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Mushy brake pedal but brakes work fine...

Discussion in '1st Gen Tundras (2000-2006)' started by marbleville, May 3, 2019.

  1. May 1, 2022 at 3:39 AM
    #91
    Gen1tom

    Gen1tom New Member

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    Well I have manually adjusted my rear drums several times and it never made a difference for me.
     
  2. May 5, 2022 at 1:14 PM
    #92
    rock climber

    rock climber New Member

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    Have you tried adjusting the LSPV? Is your truck lifted?
     
  3. May 5, 2022 at 2:05 PM
    #93
    Aerindel

    Aerindel New Member

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    Yes....thats because manually adjusting doesn't work very well. Thats why you fix the auto adjusters. Thats the whole point.
     
  4. May 7, 2022 at 3:37 PM
    #94
    Gen1tom

    Gen1tom New Member

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    My truck is not lifted rock climber. I ended up bleeding all the lines, adjusting the rear shoes using the method someone on here suggested. (Pulling the drums and adjusting the clicker until I couldn't get the drum back over the shoes, then back it off a little). I also greased up the slide pins on the front brake pads. It did help significantly. We'll see how long it stays that way.
     
  5. May 9, 2022 at 9:44 AM
    #95
    rock climber

    rock climber New Member

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    I'd still adjust the LSPV, it helps soooooo much. Since it's not lifted, you don't need a bracket.
     
  6. May 10, 2022 at 5:34 AM
    #96
    Gen1tom

    Gen1tom New Member

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    Could someone please describe exactly where the LSPV is located on a gen 1 Tundra? I'm sure I'll have to start spraying it down with penitrating oil for a few days before I even think about adjusting it. My truck is rusted bad.
     
  7. May 10, 2022 at 5:39 AM
    #97
    shifty`

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  8. Aug 19, 2023 at 4:02 PM
    #98
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Interesting thread. Brakes were working fine on my 06 double cab, but it was time to overhaul them so ended up with new front lines, new pads, blasted and painted the front discs, turned the discs on my lathe. Blasted the calipers (with the pistons in but taped off), tore them down to clean out any grit and check the seals, painted the calipers, put it all back together with grease and anti-seize in all the right places....etc., etc. Rear drum(s) warped so not turnable, so all new drums, pads, springs etc. Parking brake correctly adjusted with new arms and short cables etc. etc. Stripped, blasted, painted and greased the pivot for the parking brake cable which mounts on the rear axle housing. One reason the parking break never worked properly was that pivot being frozen solid preventing the cable from equalizing. Same treatment for the mechanism that actuates the LSPV. Valve arm moves, though perhaps not as easily as it should(?)

    So having set the stage with all that, I 'm bleeding both rear brakes and the LSPV but can only get a trickle of fluid. Have tried using a MightyVac and also a home-made BMC pressurization system at 20psi (not at the same time).

    Last trick was to pressurize the BMC and crack the collars on the ABS unit; got some fluid out, but no obvious bubbling etc.

    I'm tempted to give the LSPV the same treatment, but have no reason to think it's not working, so just cleaned the crud off and am soaking all threads in penetrating fluid in case I have to remove the unit.

    So the consensus is these trucks cannot do an auto-bleed with a suitable OBDII scan tool?

    And at the outset, before disconnecting anything, I removed the filler cap and cut a piece of pond liner to go over the BMC filling port and clamped it down with a plate washer over it. The idea being to avoid leakage at the lines by preventing air entering the system at the top. Seemed to work quite well: not much fluid loss.

    Any comments or suggestions welcome!
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2023
  9. Aug 19, 2023 at 4:18 PM
    #99
    assassin10000

    assassin10000 New Member

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    Try bleeding the rear with the truck running. I had a soft pedal until I did so. Vacuum bleeding, 15psi pressure bleed or both at the same time didn't work. Even my brother in law pumping the pedal off wasn't enough.

    The extra assistance from power brakes working makes a big difference.
     
  10. Aug 19, 2023 at 5:23 PM
    #100
    Cheap'nCheerful

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    ' Appreciate the tip, but didn't work for me, with or without the pedal depressed and engine running all I got was the usual dribble from the bleeders. Didn't try pressurizing the BMC with engine running - at least not today! ABS light is on so will get out the BlueDriver and see what that says.

    Also put the MightVac on the BMC bleeder valve. Why it is 8mm like the LSPV instead of 10mm like the wheel bleeders is anyone's guess! Got nothing out of that one, but removed it entirely for a look and lots of clear (new) fluid in the hole and dripping out.

    One good thing about pressurizing the BMC via the filling port is you can tell by loss of pressure if you have a leak somewhere at the start. Of course the most likely place for the leak is somewhere in the pressure pot and lines - spray bottle of soapy water for that??
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2023
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  11. Aug 19, 2023 at 9:37 PM
    #101
    HBTundra

    HBTundra New Member

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    Gawd .. . I'm diggin in this week to replace the rusted bell crank adjusters on my 2006 DC . . . having 2nd thoughts about it now.
    Seems I may be in over my head.
     
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  12. Aug 20, 2023 at 2:01 AM
    #102
    w666

    w666 D. None of the above

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    It's easy...just do one side at a time.
     
  13. Aug 20, 2023 at 2:07 AM
    #103
    w666

    w666 D. None of the above

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    I bought 4 new OEM bleeders, and of course the first one I tried to replace was a different size. Apparently someone changed out one of the rear cylinders with aftermarket, thus the different bleeder.

    Point is that the bleeders can get plugged up with rust and road stuff. Maybe that's what's goin' on here?
     
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  14. Aug 21, 2023 at 3:48 PM
    #104
    Tim Berframe

    Tim Berframe New Member

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    I have the same thing with my 2006. I overhauled everything and got good brakes now but the peddle feels soft compared to my other vehicles.

    Choose your scan tool carefully. I paid over $1000 for a Launch X431 and it does NOT do the Toyota ABS bleed. It is missing a lot of Toyota features.

    I think the Aisin original master cylinders are rebuildable. I seen the internal rubber kit for like $35 somewhere online.
     
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  15. Aug 21, 2023 at 4:08 PM
    #105
    Aerindel

    Aerindel New Member

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    I never had any trouble bleeding mine the old fashioned way...just saying....its possible. I did do it in the recommended order.
     
  16. Aug 21, 2023 at 5:26 PM
    #106
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Not in my case, I pulled them all, cleaned out the holes with a suitable drill turned by hand, got a suitable dental pick into the actual bleed port on the inboard end of the bleeder, then ran them through my ultrasonic cleaner. Last of all I cleaned off any rust with a fine wire wheel in a bench grinder.

    The system is problematical though: the farther you open the bleeder the easier it is for air to leak in via the threads and fool you into thinking you're bleeding air out of the system. One option might be small O rings around the bleeder valve threads, pushed up against the shoulders of the holes. Problem is those are usually rusty and filthy and wouldn't seal well anyway.

    The grease as a temporary seal idea works sometimes I guess, but if you put the grease on before you open the bleeder, the farther you open it the more likely you just create a leak through the grease.

    I wonder if there is room for some teflon tape around the threads of the bleeder?

    That's encouraging. Some videos do say to bleed starting farthest from the ABS unit rather than the BMC. Didn't help in my case. Next step is to pull the front wheels and double-check the new brake lines. No obvious leaks when the system was pressurized from the BMC fill port, but probably that doesn't guarantee anything.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2023
  17. Aug 21, 2023 at 7:50 PM
    #107
    Aerindel

    Aerindel New Member

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    In theory, you should only ever be closing the bleeder screw, under positive pressure, so it shouldn't matter if the threads are leaking, as they are only leaking out.
     
  18. Aug 21, 2023 at 8:45 PM
    #108
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Or at least with a good, solid stream of fluid coming out when you close it. I agree, the systems are really designed to operate with positive pressure from the BMC end. Only ways to get that are pumping the brakes or pressurize via the BMC filling port. One guy on YT was smart: rather than pressurizing a small pot with brake fluid in it, he made up a pressurization system where the pot was just a reservoir of fluid and the pressure was supplied continuously from his compressor via an air fitting AFTER going through a small moisture filter and a small spray gun regulator fitted at the pot end, to ensure he didn't over-pressurize the system or the pot.

    Having a pot full of brake fluid go "bang" near your truck would be a very bad day, so no old or over-sun-exposed pots need apply! ;-) If in any doubt it might be good to have a pressurized garden hose nearby for a quick wash down if your pot cracks and sprays brake fluid around.
     
  19. Aug 30, 2023 at 4:32 PM
    #109
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Got the help of a friend the other day and we spent some time doing a traditional bleed with him pumping up pressure via 10-20 strokes of the pedal and me doing a one second or less cracking of the bleeder for each wheel and LSPV. We thought we had it beat, but as soon as the engine was started, pedal turned to mush again.

    Bought a new vacuum bleeder and just spent some time repeatedly bleeding the LSPV. I suspect the issue is leakage around the bleeders and around the push-on fitting supplied with the vacuum bleeder. Getting clouds of fine bubbles which probably means a leak there rather than air out of the lines.

    Don't try pushing on the end of the push-on fitting on your bleeder hose to improve the seal as I did, until I realized was just sealing the port on the bleeder by doing so.:rolleyes: There really is no way to improve the seal around the bleeder except grease around the base or anti-seize on the threads (probably the better option.)

    Brakes would be mushy on the first push after this procedure (engine off), but would firm up very well on the second push and stay that way until the engine was started: then back to square one: almost no resistance!

    No sound of fluid sloshing in the MC housing when the truck is rocked anyway.
     
  20. Aug 30, 2023 at 4:48 PM
    #110
    Aerindel

    Aerindel New Member

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    Are you REALLY sure your auto adjusters are working? I just say this because after replacing my rear brakes, and spending and afternoon repeatedly bleeding them, with no change.....it was only taking the time and really fixing the parking brake that fixed the problem.

    I would manually adjust them TOO TIGHT....(until you can't move the star anymore) and see how your brakes feel. If tightening them down, 'fixes' the problem, you know it's not a bleeding problem, its an adjustment problem.

    I would then manually back of the rear brakes 10 or so clicks, and then have someone work the parking brake and while your under the truck watching the star wheel on the brakes and make sure that its tightening back down. You should see the star move 1-2 teeth with every application of the parking brake, until it stops and then only wiggles 1/2 a tooth or so and won't move any more.

    The 'window' on our brakes between adjusted too loose, and a mushy brake pedal, and too tight, and overheating drums....is very narrow and hard to get manually, but will happen automatically if your parking brake works. Because its a narrow window, it doesn't take very much slack in the parking brake to keep it from getting the critical last click on the wheel it needs.

    If your parking brake will not bring your truck to a hard stop when applied, its not working properly. It should slow you down about as fast a medium pressure normal brake press.
     
  21. Aug 30, 2023 at 5:26 PM
    #111
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Interesting thought thanks, but if it was just the adjustment of the star wheels why would I get good pedal resistance sometimes and not others?

    In particular good pressure (confirmed by repeated pressing on the pedal) suddenly disappears after starting the engine?
     
  22. Aug 30, 2023 at 5:31 PM
    #112
    shifty`

    shifty` Is the Gila Copter a love machine?

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    Yes, you will get mushy pedal if the rear brakes aren't adjusted properly. This is so well known there's an entire sticky thread on this forum dedicated to it. I may've mentioned this before in this very same thread, I dunno. I feel like we say it too often because people just DO NOT want to believe it for some reason.

    Are you 100% positive the rears are adjusted so that, with the truck off, and the rear wheel jacked up, you're getting some resistance while spinning?

    Also, what happens if you - with the truck off - press the pedal repeatedly, does the pedal slowly stiffen up, and stay stiff?

    EDIT: Here's the rear brake adjustment sticky thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/rear-brake-adjustment-theory-and-practice.99575/
     
  23. Aug 30, 2023 at 5:43 PM
    #113
    Aerindel

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    Thats because brakes always feel much harder without the vacuum boost than with it. That is the whole purpose of the brake booster, to take away a lot of the effort of pressing the brake. Have you ever driven an old car with no brake booster? It makes any modern brake feel mushy by comparison. Its why even on a normal car with normal brakes, if you push in the pedal with all your force without the engine running, it only goes down a little ways, but start the car, and it goes to the floor.

    I'm not saying for sure adjustment is your problem....its just that brakes out of adjustment, will perfectly mimic brakes that need to be bled. Until you completely eliminate that adjustment issue, you won't be able to know if its a hydraulic problem or not and could end up spending a lot of time bleeding brakes over and over again and never make it better.
     
  24. Aug 31, 2023 at 8:51 AM
    #114
    Cheap'nCheerful

    Cheap'nCheerful New Member

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    Put the rear axle up on stands again and adjusted the star wheels so the shoes were *just about* touching with the parking brake off - this is with the wheels still on BTW.

    It's surprising how few clicks make the difference: even just two or three. PB is now grabbing hard even at maybe 60% of travel. Cables are slack at the axle when brake is off though.

    Pedal is still mushy, but thanks for the reminder to readjust the star wheels.:thumbsup:

    My ABS light is on but an Innova and a BlueDriver OBDII scanners don't pull any codes.

    Jumping across pins might be necessary soon. Not clear if this just resets the ABS warning light or the ABS unit as well?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD1V6pv2ej0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR9UaVDwCzs
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2023
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  25. Aug 31, 2023 at 9:01 AM
    #115
    shifty`

    shifty` Is the Gila Copter a love machine?

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    IIRC, that should be pretty easy to adjust out.

    Curiosity more than anything here: When did the pedal become mushy? Did it follow any specific event, maintenance, accident, repair, upgrade?

    And also, when you get into the truck, key out of the ignition, and you press the pedal fully down 8-10 times, what happens, stay consistent, firm up?

    After removing/reinstalling my front passenger strut and separating/reattaching my UBJ recently, I noticed I'm losing vacuum or something, pedal is hard if the truck sits for more than 20-30 minutes. Possibly my booster check valve is shot, but no clue how the hell it would've happened magically after that with only 75k miles total on the clock. But prior to that, if I sat in the truck with it off, multiple pedal depresses, it'd firm up within 4-5 presses (if I remember).

    My pedal has always been slow to engage when running, though, like, I don't start feeling any grab until the pedal is about 25% down, and the grab is slow at first, them ramps up as I get closer to the 50% depress mark. The other two 1st Gens I've now driven were similar. But I haven't driven a Double Cab like yours yet. And I haven't driven in one that has this setup, which is supposed to be a nightmare - is that the same setup your DCab has?
     
  26. Aug 31, 2023 at 10:55 AM
    #116
    Cheap'nCheerful

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    Yes, I'm going to leave the cable as is for now as that and the position of the stop screws on the arms show me that the shoes are not pressing on the drums.

    No key in and pumping: the pedal is soft on first push or two then firms up maybe even to normal and stays that way on further pumping (did 15 strokes to try it)

    This all began with front pad replacement. Even though I capped off the BMC filler port to prevent air entering and fluid running out when lines & calipers were removed. I ended up doing a bunch of other work as per post #98 above.

    Never had any brake issues before this.

    No, I don't have that canister or button on the dash.
     
  27. Aug 31, 2023 at 11:45 AM
    #117
    assassin10000

    assassin10000 New Member

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    Did you try having the truck running while bleeding the rears and lspv?
     
  28. Aug 31, 2023 at 11:54 AM
    #118
    Festerw

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    Silly question. Have you verified you've got the calipers on the correct sides?

    I've done it and with the bleeders on the bottom you'll never get a solid pedal.
     
  29. Aug 31, 2023 at 6:28 PM
    #119
    Aerindel

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    This is what I'm always trying to get at with the rear brake system....its a much finer adjustment than people assume. It has to apply a huge amount of pressure....over a very small distance....if that distance is too large....the system runs out of pressure before its taken up the slack.

    Getting this adjustment right is so tricky, there is literally NO procedure in the factory service manual for doing it manually. The procedure is to adjust the parking brake to spec, and then let the automatic system do it for you. The adjustment star is ONLY accessible because you need to be able to back of the shoes, to remove the drums.

    Cables should not be slack. Stop screws should NOT be touching the stops, there should be a .4-.8 MM gap. Brake shoes should be contact with the drums, but with virtually no pressure.

    If you had to manually adjust your shoes, to make the parking brake work....then by definition, your auto-adjuster system is was not working....this system cannot work if there is ANY slack in the system. All the cables have to be tight, all the levers have to move.

    I don't want to sound like a broken record. But until you test the brakes pedal with all the slack out of the rear brakes, you cannot eliminate them from the problem.

    When I did my rear brakes, I accidentally let the master drain out by gravity until the reservoir was empty, filling the whole system with air. I bled the brakes half a dozen times, to no effect. I manually adjusted the rear shoes until I 'thought' they where just barely touching. No effect. I was pretty frustrated.

    I then set the rear brakes, as per the factory service manual (using the parking brake, which I had to repair and adjust) and instantly the brakes where working properly. Never messed with the ABS, never did a vacuum bleed. Just bled the system out, in order, the old fashioned way, with a bit of tubing and a jar. The bleeding probably worked the first time....but after that I wasn't feeling mush from air in the line, I was really feeling mush from mechanical slack in the rear drums.

    If you don't want to fix the parking brake system, tighten the rear shoes until they won't tighten anymore, then see how the pedal feels. This will be a click or two too tight for driving, but its the only way to know you've actually bottomed the shoes out and any mush you are feeling is hydraulic, rather than mechanical

    Screen Shot 2023-08-31 at 7.00.38 PM.png
     
  30. Sep 1, 2023 at 7:00 PM
    #120
    jake22si

    jake22si New Member

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    Does this truck have a proportioning valve? Took me a while to fix mushy brakes on my 2000, I don't remember ever having to bleed a proportioning valve but mine has a bleeder on it and I've had good brakes since.
     
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