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Premium gas for 2021 TRD Pro?

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by Nflguy, Apr 6, 2023.

  1. Apr 7, 2023 at 9:04 AM
    #31
    eagleguy

    eagleguy New Member

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    I have run 87 and 91-93 in my Tundra a few times on a complete fill up. Never noticed any difference.
     
  2. Apr 7, 2023 at 11:28 AM
    #32
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    So your inability to understand other's explanations about the subject makes them dumb and you smart? I don't get the connection, but if that makes you feel better about it run with it. This discussion gets off track when people use power instead of efficiency as the potential benefit of higher octane fuel. The 5.7 DOES knock on 87, thus the ECU pulling timing when the knock sensor senses detonation. Fuel - air - ignition - timing is what makes engines run. If those things are out of whack it won't run as efficiently. ECUs will retard timing to make up for poor fuel or air to protect the engine, which cuts power across the band, its that simple. Will the gains create noticeable increases in felt power or MPGs? Probably, maybe, who knows? But there are plenty of real world tests done on all sorts of engines, not just the Toyota 5.7, its been discussed and proven multiple times that there are gains to be had. On a street driven truck that doesn't tow or haul a lot, maybe that's not worth it for some. On a heavy use vehicle that does tow or haul heavy loads, those gains are absolutely worth it. In a simple cost-benefit analysis the data is there. Its not an if, its whether the obvious increase in efficiency is worth the $8 per fill-up. Some decide its a waste of their money, some think its worth the extra couple hundred bucks a year. If you won't be convinced that's on you, no one is trying to convince you, its your truck and your money. But to say its does nothing is just incorrect.
     
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  3. Apr 7, 2023 at 11:42 AM
    #33
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    This is a great comparison point, and since you have both vehicles you have real world knowledge on the subject. I don't think its as cut and dry as the final power numbers on a dyno though. I've never seen a dyno sheet on how Toyota/Lexus came up with these numbers, but I'd be willing to bet the Lexus spec gets higher numbers sooner and makes better power across the band, while the Toyota spec chugs along as the ECU pulls timing as load increases. They may end up at the same place at the end of the day, but the Lexus will do it with a better powerband and more efficiently. Its probably not a dramatic difference, but I'd be curious to see the data on both specs. Back to my previous statement about marketing, premium brand vs regular brand vehicles, bean counters vs engineers. Someone made a decision about the subject at some point, Lexus got the premium fuel recommendation, Toyota got the regular fuel recommendation. Engineers get a win, bean counters get a win, and Toyota gets to massage its CAFE numbers accordingly.
     
  4. Apr 7, 2023 at 12:27 PM
    #34
    OHwendTrd

    OHwendTrd Aging Member

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    Per the thread title, doesth thou opinion apply? :boink: two different engines.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2023
  5. Apr 7, 2023 at 12:33 PM
    #35
    OHwendTrd

    OHwendTrd Aging Member

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    Agreed, a lot of brain power in this thread. I can't afford 93, so 87 it is! Guess in a few hundred thousand miles I'll deal with my rash decisions.
     
  6. Apr 7, 2023 at 1:04 PM
    #36
    RichterScale

    RichterScale I identify as a potato

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    So, the typical 10:1 compression engine is always suffering from pre-detonation, therefore the ECU is always pulling the timing back, therefore it always loses out on max potential output. So, by running higher octane, there's no pre-detonation, therefore the ECU doesn't retard timing, therefore you're not losing power like when you run 87.
    Interesting.
    Seems awful complicated and a lot of programming and hoops to jump through, just to be able to run 87 octane, when, according to what many are saying, is an engine designed to run at least 91.
    And now that I think about it:
    When I turn my nannies off, turn on tow/haul and turn the PC to sport +2,....wouldn't I get a ton of pre-detonation, which would make the ECU retard timing and basically cancel all that out?
    And what about the 10-15% ethanol that's in all the 87 octane? Isn't ethanol more resistant to pre-detonation? Isn't 87 @15% ethanol about the same resistance as 91?
     
  7. Apr 7, 2023 at 2:00 PM
    #37
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr guzzling dealer repellent

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    I’m thinking if I put premium fuel in the Tundra, its 3UR-FE would enjoy the same whopping 0.52% increase in HP and 0.49% increase in torque that the Lexus 3UR-FE makes on premium. :headbang:

    I went back and forth with 91 and 87 in the LX. I couldn’t perceive any definitive difference. Lots of Mudders have been running 87 in their LXs for many many many miles. Like @OHwendTrd I guess I’ll pay the price in another 150k miles.
     
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  8. Apr 7, 2023 at 2:08 PM
    #38
    Hbjeff

    Hbjeff New Member

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    When i was in either WY or South Dakota,

    i noticed that 85 octane said contains zero ethanol, while 87 had ethanol. Really made me wonder.
     
  9. Apr 7, 2023 at 7:44 PM
    #39
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    Yeah, like I said, its probably not a huge or noticeable difference in day to day driving. I bet if you hooked a 6000lb trailer to either vehicle you may notice a difference. Running 87 is not not damaging in any way, its just not getting the full performance its capable of.
     
  10. Apr 7, 2023 at 8:21 PM
    #40
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr guzzling dealer repellent

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    Yeah, I’m saying it’s definitely not a huge difference. By Lexus’s own numbers. They rate the 3UR-FE at 383hp/403ft-lb on 91 octane. Toyota rates it at 381hp/401ft-lb on 87 octane. I don’t think you’re gonna be able to feel that gain of 0.52% and 0.49% respectively, pulling 6k lbs or not.
     
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  11. Apr 7, 2023 at 8:24 PM
    #41
    CTundraForMe

    CTundraForMe New Member

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    <shrug>

    I notice a difference.
     
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  12. Apr 7, 2023 at 8:38 PM
    #42
    V10Ace

    V10Ace New Member

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    As a fellow '21 TRD Pro owner, I only put the good stuff in when I need to smoke one of them bass mouth Tundras.
     
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  13. Apr 7, 2023 at 8:40 PM
    #43
    FrenchToasty

    FrenchToasty The Desert rat, 6 lug enthusiast

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    None
     
  14. Apr 7, 2023 at 9:16 PM
    #44
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    Again, you're fixated on the peak HP/TQ numbers, which doesn't tell the whole tale. The numbers across the entire powerband are likely higher and sooner on the Lexus. And again, we're only talking a few ponies and lb-ft between the two, but its more than just the numbers. Under load I'll take the additional timing, which equals less loss of power as the ECU attempts to prevent detonation. I do pull a trailer with my truck, so I'll take every additional benefit I can get. The cost between 87 and 91 is not that significant.
     
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  15. Apr 7, 2023 at 9:40 PM
    #45
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    Your first statement is basically correct.

    As far as your nannies and tow/haul and PC, they don't add power or advance/retard timing, all they do is change the mapping to increase throttle response sooner in the pedal stroke. Two different things, none related to the engine output.

    Most fuel has had around 10% ethanol in it for a while now, so we're still comparing apples to apples when talking 87 vs 91.
     
  16. Apr 7, 2023 at 10:27 PM
    #46
    Larly5000

    Larly5000 Local Scumbag

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    I don't know which thread is more entertaining…

    “It runs better on 91” or “0w-20 is so much quieter than 5w-20”

    :burnrubber:
     
  17. Apr 7, 2023 at 11:06 PM
    #47
    Y0TA PR0

    Y0TA PR0 Dirt biking & fishing

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    Lol. I think 91 goes better with 5W-20 and 87 is better with 0W-20
     
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  18. Apr 7, 2023 at 11:10 PM
    #48
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    I've never seen that oil debate, its usually between 0w20 and 0w30.
     
  19. Apr 8, 2023 at 12:15 AM
    #49
    Hbjeff

    Hbjeff New Member

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    Doesnt tow/haul just increase the shift point so the first 3 gears are held longer
     
  20. Apr 8, 2023 at 5:53 AM
    #50
    Terndrerrr

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    :rofl::cheers:
     
  21. Apr 8, 2023 at 5:53 AM
    #51
    PomDad

    PomDad we having snacks?

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    One of y'all should do a blind study - have your partner fill up your truck with either reg/prem and not tell you which. If you can consistently tell the difference in octane, then you can color me impressed.

    The placebo effect doesn't apply just to pills haha
     
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  22. Apr 8, 2023 at 6:00 AM
    #52
    Terndrerrr

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    That's a good idea: blind test the next 8 tanks of fuel in a 5.7L truck. 4 tanks of 87, and 4 tanks of 91. Same kind of gas. Keep all other factors the same (load in the truck, psi on the tires, etc). If someone can get it right every single time from driving feel alone, I will believe them.

    I went back to 91 a couple different times in my LX and I'm not confident that I was feeling anything other than the placebo effect. The minuscule benefit–whether at peak numbers or not–was negligible at best.
     
  23. Apr 8, 2023 at 6:09 AM
    #53
    Retired...finally

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    Excellent idea. I know for a fact that every vehicle I've ever owned runs better, rides smoother and picks up more chicks after a wash & wax job.:bananadance:
     
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  24. Apr 8, 2023 at 8:47 AM
    #54
    RichterScale

    RichterScale I identify as a potato

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    The truck?
     
  25. Apr 8, 2023 at 10:35 AM
    #55
    OnespeedTRD

    OnespeedTRD New Member

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    I think everyone is missing the point here. To deny your engine is running stronger and more efficiently because you can't "feel" it in the seat is ignoring the facts. I bet most couldn't feel the difference in 5 psi of air in your tires either, but there would still be a measurable difference in MPG, load bearing capacity, handling, etc. We're talking small degrees of difference here, not like supercharged vs NA or adding a 100 shot of nitrous. No one is claiming huge gains here, but there is a difference.

    I forgot how boring this conversation is, some folks just refuse to accept the logic and facts presented and die on the hill of "I can't feel the difference, or Toyota says 87". At the end of the day, its an individual decision, neither is 100% right or 100% wrong. The data is out there, do what you will with it and fill 'er up with 87 or 91 accordingly.
     
  26. Apr 8, 2023 at 12:17 PM
    #56
    PomDad

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    But are these gains worth the extra ~$0.50/gal? Especially on a truck with poor fuel economy like a Tundra. Like, I don't doubt there's some small gain in efficiency running prem vs reg (maybe a few extra miles per tank?), but if it is only a small gain then wouldn't it make more sense to fill up with regular a few miles earlier?

    True, ultimately, do what you want with your money. I just find your "logic and facts" a bit flimsy, at best.
     
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  27. Apr 8, 2023 at 1:34 PM
    #57
    art64

    art64 New Member

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    I used to have DAP tune. I swtiched to vf tuner. There are questionable statements from DAP. Like removing torque management. It's impossible cause it is part of the calibration the ecu uses to do its thing. You can modify the torque tables to provide more torque at lower rpm with specific octane rating gas.
    Also, after awhile of driving your truck "normally" or less agressive in accelerating, it will revert back to its stock behavior. So you need to drive it agressively once in awhile to keep it "alive." VF tuner--it's always alive. You can drive like a granny the whole year and the power and torque will still be there when you stomp on it. Actually, no need to stomp on it as it is always there. The ecu is re-calibrated and the transmission shifting also.
     
  28. Apr 8, 2023 at 1:50 PM
    #58
    RichterScale

    RichterScale I identify as a potato

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    These highly technical discussions go way better when everyone involved is shit-faced.
     
  29. Apr 8, 2023 at 1:51 PM
    #59
    Terndrerrr

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    Here you go:
    AAA PREMIUM FUEL RESEARCH: Proprietary research into the use of premium octane gasoline when not required by the manufacturer

    They record the differences in 87 vs 93 octane in three vehicles, one of which is a 5.7L Tundra. :)

    Results (page 4):

    1. Does an engine designed to operate on Regular gasoline produce more horsepower when operated on Premium?
    No consistent differences in maximum horsepower were recorded.

    2.
    Does an engine designed to operate on Regular gasoline get better fuel economy when operated on Premium?
    No significant differences in fuel economy were recorded.

    3.
    Does an engine designed to operate on Regular gasoline produce fewer tailpipe emissions when operated on Premium?
    No consistent differences were recorded.

    Other notes:
    • The Tundra recorded -0.30% city fuel economy on 93 (14.875mpg on 87 vs 14.830mpg on 93)
    • The Tundra recorded 0.91% better highway fuel economy on 93 (20.945mpg on 87 vs 21.135mpg on 93).
    • The Tundra recorded -1.51% HP with 93 octane.

    ====================

    This is consistent with my “butt dyno” feeling when going between 91 and 87 in my LX (same 3UR-FE engine). Here are my findings again, just so it’s all in one spot:
    • Too small of a difference to tell by feel.
    • Negligible actual difference.
    • Poor return on investment (negligible change for around +20-30% on cost).

    Subjectively, do whatever you like. Unless you can tell me that most high mileage 5.7L Tundras (300k, 500k, the million milers, etc) ran on premium only, I don’t really think you have an objective leg to stand on.
     
  30. Apr 8, 2023 at 2:11 PM
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    Eagleye

    Eagleye New Member

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    Fresh gas is best, I’m guessing 87 octane easily outsells 91. I decided to use nothing but regular in the Tundra since first fill, runs great!
     
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