No crank demon

DLAV03. Sorry for the delay in responding. I am indeed in Mexico and it beats the heck out of the frozen Northeast. It was an epic drive to get here but not because of the tundra.. It ran fine the whole way across. Just had to deal with 1500 miles of ice on the roads. Crazy driving. I am used to driving in it but suffice it to say many in Texas and Arkansas may not be.Lots of wrecks and spin outs.. The best one was a Lexus that passed me by doing 60 on black ice.. Met up with him 4 miles later.. His Lexus (and he) were 7 feet up in a tree.. No joke..

Anyway.. I never did find out the real cause of the no crank. Even after that pricey transmission position sensor (neutral safety switch) change. . BUT!...Once I saw the wiring diagram and noticed one wire from the starter relay goes to the ECU AND it Tee's off to a ground, I said HMMMM....I just pulled the starter relay, shoved a number 14 wire down into the area where the ground pin of the rely is, then replaced the relay so it held the wire in place and ran the other end of that jumper wire to battery ground.. Fired right up.. SO.. It's clearly an open ground somewhere.. It was so bloody cold and crappy at my place I said good enough, and left it like that.. Started driving and have put on over 5,000 miles and all good still. Now I am in sun and warmth, I can trace that ground... It's a hassle to get at. Check that ground? Relay will not send power to the starter without it.

 

You hafta be careful slamming around the shifter. The housing has an ear on it that's not very strong and will snap off. It's happened to a few people on here. I wouldn't expect slamming it around would rule out the NPSS either.

If you really want to step through diagnostics and potentials, start with the FSM. Check the links on the 4th or 5th paragraph on this post. https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/

 

All that said....If its intermittent like you said, then it's certainly more of a hassle to trouble shoot. Crazy how many ducks must be in a row before the truck will even crank. Good luck.

 

Any idea on what would cause two Interstate batteries to need to be replaced within a year?Both were tested by a professional mechanic

 

Need more info ...

AGM or non-AGM?

Has parasitic draw been an issue?

Does the truck sit unused for long periods of time?

Has the battery gotten to the point it needs a jump frequently?

Has the alternator ever been replaced? (and if "yes", what brand?)

 

Guess that would depend on how the batteries failed? Were they just weak? Would crank for a little bit... but weak? Or completely dead? Still a taking charge but only a surface charge? Bad alternator/ diodes can cause over charge or no charge. Over charge can produce rotten egg smell around battery and bulging sides of the battery case, but not always. Have you had charging system checked? At idle under a load? (Heater fan, headlights on etc). Are the batteries dead after truck has been sitting a few days? If so, could be a phantom load.. Or did they die while driving it? If it's the case that the battery is indeed dead, and not just bad connections somewhere, then it's a no charge situation... most likely. Truck can run entirely off battery for a limited time.. But eventually truck will die. In days of old, checking for phantom loads was pretty easy.Just start pulling fuses one by one until you find the circuit thats pulling the juice, and then start poking around in that circuit for the culpret. Now days.. Sheesh.. there are so many things that can and do draw power under different circumstances. A bit more tricky.. First thing to find out is in what way did the batteries fail. That can give you a direction to start searching.

 

non AGM

The draw is .22 milliamp and spec on the truck is.32 milliamp. its been tested by a mechanic 4 separate times.

The truck is used most days.

When there is no crank (lights come on)a jump will not start it.

Two weeks ago i had another no crank in my garage so i towed it to the mechanics.
My best guess is that the battery was already weakened and when it sat out in the cold, it may have froze and caused premature failure.
While the mechanics it needed to be jumped and it would start. It was trying to fire when it was sitting in the lot.

The alternator has not been replaced as far as I know.

 

When you say a jump will not start it, does it still crank? Or is it no crank even with jump?

 

I'm going to bring the battery to the Interstate store that I purchased it from next week and see if they can dig into it a bit more.

The mechanic gave me a print out on the battery that reads
Voltage:3.05
Rated: 750CCA
Measured: 6CCA
Temp: 66F
State of Health 0%
State of Charge 0%

 

When the truck won't start (every couple of weeks) i will try to jump it and it will not crank at all
sometimes it will start later in the day without doing anything to it. lol
THIS STUPID TRUCK!!!!!

 

Sounds like you need to go right to the basics next time it's a no start. Do you have a load tester for car batteries? When its a no start hook up the load tester to battery and see what it does..If the battery shows it's fine but still no crank, you have a connection issue somewhere. If the battery is indeed down, you have a load draw somewhere while it's parked. If you have a power probe (nice cheap tool to have) when its a no crank situation, probe the starter solenoid side of the starter relay and see if it cranks that way. It may crank but not start.. But that in itself tells you something.Your starter is likely fine. If it does crank with the probe you likely have a relay issue or bad connection between ign switch and relay. That N Safety switch has a load of wires going to lots of places.. Don't discount that sw being bad.

 

Can't get much deader than that! Get a good battery in it and disconnect Neg cable every day after you park it for the night.. See how long you get out of that battery... If it stays up constantly then you for sure have a serious draw when parked.

 

Yeah, starter is not the culprit here. We see a lot of people come here for starting help and they already went thru the pain of replacing the starter, it's typically never the starter, and if it is, it's due to worn contacts typically, which can be replaced while you're in there for much less.

This points to a circuit fail, in an unexpected state. I would suspect something stupid, like the ECU isn't triggering the starter relay for some reason - again, you could potentially track that down between the FSM and EWD in that thread I linked - and thus you're not getting what you need.

It would be really interesting the next time this happens, if you were able to jump the starter at the relay socket, see if it fires. That would solidify this theory, as it did with OP I believe.

And yeah, single digits CCA is no bueno. I've never been a fan of Interstate batts.

 

I just ordered a load tester. I plan on checking the battery every morning for a couple of weeks to see if it gives me any more useful data.

Another weird thing that has happened this summer was that when i would turn the key it would half crank then pause then half crank then pause until i let go of the key.

Do you think that a weak battery could result in a no crank?

i've been pouring over the wirings diagrams last night and this morning. It's a lot of info for a non mechanic like myself. It looks like a poor connection at junction 34 could have something to do with my problems. Or potentialy one of the 10 other circuits that use J34 then ground at the same location. lol

 

He was able to jump across the starter relay and get the starter to fire. Which confirms that the is fine. so the problem should be downstream from there which is Junction 34 at the engine compartment fusebox and then to a ground on the drivers side fender.

 

Weak battery will absolutely cause no-start, usually (IME) in the form of a single *CLICK*.

But if you can start by jumping the relay after getting a *CLICK*, the battery ain’t the issue.

 

Sorry I meant would a low battery cause a no crank but also have all the dash lights and headlights turn on? But as you said a jump start should start it if it's a dead battery.... my head hurts from going in circles

 

What does "low battery" mean to you? Low voltage?

A battery is not simply voltage. I've seen vehicles start with 9v-10v of charge as long as the necessary amperage was available. A battery can have a full 14V charge but fail to start your vehicle because it has under 200 CCA (amps). This is why testing your battery with a voltmeter or relying on similar gauge is totally inadequate. You need to test your battery for volts and CCA.

Take what the mechanic gave you, for example.

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Your battery is rated for 750CCA (cold cranking amps). In most cases you need at least 200-300 CCA to start a vehicle. Even if your battery had been fully charged, there's a solid chance it wouldn't have enough CCA to blast the power required to start the vehicle.

The battery, as he tested it, was bad. I'd prefer to test it after a full trickle charge just to get realistic numbers, but ... yeah. What is showing there is no bueno.

A common symptom of a failed battery is exactly what you described: Lights on full blast, but no ability to turn the car over. i.e. the voltage is there to power everything, but not enough amps to push that blast of voltage down the line.

 

It's an alarm system issue. It cuts out the ignition and the starter when you bypass truck will run but when you put in gear it kills the ignition. Look around if it doesn't have a factory alarm it probably has an aftermarket alarm. I've run across this issue many times before. Look under edge of dash for a tiny dip switch which you flip on then off again to reset system. If you can't find that then disconnect the battery and it will usually reset the system and it should work again. Sometimes you have to pull battery turn key on then hook battery up with the key on. Give it a try. Neutral swith has nothing to due with car shutting off. If sensors were bad it wouldn't run when you by pass starter relay. Alarm will cut out the ignition switch starter circuit.

 

If it's a Double Cab, I can believe this. But sadly, nobody wants to tell you what fucking cab their truck is

It's such an important detail to leave out!

I can buy aftermarket alarm also. The intermittence of it is telling. I used to ask people to show a pic of their remote, many dealers installed (with huge upcharge) alarm systems on these trucks which were totally unnecessary, and the owner doesn't even realize it.

 

Can't diagnose a problem with half the information. I just had a guy who put a new battery in his car. Calls me up says headlights are flashing and horn is beeping but car won't start. I said does it have an alarm, "not that I know of he says". I drive over to pick up the car, surprise it has alarm system. Did the key on battery disconnect system reboot, vrooom the car with no alarm starts right up. He says hey whatcha do? I said I reset the alarm system your car doesn't have. Ha Ha Ha.........

 

So I got my new Topdon battery tester today and tested a 5 day old battery

600CCA and it tested it 578
charge 100%
internal R= 5.19

The interesting part that I don't fully understand yet is that its reading the cranking voltage as Low
cranking test
time 6000ms
voltage 9.69V

I'm wondering if this is what's causing my batteries to fail quickly. I have to find out what is causing this low voltage.

 

CCA will increase/decrease with temperature, so seeing it fall short on CCA during colder temps is normal.

Low voltage ... either alternator isn't charging properly (only use Denso brand on replacement, talk to us before buying), or you have parasitic draw.

Do you know how to test for parasitic draw?

What's the history on the alternator?

 

Yeah I've watched some videos on testing for parasitic draw... Mechanic said he tested it 4 times and it's well below Toyota spec.

I've owned the truck for 2 years and I haven't changed the alternator so i'm not sure what the history is on it.
When I use the Topdon tester to test the charging system it says that it is functioning properly.
I'm wondering if the power wire from the battery to the alternator is toast.

 

600 CCA is a little Low for your Truck Especially if you're in a colder climate. I've always used a 750CCA. In fact last one was from Walmart and it lasted me 12 years with no issues. What temperature was the battery when tested? The CCA rating is based on an ambient temp of -0. If the battery is at room temp it should have a reading above the CCA rating not below. Just because the battery is new doesn't mean it's at full charge either and a new full charged battery should actually be closer to 13.5v not 12v. Like Shifty said if you suspect the alternator get another Denso. In my years of working on Yota's the only thing that usually goes is the brushes wear down. I've rarely had one go bad either, usually it's due to someone having a bad battery and it constantly running at close to full charge.

 

This is very, very common. Corrosion traveling up inside the wires. Look no further than this thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/1st-gen-psa-clean-your-battery-terminals-you-lazy-sods.131635/

 

The alternator charging power wire runs thru the main fuse box and is protected by a 40a Fuse if I'm not mistaken, not looking at a wiring diagram at the moment, then to the + battery cable smaller wire. Main heavy cable runs to the starter motor. Corrosion will typically form around the negative terminal, which suggests that the battery is “undercharging” due to a lack of adequate driving time. Corrosion around the positive terminal is generally believed to be the result of overcharging from the alternator.

 

I spoke with the mechanic today.... He's confident that it's not the alternator. He has replaced all the power wires. We just have to wait for it to die again and get some more readings. Meanwhile I will look at wires and check for cracks, splices, damage. Damn intermittent electrical problemS!

 

So......
I replaced the battery
I had a no start about 2 weeks after the new battery (i was able to jump the starter relay and the starter would fire)
I went away for a week so before I left i fully charged the battery and it showed a 100% charge. When I returned it was down to 35% charge when i returned
I tested for parasitic draw and it was showing a 22 milliamp draw. the only ones that changed it were the radio and ECU fuse.
I replaced the ground wire from the battery to the fender well and the block to the firewall
I noticed that sometimes the lights map lights would flicker when the door is open(someone replaced with LED) i removed the LED's and replaced them with stock bulbs.
The battery(3 weeks old) is showing a cranking voltage of around 8.9V. it seams to be slowly getting worse lower and lower)

I got a loaner battery from Interstate( they are testing the previous battery to see if they will warranty it) its showing 9.5 V while cranking.

Ifeel like there is some kind of extra resistence in the starting circuit but I don't know where... any ideas?

 

i bet it's just the battery