainers at that level, as the next steps further would be our billet mains caps and maybe sleeved/bored/stroked to anything up to 6.8 liters. All of that is a huge step and just for funsies, not actually necessary for your build. Or saving up for if/when the tranny goes out

 

Not trying to throw shade on you or Jesse - just trying to assess the failure for future proofing. We are men, we do that sort of thing. You just happen to be the guinea pig with the one-in-a-million side effects...



Not that it compares, but I remember when I had my truck for prolly less than year, and I decided to tear out the entire interior to add sound deadening. First new vehicle, (first vehicle that wasn't a fixer-upper, really), still had a car payment, trying to grow a business so money was TIGHT, sold our other two vehicles when buying the truck so it was our only vehicle, and I figured what the hey, it's a few bucks for sound deadening and some of my time. My wife kept giving me that look like 'what are you doing...?' even though I'd done it just about every other vehicle that we'd owned.

I spent Friday night and Saturday tearing it down, running my sound deadener, then putting it back together. Around midnight Saturday I jumped in to take it for a drive to see how much of a difference it made, cranked it over, and it roared to life! ...and immediately died...

Ooooohhhh.. you screwed up... you screwed up BAAADDDD...

Followed by....

I was afraid to even try turning it over again. Might have been more afraid to walk in to the house and tell my wife what I just did. haha. I was about ready to tear everything apart again and look for some wiring that I screwed up, or worse - call the dealer and ask for a trip on a flatbed. But it turns out these trucks do that sometimes when you disconnect the battery then hop in and crank it over. No idea why. But I got lucky and it fired up on the second try. But man oh man, I tell you what... Pucker factor times 10.

We got you.

 

Lots of decisions for sure. You'll definitely need to address the transmission if you go more.

 

I don't know how beneficial cams would be. On just about every other motor I've worked out, a new cam brings it to life and is decision number one. But @ViktorG made some custom cams (regrinds of stock cams, IIRC) and testing revealed virtually zero gain power. Maybe at higher power levels they would benefit, but with the VVT, I don't think camshafts are big limiting factor in output. Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable about that can chime in, but that's what I've gathered.

I'd jump on valve springs for sure. Valves may be worthwhile, too - both for heat and for flow. Again, I'm not sure what the flow limits of the heads look like, but for FI, that shouldn't be a huge issue either. So perhaps some lighter valves with more robust and heat-resistant metallurgical properties. I don't know what's available but I seem to recall some Lexus valves from the 5.0L V8?? I'd be surprised if there weren't stainless valves upgrades available.

Stroker kit - no. Unless you are made of money and need to spend it on something. Your excess boost should make up for that.

Billet caps... hmm... I'd like to know more about that. I'm assuming the help limit flex on the crank and entire block, which to me might be worthwhile, especially if they line bore with the new caps. Look at the 3rd gen main bearing issues; a forced induction small displacement motor making lots of horsepower puts more load on the main bearings than a large displacement NA motor (from what I'm told), which IMO is contributing to the failure issue. High boost and low RPM makes even more of a case. Stiffening up the bottom end might be worth the price if that's indeed what they do.

I've always upgraded the oil pump whenever I've built a motor, but all of my motors had oiling issues... haha. Don't know if that's even an issue with these motors. I would think not.

Else, I'm interested to see what others have to say, as well as what you go with. I suspect their "standard build" with some coatings would suffice.

 

Oh, none of the discussion has been taken as throwing shade. I don't think anyone looks at that oil drain photo and says that it was clearly the turbo, and I think the audience here understands enough about the add-on systems to recognize they operate independently in n support of a bigger goal. This is just what an epic failure of one of those situations looks like.

The biggest thing I can say is that this is the exact same AEM system that has been installed and functional since March of 2024. Something happened on Thursday morning that was dramatically different than every other time the vehicle has been started since March/April.

But, yeah... My head is still hanging low around the house this weekend.

 

Basic build details:

https://xatracing.com/XAT-3UR-full-build.html

Our "base" engine build handles 800 HP reliably, but we do have a variety of options that you should also consider. If you're not sure if you want them, keep in mind that it's much easier to spend a few extra bucks while we have it and it's apart, than it is to go back in later and add these parts!

Base build includes fully assembled engine, ready to drop in:

BC ARP2000 rods
Manley pistons, 10.0:1 compression ratio
Full OEM new engine gasket kit
All new timing parts (chain, guides, tensioners, etc.)
ACL rod/main bearings, OEM thrust washer
Block honing with torque plate
Hot tanked engine
XAT modified high performance oil pump
Ported intake/exhaust ports
Valve job
ARP head studs
ARP main studs
Heads bolted to block, timing set
New valve stem seals

 

My two cents, skip the top end stuff and just put a solid built short block in it. You aren’t building a race car. Forced induction helps make up for stock top end.

 

That’s the perfect build right there. I’d skip the ported ports but if it’s part of the standard build then it can’t hurt.

Just noticed the compression ratio. 10:1 is high for boosted applications. I figured they’d run 9:1 or something else. They know more than I do on these engines but that seems high from my experience.

 

I just need to get smarter on the options for each component, but from what I've been able to research and far, I agree it is a well sourced "basic". And seeing the scale makes me more comfortable finding a higher mileage core.

 

I wondered the same thing. But after thinking about it, on a street vehicle we are still expecting to spend the majority of our time at cruise out of boost. So a little more compression would still be desirable for efficiency and power when not in boost. At least that’s how I see it.

 

That makes sense.

 

I spent 2k on forged rotating assembly on the BMW after the melted piston, If you are building IMHO forged is the way.