No-start issue but starter cranks and battery is new

OK 2005 DBL cab

-43 C here right now. Truck started with the command start this morning. Idled for 5 minutes then shut itself down.

I went out and tried to start it with the key and nothing. No crank, no starter relay click, just dash lights. Onboard NOCO battery charger has 2 month old battery charged. Heated battery blanket as well.

OF course it doesn't break down in my heated garage, no, in front of the house in hella cold polar vortex.

The starter relay isnt getting 12v switched power but does have constant power. So its not receiving signal from the ignition switch. Does this mean its likely the ignition switch? Or is there something else that could be preventing this or how do I check the ignition switch? Everything else has power in the cab as well as wipers.

I jumped the starter relay with a piece of wire (ignition key on) and the starter cranks over like a bugger but the engine wont start. Leading me to thing the fuel pump isnt getting power either.

Any advice on what to check next is appreciated.

 

Anybody know how I could test the Neutral Safety Switch or confirm if the ignition switch is working?

 

Is “Command start” a remote starting system of some kind?

 

yes sry its a remote start system that was installed already when i bought the truck (12 yrs ago) sure nice to have when its -40 but wondering if its somehow blocking the signal to my starter relay. theres so many wires going into the little black box for it I dont even know where to start.

 

Yeah, it’s likely the remote starting system system causing the issue.

 

When i jump the starter relay and the starter cranks, should the truck fire up and run? it just cranks and cranks.. like its missing fuel or spark as well

thats with the key in the ON position.

 

Depends on how it’s wired in. Most use an ignition kill. Some may use a fuel pump kill. Tundras are a little different in their fuel pump wiring. They do not activate with key on, but only when cranking or when running. They also look for several signals (crank sensor, temp sensors etc.) before activating. Check out the mega thread for more detailed info

https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/

 

These trucks HATE aftermarket electronics

 

The attached 2 page pdf of the Starting circuit for an 05 DC shows voltage measurements that might help.

Have you checked the 7.5 A STA fuse in ENG bay ?

 

Thanks Bubba. That fuse is unfortunately fine.

Your ignition diagram is appreciated. It’s so dang cold here right now I’m scared to move the wires cuz they’ll just crack like glass. Wish I could start this thing ONE time just to get it in the garage.

There is quite a bit of aftermarket wiring going on under the column, tied into the ignition wires. I honestly don’t even know what’s stock and what isn’t but is it safe to say the “wavy” twisted wire is aftermarket? There’s a ton of it behind the kick panel and it is tied into everything.

 

What aftermarket equipment does your truck have?

 

It has a Viper 875xv remote start as well as an extreme capacity relay satellite, that must be some kind of range extender for the remote control.

the command start has always worked fine but I’m wondering if one of the connections is bad where they spliced that heavy 8? Gauge wire into the factory 18? Gauge wire. That never seems to go well. Gonna have to wait for this polar vortex to pass though.

 

While waiting for the vortex to subside, give serious thought to removing that non OEM "wavy" junk completely. I wouldn't even know where to start troubleshooting with that mess in the way.

 

That and the T-tap splices many alarm installers use are notorious for butchering wires and eventually shorting out. It’s the nature of the beast when you use t-taps/scotchlok/quicktaps, they’re garbage.

Something else to look at. Near the brake pedal, above the floor mat, there’s a toggle switch in a blue box. On many of the older DEI-owned alarms, that’s a valet/disable switch. Sometimes with a button adjacent for programming or other purposes if IIRC, though I don’t know that specific model, we installed mostly Avital and Clifford at our shop, also DEI owned. Is it possible you bumped it into another mode on that switch? Have you tried simply unplugging the “brain” box(es) to see if the truck will start with no brains?

If you go to DEI’s (Directed Electronics) website, you can find installers in your area. They’d be ideal to help with diagnosing if it’s the alarm or not. And can probably get you on a newer, better model. But you can go a long way with just having the instructions. With the model number you can pull up the install PDF online. Average lifespan before failure:flakiness on most modern aftermarket alarms/remote start is 10-15 years in my direct experience.

 

Oh and if you reverse the install, be sure to have heat shrink, twist, tin, solder, and heat shrink each place where it was tapped so you don’t have gremlins later.

 

Thanks Shifty, I'm definitely interested to see what kind of garbage connections they used under the tape or if they did a nice proper solder job. From what I've seen so far, other than tape instead of heat shrink, the installed did a pretty tight install considering how much wire is in there. But ya if the components typically only last 10-15 years, this gear is past that window at 19.

I did definitely hit that toggle switch and also the button with no regard for what it does since the no-start issue began. The remote starter box is currently completely unplugged, just the range extender box is still plugged in. I'll unplug it tmrw.

I definitely agree, I would gladly pay a real installer to go over this system but if I can't start it, I can't get it off the street and into a shop to properly diagnose it. Supposed to be colder, -49C tmrw. woohoo. I will check that website out though.

Next plan of attack is to trace the B/W wire from the ignition and find why i'm getting no power to the starter relay.

Thanks again for the information and advice, I know nothing about command start module installs.

 

Not sure if it helps @Dracko but I'm attaching the PDF owner's manual from your unit, last edit was 2013.

Poor quality (but legible!) copies of the quick install material explaining the wire colors and purposes can be found here, on 12volt.com and I see they list green + purple wires as the ignition inputs, where purple is starter side, green is key side. Pink is primary ignition output. All of this should be the heavier-gauge wires in your hand with the XORS box, and the main harness (the 12-pin, lighter gauge) is off to the side of that.

I'd also attempt, for shits and giggles, shifting into Neutral or other gears to see if it starts. I see the system is trying into the neutral safety switch... there's a remote start harness using a 5-pin connector with a black/white wire, a violet/white wire, a blue/white wire, a brown wire, and a grey wire. The black/white wire ties to the neutral safety switch. The little rainbow ribbon cable coming out of the XORS box is also doing a lot of I/O operations for remote start, per the manual.

Beyond that info, thru the first link above, you'll find electrical wiring diagrams ("EWD" for Tundra, Sequoia) at those links.

@BubbaW is, by far, the king of digging the EWD and knows more about starting logic on these trucks than any member I've seen on any other forum. The file he linked for you above is worth poring over.

Things get difficult when you start adding in aftermarket hardware, given the reputation these trucks have with aftermarket hardware installs. If all else fails, go one-by-one, and slowly un-wire the unit, re-solder like-to-like, and move on.

 

Thanks Shifty! Really appreciate you finding that for me, that is invaluable info to have. I did try shifting it into neutral and all over the gears a bunch trying to start it a couple days ago with no luck, but thats good to know this ratsnest is indeed tied into it.

Interesting development this morning, last I checked the 7.5A fuse for the starter (STA) @BubbaW I just visually checked it hadn't blown. Today I stuck my test light in the fuse socket and turned the key to the cranking position and it lit up. So I am getting power to the starter fuse but when I do the same test for the starter relay the light shows no power reaching the relay switched power terminal.


So does this mean I have an issue in the harness below the fuse block holding the STA fuse and Starter Relay OR is the power going through the fuse, to the ECU and ending there?

 

Will look more when I get back from Dr but with that info, it's possible they are intercepting the ST relay. Don't know much about these Viper installs but most I've seen or worked with, they keep their install inside the cab and not engine bay. If you don't see any wavy or other non looking OEM wires coming thru firewall driver side, I personally believe they kept install in cab.

The one place they could easily intercept ST relay circuit if they stayed in cab is IJ1 over behind glove box where ECU is. Will look more after Dr.



BTW....875XV is indeed the Viper Mdl # you have ???....pic of unit would be great if possible with vortex weather.

While I did find a 791XV installation(attached PDF) and a number of versions below it, no luck on 835XV.



edit....Forgot to add pic of places they intercept starter from installation pdf.

 

Thanks again Bubba, Yeah it looks like everything is in the cab under the steering column. I haven’t pulled the PS kick panel, but tmrw I’ll look over behind the glove box for any aftermarket wires.

I also need to check the Neutral Safety Switch somehow. Will it only have power when in crank position? So I need somebody to turn the key while I lay under and test for power?

It is an 875XV, @Shifty got me the install manual. And I’m going to dig through a box that came with the truck and see if I have a hard copy. But tbh, I’m in over my head if it’s to do with the command start. I’m gonna need to tow this to a shop I think and have them go through the wiring.

I’m hoping I can verify the NSS and ECM are still working.

 

Do you have a heating blanket on your fuel tank?

 

That is an Owners/Programming Manual and has some very good info and will be very useful. I suggest you also download the Installation Manual pdf I attached. While it is a smaller version number than the version you have, it matches fairly close to the othe Viper Mdl #'s I downloaded as far as installation.

 

No I don’t and that sounds like an explosion waiting to happen. We use a “winter-blend” of gasoline in the cold season otherwise nobody would be able to drive anywhere. I DO have a heated blanket around the battery though.

 

thanks bubba. I will do some reading and then test those purple and pink circuits tmrw.

I just talked to an installer in town and he says there’s no way the Command Start would intercept the signal unless it has an immobilizer and he says this system shouldn’t have one.

If power is getting to the STA fuse doesn’t that mean power isn’t being intercepted? Or am I missing something…

 

Some double cab 1st gens did come with immob on the truck. So while the Viper system may not have or use it, it's possible the truck has it.

To that point, just for shits and giggles, can you scan the truck for codes, since there are immob codes that will set? Also, can you try a different key?

 

OK, i'll have to look into the Immob and where to check if it has one. I did connect my bluetooth USB code reader but it said it couldnt connect because the truck wasnt running or ECM wasnt on. Another reason i'm suspecting the ECM.

I did try a few different keys with no success. The ignition seems to be working though because i have keyed power to the starter fuse.

 

Hopefully the below will help, if not make a strong drink and enjoy the vortex

You say 12vdc is at the STA fuse with key turned to Start....

It's got a ways to go to then energize Start relay and they could have intercepted any where from to ECU STSW pin 12, out of ECU STA pin 1 with 12vdc on to Park/Neutral then to the ST Relay, energizing same. With ST relay energized the now closed contacts of ST relay pin 3 and 5 is sending 12vdc to starter.

 

Ok I have constant power to the NSS key in the Start position. (Not “crank” position but still power then also)

Would it be wise to jumper the NSS with a fuse or piece of wire to see if it’s faulty? @BubbaW

In terms of the command start intercepting the signal I don’t see any indication of aftermarket tampering on the PS near the ECM.

 

Sorry, not familiar with what a "NSS key" is so can't speak about your fuse suggestion.

The bottom picture is of the kick panel area and are the 4 connectors boxed in red below.

Perhaps you looked at ECU area but as I mentioned earlier, IJ1 is behind glove box by ECU not at kick panel..

 

Ok thanks I forgot about that and got lazy haha, I’ll take a look behind the glove box area.

Sry I shortened Neutral Safety Switch to NSS. It does have constant power when Key turned to ON as well as CRANK.