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IT'S OFFICIAL! FULLY ELECTRIC TOYOTA PICKUP TRUCK COMING! - 2023 TOYOTA TUNDRA EV?

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2022+)' started by P-Factor, Apr 19, 2021.

  1. Apr 29, 2021 at 7:01 PM
    #151
    SSPey

    SSPey .

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    correct, please see reference to “indirect use” in my post ... for the public welfare
     
  2. Apr 29, 2021 at 9:32 PM
    #152
    Booney

    Booney New Member

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    There are BILLIONS that are squandered every year on green projects. I think anyone that wants to get subsidies just has to find a political angle to get subsidies. I agree that corn totally sucks as a fuel additive or alternative fuel. But green programs like Solyndra were and have been total failures with absolutely nobody that is held accountable. It has nothing to do with common sense or what cause is actually good. Here are just a couple of examples of colossal failures of green subsidies being misused and literally thrown away with absolutely no accountability for the loss of billions in taxpayer dollars. I am for subsidizing responsible and well thought out projects and research with accountability and oversight. If someone gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, like the Solyndra debacle they should pay. Not one person went to jail for that whole charade.

    U.S. solar power plant backed by over $700 million in government loans goes bust: filing
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...vernment-loans-goes-bust-filing-idUSKCN24V3C4

    Why the Solyndra mistake is still important to remember
    https://fortune.com/2015/08/27/remember-solyndra-mistake/

    19 Green Energy Companies Have Failed at Taxpayer Expense
    https://www.myheritage.org/news/19-green-energy-companies-have-failed-at-taxpayer-expense/

    It's my freakin money that they are literally burning by the barrel full unless they are really going to oversee and prosecute people that abuse and steal the money that is provided to them by hard working taxpayers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  3. Apr 29, 2021 at 10:09 PM
    #153
    SSPey

    SSPey .

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    Billions are squandered annually on all sorts of corporate handouts that don’t benefit working people. Some are green, some are brown, they’re all red white and blue.
     
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  4. Apr 29, 2021 at 10:12 PM
    #154
    Booney

    Booney New Member

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    Sounds like you aren't a big fan of any kind of oversight or accountability.
     
  5. Apr 29, 2021 at 10:32 PM
    #155
    SSPey

    SSPey .

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    Thanks for telling me how I am. I appreciate it. Glad to meet you. Exactly how many people were jailed when corrupt financiers crashed the global economy in the 2008 housing crisis? Disgraceful. Solyndra is a rounding error but still a favorite whipping post in some circles. If only we focused where the real problems were ...
     
  6. Apr 29, 2021 at 11:03 PM
    #156
    Booney

    Booney New Member

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    The DOJ found that Solyndra committed fraud and yet didn't prosecute ONE person from Solyndra. Why would you minimize that?

    "Also in 2011, a US Department of the Treasury official confirmed that the criminal probe of Solyndra was focused on whether the company and its officers misrepresented the firm's finances to the government in seeking the loan or engaged in accounting fraud."

    "The company filed for bankruptcy on September 1, 2011,[2][3] and investigation found Solyndra executives misled federal officials to obtain $535 million in government-backed loans"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra

    You still haven't actually rebutted my statement about your position on oversight.
    I would say that granting loans to "green" companies that blow BILLIONS every year is a real problem but it seems like you prefer to ignore those inconvenient problems and that is your absolute right to do so. I didn't limit my post to just Solyndra. I posted several situations which you ignored.
    And then on top of minimizing the disgusting acts of Solyndra you throw out a red herring in the guise of the global crash of 2008, which has nothing to do with any energy subsidies, which is the topic of the conversation you and I are talking about.
     
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  7. Apr 29, 2021 at 11:04 PM
    #157
    SSPey

    SSPey .

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    Fraud is bad. Happy?
     
  8. Apr 29, 2021 at 11:09 PM
    #158
    Booney

    Booney New Member

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    Whatever.
     
  9. Apr 30, 2021 at 12:18 AM
    #159
    ZappBrannigan

    ZappBrannigan The mind is willing but the flesh is weak

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    I’m not going to dive into this argument too hard because quite frankly I don’t care, but for the record Hawaii taxes Gross and Net revenue. Hooray! . The Gross is paid at 4.712 percent and is a general excise tax. And our soon to be highest income tax in the nation will top out at another 16% on top of that. Way to go Hawaii.

    Also, time value of money is a factor. The net present value calculations change based on the recovery period and that period can change based on when taxes are paid. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Writing off the capital expenditure all at once has more value over time. So arguing about the semantics of a “subsidy” in that regard is a bit silly. Being able to write down large capital expenditures in income heavy years is very helpful to businesses and is a form of subsidy for sure.

    Subsidies for Amazon warehouses are local governments promising tax breaks, huge tax breaks, to entice them to setup shop. There’s no “checks being written” from the government. They are increasing Amazon’s revenue by decreasing the expenses.

    there’s lots of ways to subsidize from a governmental perspective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  10. Apr 30, 2021 at 5:47 AM
    #160
    Kung

    Kung Dead sexy

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    That's an easy and yet a difficult question to answer. I'll attempt to, however.

    1. Believe it or not, Enron. If I remember correctly, the auditor was prosecuted successfully...and that was later reversed by the Supreme Court. That led to a sort of reluctance to try to prosecute others. It didn't help that right after the housing crisis, the gov't lost a case involving Bear Stearns.
    2. @ that time the DoJ was reluctant to go after banks and financiers - the very people who were very likely 100% guilty but ALSO the very people at the helm of the companies that were busily tanking.
    3. People. A whole crapload of people got involved in subprime loans/mortgages...and no matter how wrong someone is, it's kind of difficult to prosecute someone who makes a living on people who, for all intents and purposes, make bad decisions related to their mortgages.
    4. There seems to be this overwhelming idea that no matter HOW wrong a CEO/financier is.....ultimately, financing/investments involves risk, and if money is lost, 'oh well, that's the risk.'
    5. Same thing happened in the 1980's and very little happened then - why change now? LOL

    Obviously some of my answers are humorous....but I'm also serious. It was difficult 20 or 30 years ago to successfully prosecute big banks and financiers/investment bankers....and as time goes on, it doesn't seem to be getting any easier. The article below gives a decent explanation about the 2008 housing crisis, but honestly, it doesn't cover it all, nor does it go back far enough, IMHO.

    Why Only One Top Banker Went to Jail for the Financial Crisis - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
     
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  11. Apr 30, 2021 at 6:55 AM
    #161
    jpod

    jpod its Finally here

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    "Subsidies for Amazon warehouses" aren't subsidies, they are corrupt bribes. The international community has gone a long way setting up treaties to ban bribery by western corporations to third-world infrastructure projects and the like (not that it's particularly affective: see SNC Lavilin for details). Similar needs to happen in domestic laws (down there in the US as well as up here and elsewhere) to stop that crap internally. I get why it happens if you are the local politicians as if you don't, the other guy will - hence the need for national-level laws and even international treaties to deal with it.

    It's not so much a tax revenue problem as it is an unfair competitive advantage that huge billion dollar multinationals get that benefit but your mom and pop shop doesn't. I don't care if it's Amazon, Ford, or the local widget plant. Rules should be universally applied so that you aren't skewing the playing field for other firms.

    So I guess it's a difference of opinion on what constitutes a "subsidy". Well, if it's a tax deduction available broadly across all firms for expenses, it isn't a subsidy. If you receive a benefit in the form of a direct cash grant or payment it is (particularly when it is not based on costs/expenses.) If it's a benefit to a specific company not available to other companies in the same industry, it's a bribe.

    EDIT: I should note that the international treaties are to ban corps paying politicians, and this is politicians paying corps. Same deal though. Corruption which should be eliminated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  12. Apr 30, 2021 at 7:06 AM
    #162
    jpod

    jpod its Finally here

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    I'd say the problem is that attempting to prosecute the bankers means showing how they didn't follow the rules. The rules are set by the regulators and legislators. If you go after the bankers then people would find out what a sewer of corruption the other two players are. The bankers did a combination of what they were allowed to do and what they were forced to do. There will be no change until people start pointing the finger higher up. I bow to no one in my contempt for big banks (I used to work in the industry) but problems are deep and the issue won't be resolved by braying for blood sacrifices of a handful of patsies - even rich, contemptible ones.
     
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  13. May 1, 2021 at 10:46 AM
    #163
    ChattanoogaPhil

    ChattanoogaPhil New Member

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    Putting all the save the planet nonsense aside, low maintenance and charging at home are attractive features of an EV. If Toyota made a Tundra about the size of the Gen1 with a range of 100-150 miles (99.99% of my needs) I'd buy one.
     
  14. Jun 7, 2021 at 8:00 AM
    #164
    Tundra4Runner

    Tundra4Runner New Member

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    That's awesome because electricity is free and net zero carbon
     
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  15. Jun 7, 2021 at 9:45 AM
    #165
    Roborob70

    Roborob70 New Member

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    Yeah, well what do you expect? They fucked up mazda too! My little rx7 was great as was my protege. The tribute they can stick up their ass.
     
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  16. Jun 7, 2021 at 1:09 PM
    #166
    FFFvamos

    FFFvamos New Member

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    I’d take an electric Pro with a rear locker and the ability to fit 35-37 inch tires without relocating anything.
     
  17. Jun 7, 2021 at 2:40 PM
    #167
    Tundra TTH

    Tundra TTH New Member

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    Do they sale e85 anymore and/or does anyone buy it. People are going to buy a product or change their habits if they get something beneficial, to them, from it. As more electricity is consumed prices will rise and the cost savings from electricity will decrease. Governments will find ways to tax the electricity that charges the car as well. Your home/business electric bill will go up with demand. Hybrids are the best option at this point in time for the masses.
     
    basian99 likes this.
  18. Jun 21, 2021 at 12:52 PM
    #168
    9DivDoc

    9DivDoc New Member

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  19. Jun 21, 2021 at 12:55 PM
    #169
    DerfM

    DerfM Knows nothing about trucks

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    It would be cool for day to day driving, my problem is that I want to go camping in the middle of nowhere. Same reaction I had to the Ford Lightning, looked awesome, then I realized that I want to drive it to places that not only don't have power, a gas station may be difficult to find in time.
     
  20. Jun 21, 2021 at 2:03 PM
    #170
    Tundra4Runner

    Tundra4Runner New Member

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    Let me know when electricity is free and net carbon zero then we'll have a look see.
    Tesla coils are a real thing but not yet available for the public.
     
  21. Jun 21, 2021 at 2:08 PM
    #171
    Black@Blue19

    Black@Blue19 Old Salt

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    To much to list:)
    And I am getting the best miles per gallon since I bought the truck!! I think it is just getting broke in!!!!E15395FD-17FC-4685-8BB0-D48ABFC3678F.jpg

    did between 17.7 and this on a trip to Colorado and back.
     
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  22. Jun 21, 2021 at 2:29 PM
    #172
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    Gasoline isn't free. Why would electricity have to be?
     
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  23. Jun 21, 2021 at 2:43 PM
    #173
    DerfM

    DerfM Knows nothing about trucks

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    Yeah, it's an odd statement, but I get the sentiment. My main concern with putting batteries in vehicles whether that be full electric or some hybrid electric, what is the lifespan of that battery. A vehicle is a 20+ year purchase whether that is by you or on the resale market. I'm not convinced a battery will last the lifetime of the vehicle so what does that mean for consumers? In 10 years, do I need a $20k battery? Do I sell it to some schlub and laugh my way to the bank? Then there is the reality of open pit lithium mining and conflict mineral mining. Gas, battery, neither are "great", I'm not completely sold just yet. If we can get the battery tech that everyone dreams of, then maybe that changes.
     
  24. Jun 21, 2021 at 2:48 PM
    #174
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    Don't get me wrong, I not in favor of this sudden push for EVs either but some of the things the naysayers come up with are pushing the bounds of reason.

    Also, I said it somewhere else and everyone ignored me: I find it ridiculous that if we're going to go to hydrogen it HAS to be blue or green hydrogen. Meanwhile, no one is bothering to mention that only a small fraction of our electricity is either blue (e.g. coal plants where they've installed CCS) or green.
     
  25. Jun 21, 2021 at 4:33 PM
    #175
    Torque

    Torque New Member

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    My Tundra has about 30K miles on it and it got 18.5 MPG (hand calculated, the display said 19.5) on a trip from Fort Collins to the Montrose last week. Wondering if it was the cheap Valero gas (87 octane) or the very hot weather. :bananadance:
     
  26. Jun 21, 2021 at 4:39 PM
    #176
    Hbjeff

    Hbjeff New Member

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    I wouldn’t be surprised. There isn’t enough electric grid for this. Think about how long it takes to build a powerplant these days….CA for example is shutting powerplants down, not building them. CA doesn’t have the power grid for current needs, imagine if half the population bought EV’s. Electric vehicles are not the future unless some new hyper efficient/inexpensive solar technology is right around the corner. Elon musk can enjoy his psychedelics.
     
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  27. Jun 21, 2021 at 5:19 PM
    #177
    ZappBrannigan

    ZappBrannigan The mind is willing but the flesh is weak

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    Lies!!! Stop making me feel bad about my truck. I get 12ish.
     
  28. Jun 22, 2021 at 7:34 AM
    #178
    Torque

    Torque New Member

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    The last few trips, it got 17-17.5 so the 18.5 surprised me. Could be the nearly worn out stock tires have less rubber to spin. haha
    FWIW, I pulled a 7.5x20' enclosed trailer (a.k.a, the rolling apartment building) on one trip and got about 10 MPG empty and about 8.5 MPG loaded with antique furniture.

    20210622_083528.jpg

    That was climbing Eisenhower tunnel ("Ike Gauntlet") and Vail Pass. The drivetrain and engine performed really well...the rear suspension not so much. It's pretty pathetic how it's sprung, I hope the new model sorts that out.
     
  29. Aug 18, 2021 at 12:58 PM
    #179
    Steplift20

    Steplift20 New Member

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    Great, nobody tells you how long it takes to charge those EVs and the distance and when the time comes to replace those batterys what does that cost? They don't tell you
     
  30. Aug 18, 2021 at 3:00 PM
    #180
    Degausser

    Degausser New Member

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    See sig for mods
    I'm pretty sure all of that information is very easily accessible.
     

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