LBJ conspiracy...

Tundra Fam,

We have all been baptized in the religion of replacing our LBJ's every 100k, along with the timing belt refresh. I've seen 100's of FB and Reddit posts demanding that you go back with OEM 'Yota parts. My question is this.... if the OEM LBJ's are so suspect and potentially day ruining, why would everyone be belligerent that you go back in with OEM? I'm OK if people have had issues with Moog or some other aftermarket, but shouldn't there be a definitive replacement at this point? There are an absolute container ship worth of First Gen Tundras, LX430's, Sequoias, etc. out on the roads. Has NOBODY reproduced the most talked about maintenance item for our vehicle? What about Beck/Arnley or MAS or TRQ? Honest question... if I go back with original Toyota parts... am I not just setting myself up for more possible disappointment? Surely my GM and Ford trucks with 200K and 300K miles aren't built with better parts than Toyota? Say it ain't so!

thanks in advance

Bellyroll

 

I guess the thread dedicated to this topic is a bit much to read...But it'd answer your question.

It's design flaw. One that was fixed in the next generation of Tundra/Tacoma/4Runners. Adding cheap, weak aftermarket parts to an area with a design flaw just compounds the issue. The best option is to go OEM, and replace at the recommended intervals.

Only way to truly avoid this issue is to buy the next generation Tundra.

 

Welcome....

IMHO, our LBJ's are suspect only when one does not check them every 15K miles like Toyota suggests. Many go > 100K miles, they brake, then bitch.

Quick Forum search for past LBJ named threads in last 6 months full of opinions/comments that might help ya.

 

We got sick of people questioning it.

So we created a thread to document failures. https://www.tundras.com/threads/first-gen-lower-ball-joint-lbj-failures.141860/

The problem is clearly demonstrated by @MT-Tundra above.

Plenty of YouTube videos online showing why aftermarket is inferior, they cut them open and the aftermarket typically use nylon or plastic inserts, retainers and bushings. OEM doesn’t. At least not in areas where it would matter.

Do what you want. Believe what you want. It’s a wear item. Replace it. Use OEM parts.

 

Thanks MT and Bubba and Shifty,

I should have paid my dues and dove down the rabbit hole of LBJ threads, but I expected that everyone would cut me off and just tell me OEM or else. In my naiveté, I was hoping for that unicorn nugget that would suggest XYZ. I figured in 20 years technology might have won out.

I appreciate the quick response.

b

 

Won out in what way, exactly? Just curious.

Sadly, as someone who's spent more than a couple 20-year periods wrenching on vehicles, the only thing 20 years has bought us is an aftermarket industry so hellbent on capitalizing on profit that the parts are absurdly inferior, garbage.

If I had a dollar for every person who's come on here with a store brand/aftermarket fuel pump, brand new, that was DOA or died within weeks of install, and similarly for starters and alternators, I could buy a week's supply of beer. I've been doing this for a long time. I used to be a die-hard Moog guy, you can find 20+ year-old threads of mine on the big 67-72 chevy trucks forum and LS1tech where I'm talking Moog up a storm. They used to make great parts! You know, back when they made parts in-house, which they no longer do. If you look at the NHTSA recall documents, you'll clearly see multiple brands - NAPA, Moog, and two other major name store brands were buying LBJs from the same mainland China warehouse. And some of those - NAPA, had their recall extended to parts manufactured between 2019 thru June of 2024!! (see image below, reference doc HERE)

The quality of aftermarket parts has gone 1,000% down the shitter. You cannot gamble with aftermarket these days, your one safe bet is going with OEM parts, FUNDAMENTALLY. When you buy authentic OEM Toyota parts, you have the highest probability of getting a part that functions and lasts just as well and just as long as the part you received from the factory.

Furthermore, to add on to this gripe session, if I had a dollar for every counterfeit part someone received ordering from the likes of scAmazon, fleaBay, or similar online storefront which doesn't give a shit about validating inventory coming to their warehouses or being sold online for authenticity, I'd have a free lunch to go with it. The number of dudes on this forum who've gotten bogus spark plugs that've fallen apart inside their cylinders is too damn high!

Anyone is welcome to do whatever they want. If you dig into the NHTSA reports on aftermarket part recalls, you sit on a forum like this long enough (for me, that's been a couple of decades now) helping people with automotive problems, you see the trends. You don't have to take my word for it. But I'm telling you, it is plain as day to me:

• Aftermarket part quality is complete shit
• Anything that comes with a "lifetime warranty" these days is a red flag for, "If not DOA, this part WILL die on you within 2-4 years"
• There are a small handful of online vendors who consistently carry authentic product
• Too many people grossly underestimate just how bad part quality has gotten
• Too many old-timers in my age bracket and older hold onto memories of brand quality, despite the brands selling off long ago, and no longer deserving their reputation/brand loyalty (Moog is way high up there)

I can sit here and spit facts at you all day. I can link you up with videos which cut LBJ and TRE up and show you what various brands have. I can link you up with videos comparing tolerances on brand new parts from NAPA and other brands, showing serious declines in part quality. They've been posted on here before. And we have a full thread on "what aftermarket parts failed you?" with some of those videos included over here. Nobody here likes to blindly spout off unverified info. We actually take time to track and research this stuff.

​

 

The flaw isn't in the material or build quality of Toyota's lower ball joints. Its inherent to the design itself, and the orientation of the ball joints. The joint is always trying to pull itself out of the knuckle.

If you look at 2nd Gen+ Tundras, 4th Gen+ 4runners, 2nd Gen+ Tacomas, 2nd Gen+ Sequoias, they all completely flipped the orientation of the lower ball joints. On these newer models the lower ball joint rests on the steering knuckle, versus the steering knuckle resting on the lower ball joint (this makes all the difference in failure potential).

So knowing the design is flawed, the best way forward (if keeping the vehicle) is to replace the lower ball joints proactively with the best available option on the market, and that is OEM Toyota.

 

Compounding on an already kickass statement, I'd only add: A huge part of the problem here is "human error/ignorance on the part of the owner".

That is, it's a well-known fact, any time you have a mechanical joint on any vehicle - regardless whether that's a ball joint, universal joint, CV joint - it is a wear item. Wear items require replacement. If you own a car and do not understand this simple concept, that's a pretty significant problem.

We see a lot of 1st gen owners specifically, both here, on other forums, on the Facebook groups, who post pics of their LBJs failing with commentary lamenting about how it's only been 200k or 300k miles since the last ones. "I had no idea", or, "I wish Toyota would fix this shitty, broken design", as if the design is somehow as bad as their ignorance. No, it's not. It's a very well-known wear item. Toyota tells us this much in the LBJ recall documentation for 50j and 70b recalls.

Granted, I'm not naive. I also realize many times, the joints don't give much (if any) warning or signs of play before failure, and I think your average driver who doesn't turn a wrench expects some warning prior to a part failure. This isn't unreasonable.

But I've also seen several people (I'm one of them) who checked for play before replacing their LBJ, found none, replaced their joints, and the part clearly shows play in the ball spindle/socket while it's not under tension. This is the main reason I urge folks: REPLACE PROACTIVELY. Unless you're testing the LBJ for play while under tension (i.e. on the ground) and not under tension (i.e. jack under LCA and wheel slightly off floor), you're not going to get the best possible indication. Furthermore, any indication you get may not be truly indicative of health. We've had ample reports of failure shortly after a shop gave a 1st gen owner the good-to-go "no play found" signal.

FWIW, my joints were OEM, replaced under recall. I have 80k original miles on my truck. When I lifted the truck around 75k miles, The recall LBJ had roughly 60k miles on them. They had some play in the joint, but none I was overly concerned with. With that as a gauge, I think 100k-125k is a fair number for the later-year 1st gen trucks.

 

Thank you Shifty & Red&03 for the sage advice. Certainly didn't mean to pull the scab off of an old wound. I was simply holding out hope that the manufacturing world would have done the "right thing" by their customers and provided an updated design with significantly improved quality after the past 2 decades. Buying the Toyota part is not a problem, I was questioning whether or not there was an alternative available. I'm coming up on 200k and it is time for the proverbial refresh. I'd like to take care of as many items as I can in one setting as this is a daily driver and hopefully won't have it out of commission for a month.

As a follow up question... are you in favor of ALL TOYOTA PARTS DEPARTMENT all the time, or is there an outside supplier that you would use in a pinch? (Given that NAPA is no longer the bastion of DIY quality it once was) The big 3 - Advance, Autozone, and O'rielly's all seem to get their inventory from the same Chinese jobber. How does one know if they are getting quality parts as opposed to that of questionable origin?

thanks again for guidance.

b

 

learn what OEM really means and who they are for the tundy

 

Technically the best option may be the Total Chaos uniball ungrade but most of us aren't willing to pay that much. The best affordable option is definitely Toyota.

https://www.chaosfab.com/product/20...nmtSwQZ8zHOtPOgNn8Cot35n0-WxbHboaAtoxEALw_wcB

 

So over on the 1st Gen Tacoma forum (on TacomaWorld) one of those Total Chaos Uniballs failed. But it was the lower ball joint bolts shearing, not the uniball itself failing. And the bolts shearing is a very common mode of failure that no one has managed to "engineer around" yet.

 

it's been covered.

the bolts should be replaced along with the LBJ's

 

No scabs pulled, I lack the ability to consistently apply 'nice' tones to my words online. Fault of mine. No hostility here, I'm just not one to mince words or fluff things to sound drippingly sweet. I think that would be a disservice to the reader(s).

Without getting overly political, since politics is banned here .... The industry, right or wrong, is going to do whatever makes the most profit with the least risk and lowest effort. Consumers send their vote of acceptance with their hard-earned dollars. If consumers are buying the product and are OK with the risk, and the company doesn't get sued over it, and they make noteworthy profits, they'll set that as a baseline for future runs, and slowly massage things to eek out max profit with less work. It's the heart of capitalism, as long as they get by without flagging some consumer protection division or killing too many people, in their mind they're golden. This is the mentality of business. It's what we've voted to receive with our hard-earned dollars. Integrity is a thing of the past, it's been shoved to the side by profitability, and we've allowed that to happen by not raising our expectations, and avoiding the more-cheaply made stuff. Sadly, doing so has effectively made it impossible for the higher-quality stuff to survive, and widened the price gap.

tl;dr - Virtually nobody in the industry does the "right thing" anymore unless it's nearly as profitable.

"Another alternative available". Before answering this, it's important to understand a couple general truths:

• The service life numbers Toyota gives you, like 90k/9yr on a timing belt, 50k on a PCV valve, those numbers only apply if you're using THEIR PARTS, not an alternative; Toyota has zero control over the aftermarket, their construction, longevity, and quality control. They can only assure you you should get X miles out of their OEM part. You will absoltuely get 100k-125k miles out of a factory LBJ, it's been proven repeatedly. Due to Toyota's standards and controls, as long as you replace with Toyota's OEM and the part is authentic, you should theoretically get the same. If you opt for an aftermarket part, you need to adjust those numbers accordingly. We've seen aftermarket LBJ fail in less than 2k miles.
• Teeing off that, the cheaper part quite often does not save you money. Authentic OEM LBJ costs you $90-130/ea and will last 100k-125k miles. Aftermarket you can get as cheap as $30-45/ea and will probably get you 10k-30k miles. If the OEM costs 3x as much, but lasts 4x-10x longer, not including labor $$ or the risk of 100s or 1000s in damages in the event of a part failure/lifespan end, you're going to be buying at least 3 aftermarket parts in the same timespan as that 1 OEM part, thus not only spending more money, but also more time/labor. If you're not doing your own labor, with shop times at $125/hr on average these days, you're really getting fucked (to be blunt). For some jobs that are a real PITFA, like the 4.7L starter, the fuel pump, and the UBJ, you DO NOT want to be doing those repeatedly.
• Sometimes the part is inconsequential, it won't cause collateral damages; other times, like with LBJ, timing belt, water pump, and certain electrical components, it'll cause major damage. That in mind, you need to pick your alteratives (A) wisely, evaluating collateral damage and (B) hopefully based on other people's experience. Those we've tested for pass/fail, again are in THIS THREAD.

Most of our collective knowledge on what parts are "never use anything but OEM" are in our collective community knowledge thread, HERE, every new member/owner should really read the first 2 replies in that post, and reference it when you want to buy upgrade, or fix a problem.

For aftermarket, you won't find better pricing than Summit Racing or Rock Auto. Summit has the best customer service. Rock Auto often has the best pricing (always use the 5% off coupon).

For OEM, the first few bullet points in THIS THREAD will help you find your parts (for LBJ specifically, see the LBJ parts# sticky thread). We usually start at the Toyota Parts system (main website is HERE) to locate the part, and see what discounts we can get from local dealers by ordering it online - if you order it at their parts counter, you'll pay full MSRP; if you order thru the Toyota portal online, sometimes you can get discounts as high as 60-75% off in my experience. My local dealers (I have 5) are wildly variable for online order, some are full MSRP, some are heavily discounted. If we can't get it cheaply locally we'll typically use this dealer (free ship over a certain dollar amt, no tax if you're outside of Alabama) or this dealer. Never use Toyota Parts Deal, it's not a dealership, and people have had a myriad of problems with them. Toyota Parts Overstock is a solid option with similar name, it's just a storefront for Lakeland Toyota down in FL, so a real dealership, don't confuse the two, one is legit, one is to avoid.

EDIT: Wanted to add, Amayama (Japan) and Partsouq (UAE) are also two legitimate OEM parts sources, and quite often cheaper on the part. The balance comes with shipping, and if shipping is low, you can sometimes net substantial savings. But you better be 100% certain you're ordering the correct part, because returns would prove costly.

 

Yea I know that, but even replacing the bolts doesn't always go far enough. And sometimes the OEM ball joint will come with new stainless steel or zinc bolts included that are significantly more likely to shear than other bolts Toyota has available for these ball joints. If you wheel these trucks, then it's worth installing new bolts with the most shear strength.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...s-wanted-about-lower-ball-joint-bolts.772506/

 

it's been covered here. Replace the bolts with the LBJ. It's pretty simple.

I'm not gonna find the thread for you cause I don't care enough.

Different bolts (black w/ washer or silver w/ red loctite) for different LBJ.

Get them directly from Toyota. It's like $20 for the 8

TL;DR replace the bolts with the LBJ. It ain't hard you fuckwits

 

Don't worry man; this isn't FB. We actually have clear, concise conversations, present evidence, and propose solutions. Also we talk a lot of shit in a cheeky and fun way. FB shit talking is cruel and tragic.

 

I think "moronic" may fit in there also. There's too much dick-slinging going on in most of those conversations, and nobody reads anything that's more than 2-3 sentences long. It makes for thin, baseless conversations, and the discussion format isn't linear, making it easy to get lost/buried.

 

Sankei -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325146856943

 

It's getting bad/has been bad and I'm getting tired of it. There's people in there genuinely asking for help and all they get is one or two word answers. Someone asked last night if they could replace the valve guide seals with the heads on the block due to a puff of smoke on start up. I said to check the PS valve and for leaky injectors. No other comments so far.

 

not me thinking this was about Lyndon Johnson / JFK good luck with the ball joints

 

it's cause it's the worst place for actual information.

I may just leave the all caps group as well. It's annoying seeing the same stupid shit

 

2 strikes here. One for those Sankei’s, and one for the fleabay source.

 

Glad you posted that about Toyota parts deal. I made the mistake of making a purchase through them after spending a couple of hours looking for multiple parts and I missed that it wasn't a Toyota related dealership like all of the others I had searched I should've walked away that night and then come back in the morning to verify before I placed the order Fortunately all I ordered was several of the molded vacuum hoses.

What is the issue with them? Are they potentially Chinese knock offs? Mine did come with Toyota labeling I'm not overly concerned since it's just vacuum hoses, but I'll avoid next time

 

Black bolts with washers (90119-10933) are the strongest option, & least likely to shear off. Torque to 37 foot/lbs. Here's the thread to show you why :

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...s-wanted-about-lower-ball-joint-bolts.772506/

 

the black bolts don't fit on the 05-06 LBJ's

 

Well that sucks

 

It would seem, that somewhere along the way in the history of the 1st Gen Tundra somebody should have created a lower control arm replacement that would utilize better bushings and incorporate the updated design. If only we had that 1st Gen Superman being