LBJ failures?

Hey, new to the forum..
Driving a 2006 4X4 double cab, 149k miles on it, recently did timing/water pump/plugs/air filter as soon as I got it home.

looking to get some other preventative maintenance done, and the LBJ seems to be the Achilles heel by design.

can we get some pics of the failures of LBJ’s to see more on the how’s and why’s?

is this more related to overtorque on the 4 bolts and the bolts being too weak of a grade?

or loose bolts that have play and then shear under twisting forces..

or the shaft of the ball joint shearing..

etc?

would like to know the exact points of failure and any potential work arounds.

also, anyone looked into ARP hardware to upgrade over stock?

thanks
Cody C (newbie)

 

The scary part, in the Facebook groups, there's been lots of reports of OEM lbjs failing after 10, 20, 30,000 miles. A lot of them are on stock suspension and tires. Wondering if there's an X Factor that we could figure out, maybe another part that needs to also be replaced that people are neglecting.

 

Lots of threads on this. Look at @shifty`s first gen thread.

don’t know how to tag / summon another member.

 

I personally haven't looked into the hows and whys of ball joint failure a ton. But I can tell you that my LBJ failed due to the joint itself being very worn and the ball and socket separating. I believe there have also been cases of the bolts snapping, but since I haven't experienced that and don't know much about it, I'm not going to say too much about it. Don't want to steer you in the wrong direction.

The ball joint design was carried from the previous T100 trucks, which had torsion springs that were connected to the upper control arms. This meant that the ball part of the joint was always being pushed into the socket, so they wouldn't separate, even when very worn. Our trucks have coil springs mounted to the lower control arm, so the ball part of the joint is always trying to pull out of the socket. It was a poor design choice on Toyota's part.

There are high strength bolt options, which were tested and that can be seen in this thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/spiker-engineering-lower-ball-joint-bolt-test-1st-gen.111746/ I haven't used these and haven't needed them, but I'm not the one to be giving advice on the bolts.

This thread is mostly based around the uniball LBJs that Total Chaos makes, but there's also a lot of good info in there: https://www.tundras.com/threads/uniball-lbj-conversion.122880/#post-3188521

A ton of LBJ info you need to know is in the "Maintenance and Parts" section in this thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/ Read this thread if you haven't. It's a big read but there's an incredible amount of good information in there.

Bottom line: An OEM LBJ is going to be your safest option, unless you are doing some serious offroad stuff. The OEM joints can last a very long time if they are taken care of and replaced when worn. Just pay attention to them. The OEM LBJ hype is very very real.

 

Very helpful, the carry over from the T-100 which used upper torsion bars makes sense (as to why and how this problem was born) and a giant over sight by toyota's engineers. Someone should have gotten fired (or fireing squad) over that one. I'm sure there is more than a few fatalities or major injuries that have occured from this.

The ARP link is helpful, I'm just pondering some sort of safety strap (like a metal bracket attached with two ARP bolts) that would catch or contain the LBJ in a situation of sudden failure.

 

So the deal there is that the LBJ is also part of the steering and any type of "bracket" would interfere with wheel movement. More so, The LBJ is actually holding up the weight of the truck itself which is why force is always being applied down to pull it out.

 

I agree, absolutely, and I’m sure I’m not the first to think about reinventing the wheel.

I’ve been pondering this a lot the last few days…

next spring I’d like to put in a small lift, 555 LBJ, aftermarket UCA’s sand blast and paint the knuckle and LCA. Maybe bushings and probably TRE.

im thinking to get it in Jack stands and pull the coil/shock and see what kind of clearances I would need while cycling it up down and left right and see if something could work as essentially a safety strap

Edit: the pivot point for the LBJ is obviously at the top, any kind of safety strap would take that into consideration as there is a fairly large orbit at the castle nut/bolt end

 

Why a 555 LBJ? Honestly just curious, you seem like you've done research. Everyone goes with an OEM LBJ. OEM stuff is expensive but there is seriously significant quality differences between OEM and others.

Also, a safety strap would need to be made of some pretty hefty material to keep the wheel in place. When my LBJ went it ruined a lot of stuff. CV axle, brake lines, upper joint, etc. I mean, it's holding up the weight of the truck.

 

Anyone that uses a ball joint in tension has never been grabbed by the short hairs. Theres a big market if someone built a knuckle & lca that used the lbj in compression. For all the right reasons. Toyota was just stupid.

@solomotorsports
@camberg
@everyoneelse

 

THIS and also the fact that anything designed to keep it in place (or against the knuckle) would interfere with suspension travel.

 

Its not hard.

spot the difference.

 

My thought was that Sankei (555 marked) was an OEM replacement part, but if there is AISIN or Denso parts I usually go with that. Who is the toyota OEM manufacturer for this part then?

I understand what you are saying on a strap needing to be strong. I'm thinking flat bar, but possibly I just build with construction paper till I find something that clears, and then get it cut out with waterjet (I work with AutoCAD).

It may be bent around and then overlapping metal welded, but like I said I need to check all clearances first to prove if its possible, and if its possible I may have to move to a larger diameter wheel even (need to check).

The purpose isn't to prevent a failure, so much as to prevent a failure from having catastrophic consequences (roll over /crash) in that it just needs to contain things till getting off the road.

On a sidenote, I just ordered a waterjet aluminum skid/cat protector. I'll pick it up tomorrow and see if I got the dimensions right over the weekend.

The comment about a better solution (LBJ in compression vs. tension) I agree with, the only solution I'd want to look it that could be cost effective and in numbers would probably be a machined part similar to part #17 in the link https://www.oemproparts.ca/oem-parts/toyota-steering-knuckle-432120c012?c=bT0xJmw9MiZuPVJlY29tbWVuZGVkIFByb2R1Y3RzJms9MQ==

And then swap arms right to left (so the LCA is offset above at the tip instead of below), ream it with a TRE reamer, and then weld tabs for the shock/coil to it.

Fabricating/machining a part as per above link (part #17) would have to have the TRE arm/bracket on it as per the original LBJ, and still have the bolt shear risks.

This would move the pivot point downwards (which decreases leverage on the LBJ actually) so it would have to shift outwards like 1/8" to keep original geometry, and it may require larger wheels.

Edit: the above image shows a LBJ in compression, not sure how its relevant unless you were recommending a second gen.

 

I saw on a facebook group recently where someone has done exactly what you are talking about. Put a metal strap under the ball joint to prevent total separation upon failure. I'll see if I can find the picture.

 

I looked for the pic, too but thought it was a 2wd 4500-5500 gm.

 

There are tons of parts out there for our trucks labelled as "OEM replacements". Don't be fooled! These parts replace the OEM part with a non-OEM part, instead of substituting an OEM part with another OEM.

I'm not sure what the OEM manufacturer is for our LBJs but you likely won't save much trying to buy them from direct from the manufacturer. Check Toyota's website, this thread is a fantastic guide to figuring out how to use Toyota's confusing website: https://www.tundras.com/threads/howto-use-the-toyota-parts-system-to-find-order-parts.113808/

Just whatever you do, do NOT buy an OEM part from Amazon, ebay, or walmart. These sites are full of OEM knockoffs and can't be trusted.

 

I think if you open a box with a toyota on the box label, you may find a part with "toyoda" or "denso" or "Aisin" or "timken" etc on it...

I prefer toyota on the box, but for the same part ordered a few years later, it may have timken on the part you buy today for example, but will now have "koyo" etc. on it a few years from now.

A while ago I think I read that sakei (555) was on the OEM replacment knuckles.... but then again my memory has been less than great since my little bump on the head (see link): https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/the-one-ton-swap-thread.1236366/post-15040829


Edit: it might be sankei that Moog was using, in which case I'll avoid (It looks like I have the brands mixed possibly)

 

Moog doesn’t make much of their own parts out these days, for older vehicles at least. They sub it out. When they had that big ass recall on our generation Toyota LBJ’s (2020-2021) which also impacted NAPA and one other major name brand who also rebrand, the NHTSA report revealed who it was in mainland china that was making the parts. Operation I’d never heard of readily.

 

Has anyone looked at the 2007 4runner as a parts donor candidate for knuckle, LCA/LBJ donor swap options? The wife's car is n 07 4runner V8 and I didn't even think about it till now. At least I can take measurements to see how it compares.

It uses a LBJ in compression versus tension. I wouldn't be surprised if the LCA had to be modified, but could have potential as a solution.

Edit, I see the 07 4runner has steering in front of the axle (versus behind as per the 1st gen tundra)

What this means is ackerman angle would be out of place as the pivot point is outboard further than the tundra knuckle. (you'd have to swap right to left to get the steering bracket in the right orientation and calipers at front).

This could still be resolved though with some other fabrication.
I found a 07 4runner LCA used on the local buy/sell for $25, I might grab it so I can compare. Need to find a used knuckle as well.

Double edit: I think an LCA from a 03+ 4runner / fjcruiser, utilizing the lower ball joint bracket, and then pulling the ball joint out of a LBJ, clearancing for the new LBJ, drilling/tapping the LBJ and knuckle for two more holes for the lower bracket may be a possible solution.

It's mostly machining, but not sure how close the other LCA will be to fitting in the stock frame brackets. It is a potential bolt on solution where you would send your old knuckle in for a core charge and use OEM parts.

 

If you build it, they will come

 

Maybe this should go to a new thread but let me throw some ideas at you all regarding building a "fix"

I have a good friend that is a full time welder and welds part time for a company near here called red dog fabrication - I don't know the owner only Corey who works for him
( https://www.instagram.com/reddogfabrication/ )

My intent is to use a bolt on ball joint (GM truck) that is a bolt on component and fabricate new LCA's, and then create a bolt on lower bracket for the knuckle that will replace the LBJ assembly. We will have to build a jig, and get sleeves made from a machinist for the bushings, as well as a aluminum bushing for the sleeves to sit on the jig when doing assembly.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=13530921&cc=1431208&pt=10070&jsn=4511

Most of this plan is in my head, and I will get it onto autoCAD for the plates to be cut for the LCA once I have donor parts all together.

Using the GM ball joint reduces costs (machining) as opposed to using a 2nd gen Tundra LBJ, and makes it a swappable part without a press. The GM LBJ should work as it was on 1500 and 2500 series RWD trucks although my preference is usually keep it Toyota parts.

If I used Toyota 2nd gen LBJ I would have to get thick metal bent and then machined for the LBJ to be pressed in ($$$) whereas with the GM part I can just get 4 holes plasma cut when the parts are cut.

This will be quite a bit of time to collect parts (I need old LCA's to template the jig) and there are some other pro's, such as I can rotate the LBJ slightly for lifted front end, and the coil/shock bracket holes can be raised slightly for 1/2"-1.5" of lift.

I'm too new to this forum to be setting up a pre-order or any of that, but after we make a couple sets and run them for a while (he has a first gen extended cab as well) I'm going to pass along the jig/design to red dog fabrication or someone like Trail Gear so they can make these at more competitive prices and volume for the 1st gen community.

• The used LCA donors will be a couple/few weeks,
• then I need the alternate LBJ's,
• then get a machinist to build a bunch of sleeves,
• then patterning the LCA's and LBJ bracket,
• then waterjet LCA metal and finish jig for welding.
• I'll probably pay for materials and Corey can put in his time and welding for a couple sets.

On my Landcruiser build thread there is some pics of other brackets and stuff on page 1 or 2 for the one ton swap I did my FJ80 if you are curious to similar work we've done together.

This project is long ways off, and may pivot slightly in design for clearances etc, but the long term plan is to make this an affordable and accessible fix for the 1st gen's Achilles heel.

Comments on what people would pay for new beefier LCA's with a LBJ fix that puts it in compression rather than a spherical joint in tension?

Interest in adjustable height via separate bracket on LCA?

 

This would be amazing. While I don't think I can be a tester for this, I would happily buy a set and let y'all run it for 10k miles before I install.

 

I dig your willingness to contribute to testing.

If there were a bunch of preorder or or order interest, it would be good to get a sense of numbers, just for ordering volumes of the metal sleeves (LCA bushings) from machinist and LBJ's through rockauto etc.

 

Solo motorsports sells theirs for $1,200 and they don't fix the ball joint issue. If you can fix that, I'd gladly pay in the same range.

 

One more question (sorry for bumping the thread again):

I see one fabricator of aftermarket LCA/knuckle shifts the ball joint slightly forward (1”)

this gives more clearance for tires against the body mount/fenderwell, so you can run a slightly bigger tire.

it also increases caster, which apparently makes it want to track straighter on the highway and steers a hair less easily at slow speeds.

im thinking this would be preffered though, maybe only 1/2 to 3/4”

thoughts?

second, would people want a LCA that has 1” lift by the mounting hole location? It makes up for sagging coils.

what amount of lift would you want integrated into an LCA?

 

How much can the cv's handle?

 

In response to CV angle: These things often have 2” of lift or more without lowering the diff, and with an extra 1” of forward offset that is even more. A friend must have had closer to 3” on his sequoia, I think there are more issues with ball joint angle top and bottom.

edit: didn’t even think about people that have/want lowered 1st Gen trucks for lowered height

 

I'd say no lift at the mounting hole. For those stock height or lowered that don't want lift.

I would do .5" forward. Many aftermarket uppers go backwards for more caster, so that can get the caster really high, depending on the parts combination.

 

I'd keep it to one option just to cut down costs. So .5 caster like @assassin10000 said and no lift.

 

Another option IF the strut body will allow it is to have 2 holes. A stock height and a lifted height.

The only problem would be is that I don't think the strut body will clear it if directly vertical like the stock mounts. You could make the mounts wider and include spacers/washers. Unfortunately that can also make installation a real pita when juggling lining up the hole, the bolt and 2 more washers.

 

I think what we'll do is just make some smaller pilot holes, and then end user will pick what they want and drill it out, that way there isn't a bunch of holes making it weaker.

Also contemplating a plate U shaped bracket that drops into slots in the LCA, and then has a couple bolts to hold it, so it is interchangeable or can build LCA's and send one or two options with.

Just a scratched up image on CAD (not to scale), but this would be a rough idea of side view of said bracket that would drop in and catch.



Edit: costs for a small backyard fabricator are always more than a larger entity, who can quickly recoup engineering/design costs quickly by putting the next cool thing in their weekly email advertising and turn some quick sales. Costs can kill something like this easily, so its a balance of budget vs. extra functions.