Thoughts on towing an 8000 pound trailer?

To save from posting all of the thread here, I wrote up a blurb on WD hitches a while back. Not all my brainchild, to be clear, so don’t think I’m trying to toot my own horn. Hopefully it doesn’t get booted for referencing another tundra forum.

https://www.tundratalk.net/threads/weight-distributing-hitches-and-weights-explained-ish.324930/

A small summary point: assuming 100% of the tongue weight is transferred to the tow vehicle while using a WD hitch is incorrect. Why use one at all if the load is not redistributed? So counting all of the tongue weight against your payload is also incorrect if using a WD hitch. If setup correctly, you push 20-33% of that weight back to the trailer axles off of the tow vehicle.

As a second note to weight on the axle: you will notice that Toyota rates the rear axle on your truck to carry more weight than 100% of your payload. This sounds odd, but if you tow without a WD hitch, it transfers weight off the front axle to the rear axle, so it is possible to push more weight to the rear axle than simply placing 100% of your payload on the rear axle. This is part of why you use a WD hitch - to redistribute that weight back to the front so the steering and braking don’t suffer.

 

I can't thank you enough for posting this @blenton . You have saved my night sleep without a doubt. I need to digest the numbers in the morning but suffice it to say that this WDH redistribution of weight especially some back to the trailer brings my tundras 1300 pound rating to the size of trailer that we wanted. And actually the example given in that other post is almost spot on for me.

Then to be fair to Toyota, when they decide what rating to put on the sticker they don't know what condition you're going to load the truck in. So I presume that they have to choose the worst ie no WDH. Even then it's not just rear axle load to be considered, front axle unloading causing instability is to be considered. And like all of us would do having only one safety number to write down we'd choose the smallest one.

But why do you suppose that a 1794 TRD on Toyota website says 1665 pounds and my truck sticker is 1300?

Thanks again for an excellent write up and educating me

 

Nope. Adding stuff decreases your payload. Period.

Payload is about way more than suspension and sag. It's cornering ability, braking, engine and transmission cooling, and also covers all that stuff under worst case scenarios. The truck might haul something ok on a perfect road in perfect conditions, but throw curve balls like poor conditions or emergency braking at it and being out of your ratings gets crappy real fast.

The Tundra is great for entry of trailers, but lot large luxury ones. Personally, with a half ton I wouldn't tow much beyond a 20 footer with no slide outs. Just my personal preference.

If you are dead set on the big trailer and the Tundra you can get something like a Trailer Toad to handle the payload. It's added steps, length, and maintenance, but it's an option.

 

Marketing is legal lying. There is probably a magical unicorn 1794 truck that has that payload, but they also always say "up to" X payload. Same for fuel economy estimates. Always "up to" so it's never the average or minimum that is advertised.

 

Paul,

The sticker is more of a guide to payload versus the actual payload. To determine the actual payload, go to a CAT Scale, fill up with fuel, and weigh the truck. The difference between the GVWR and the CAT Scale weight is the payload, including all the items in the truck at that time, you included if you stay in the truck while it’s weighed. I found my truck’s payload was about 200 lbs greater than the yellow sticker. As far as the effects of a WDH hitch, they are theoretical based on how they are set up. Again a trip to a CAT Scale with the trailer connected will give you a better answer. I think you will find you are within the payload and towing specifications with your truck, trailer you are contemplating, and stuff you have on board based on the paper calculations. Probably at the high end, but within the limits.

Tom

 

What tbrady said.

I can’t find the thread but I remember reading it thoroughly. It was a many page discussion about the yellow sticker vs actual payload. Lots of math and lots of people weighing their actual trucks and trailers.

My takeaway from that thread was that the yellow sticker is a “dummy proof, save our asses” number and not actual payload. Many theorize the yellow sticker actually includes the driver weight so you can interpret “passengers and cargo” prima facie - as in the driver looking at sticker and wanting to know how much more after their butt is on the seat.

Many calculated their payload to be about 150-300 lbs more that the lovely yellow sticker, and closer to the numbers stated for payload by Toyota.

 

This is all good info guys Yea, I'm coming to a similar conclusion. It's very curious that the yellow sticker 1300 pounds is about 350 pounds less than the Toyota website. Which then 350 pounds would be about the weight transfer to trailer axle using WDH if one started with a trailer weight of the Toyota website. I think the difference will come down to either that, or.., the fact that the tire pressure sticker says 35psi normal operating and when Toyota derates the tire load rating from the max at 51psi, they come up with 1300 pounds truck rating and are compelled to display that number. And as we all know, air-ing up tires for towing a heavy load is standard fare pretty much in any situation, but a small space on a sticker is not where they get into that detail.

I've called my dealer (Peterson Boise) and explained the situation. The guy was very interested and understood the situation. He said he'd investigate and get back to me. I'll let y'all know what he says.

 

For what ever it’s worth I’ll add my educated opinion: I tow a goose neck trailer either loaded, semi loaded, not-quite-so loaded, etc. with hay bales about twice a week up hills, down hills, thru mud, snow, pastures and on various road surfaces. I also tow a trailer loaded with fencing supplies & equipment & I won’t get into the various livestock trailers on the place. The closest I can come to towing a camping trailer is when I load up the horse trailer that has living quarters. . Almost daily, I’m also dealing with the wonderful winds of Wyoming. I like a larger truck for towing the bigger loads. Using too much truck to tow any load is the better & safer option. My tundra can pull the heavier loads but I just feel more in control when towing with my 1 ton Ram.
It’s noble to decide to only go 65 mph on the interstate but that also makes you a traffic hazard for the rest of us distracted speed demons who are going to approach you from behind.
AND for heavens sake figure out how to change a trailer tire BEFORE you have a flat while on the Highway.

 

The point about driving below traffic speed on interstate is valid.

Since we have not yet purchased the travel trailer I'm now backing off my upper weight limit to 7000 pounds loaded. The selection is still reasonable.

Thanks for all the inputs!

 

My last two lightly loaded travel trailers tongue weights scaled at 12.5% & 13% of scaled trailer weight (which was well under GVWR). Assuming the very minimum of 10% is likely wishful speaking, especially for an ORV, which is known to be tongue heavy.

 

The 150 lb passenger weight is figured in to establish the marketing "tow capacity" per SAE J2807.

This 150 lbs has absolutely nothing to do with payload capacity.

Payload is simple, it's GVWR - curb weight.

 

1. The Toyota website is going to list the payload of a truck in a particular trim in its best case scenario. For example it will list the payload of a Platinum with no moon roof or whatever little options there are to option with a Platinum. How many a platinum's do you see without a moonroof? They are listing the absolute best base scenario that 99.8% of trucks made do not meet. If you think Toyota is bad at this, go look at Ford's. They list ridiculous payloads but in comparable trimmed luxury trucks they are only about 150 pounds higher, if that, compared to a Tundra.

2. The yellow sticker is much more realistic. On the prior gens, it was pretty accurate. On the new 3rd gen, 2022+, people are finding another 100-150 pounds compared to the yellow sticker. This is a first for Toyota.

3. I will bet you a $100 that not a single employee at the dealer you reached out to has a clue of what GVWR is or what the Tundra can tow. They will not get what payload is. You will get a blanket statement of "it can tow up to 10,500 pounds so you are good.

4. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but if you think the truck industry is bad, the RV industry is terrible. They will say tongue weight of 650, you take a brand new travel trailer to the scales and it comes in at 750. They say they do, but none of them figure batteries, tanks, etc..... I have 3 friends who have weighed brand new campers and they were drastically more heavy than published tongue weight.

4. That trailer is a very high quality trailer. If you actually drive with full tanks, loaded out for a weekend, etc..... 8,000 pounds would be accurate. These better built trailers usually come in every bit of 13-15% tongue weight properly setup. I will bet you a $1,000 that trailer would come in pushing 1,200 pounds just in tongue weight. Add in a WDH of 200, then your wife and dogs of 500 and you are easily pushing 1,900 pounds in that truck. That is the calculation I would use if I was buying a truck. I do not want to be at max payload, so if I was towing an 8,000 pound trailer safely, I would want a truck with about 2,300 of payload (80%).

Not saying you shouldn't do it, that is up to you. 8,000 pounds on a utility trailer, and an 8,000 pound travel trailer is a completely different animal.


The only way to figure your payload is go weigh it and subtract it from your GVWR. That is the definition of payload and only number that matters.

 

So far my worst case scenario is 1300 pounds measured and calculated per @blenton method. Still waiting for dealer call back.

 

Hi @blenton : I'm studying the calculations in the tundratalk message link. Fantastic reading ! My take away comes from the statement that tongue weight and trailer weight do not enter into the calculation. The calculation is solely based on truck and trailer length dimensions on the ground, and the WDH torsion bar length and "force". It turns out that our gen 3 tundras have a bit longer wheelbase than the example, thus the adder to front axle weight will be a bit less than the example. And of course trailer coupler to axle distance may not be the same. The example torsion bar length is right for the WDH I looked up on etrailer.com. So....the bottom line is that it's the two 1000 pound forces on the 30 inch torsion bars and the linear dimensions on the ground that set the front axle increase, rear axle decrease, and trailer axle increase. It looks like the example is within 10% of our gen 3 tundra dimensions thus I conclude that the resultant weight changes are also within 10%. Summary: yes, a 300 pound decrease in truck load is realistic for our gen 3 Tundras.

My current operating mode on choosing a travel trailer maximum weight is: a) Use raw tongue weight plus all the truck add ons...WDH itself, passengers etc, and don't exceed the Toyota website 1665 pounds; b) Use the 300 pound reduction in tongue weight from the WDH, again adding truck add ons, and don't exceed my truck's sticker 1300 pounds; c) back off on all of this by at least 10%; d) DONE ps: even with all this, the travel trailer will be WAY below the Toyota "tow capacity" of 11,000 pounds for my Tundra.

Lastly, I looked around for a calculator to perform the above measurements with user entered dimensions but couldn't find one. IF you happen to know of one could you kindly forward that? Thanks

 

The yellow sticker is only 1 of 15 or so possible numbers. If you open up your owners manual and go to the payload section, they list the payload for each truck configuration. The yellow sticker on every Tundra will match one of those numbers in the manual.

So, basically, they are just slapping a generic number on every truck. They are not calculating the actual payload number for each individual truck based on the trim and options like Ford, Chevy or Ram would. As a result, most people are finding they actually have more payload than the sticker says once they weigh the truck on a scale

 

The Tundra is not rated to tow at speeds exceeding 65 mph:

 

I think the manufacturers use that as a template maximum speed as that is when sway potential increases dramatically. It is safer to say that and if you go over, then liabilities get muddy.

If no weight distribution hitch is used staying around 60 is the safer speed.

Toyota has no understanding of what gets hooked up once the truck leaves the lot. They give guidance but they can’t verify the setup afterwards. They can put a speed limit on as well but there will be times when you go over intentionally or not.

The trailer tires might not be good for higher speeds as well. I think Goodyear Marathons had a low speed limit and have been discontinued.

 

You missed the part where it said “To Avoid Accident or Injury”… that’s an advisory statement, not a statement of capability. The tundra will do 100mph with a trailer; I mean that literally. It’s the trailer you need to worry about, NOT the truck. Most trailer tires are rated for 65mph, hence the cautionary statement. I always put trailer tires on with a higher speed rating.

 

Sure the Tundra will do it no problem, Toyota just doesn't rate it for that. You also don't have to use a W/D hitch or remain within payload capacity - you're just on your own if you choose not to follow Toyota's ratings. If you think about it, the dynamic loads on the chassis are much lower hitting a dip in the road at 35 mph when overloaded 10% than when hitting that same dip at 70mph loaded to capacity.

An exception is when towing two trailers:

One 12,000 lb trailer requires ~ 1,200 lb on the tongue.

One 7,000 lb trailer requires ~ 700 lb on the tongue. Adding a second 5,000 lb trailer behind it will put roughly 500 additional lbs on the first trailer of which ~50 will be on the tongue. So a 2 trailer combo weighing 12,000 lb could safely have a 750 lb tongue weight.

Not all jurisdictions allow 2 trailers (and fewer still allow both trailers to be ball), but it does happen...

 

The typical ST rated trailer tires used on most trailer are speed rated at 65mph. Mine are ST load range E tires and carry that rating.

Tom

 

My Goodyear Endurance trailer tires are “N” rated for up to 87 mph. Keeping them at 65 mph gives a bit of a buffer. A-lot of trailer owners that I know have switched to Michelin Agilis or Cross Climate LT tires and had a great success with them. I will probably do that when I replace my current trailer tires.

 

Outdoors RV has the dry hitch weight on that trailer at 899 lbs, if you completely believe an RV manufacturer your original calculations of dry hitch weight is off by 50 lbs or so. That leaves 300 lbs for 2 people and gear.

 

I'd put that at atleast 90%, and it applies to all marketing.

 

Here are weights I got from ORV. They claim these are average weights of actually measured production units. Dry, no water, no propane, no batteries. But everything else should be installed.

21RBS - Dry 5540 lbs - Hitch 650 lbs

21KVS - Dry 5920 lbs - Hitch 695 lbs

I believe that their fresh water tank(s) are in front of the axle(s) so that is why their hitch weights go up a lot when full of fresh water.

 

A year or so ago (before some of the recent quality issues popped up) I was shopping for a travel trailer and landed on ORV, I was also interested in their backcountry as well as the trail series (toy haulers). Looking at the numbers I quickly ruled out a 1/2 ton for a tow vehicle. Not that it was not possible to configure it but I personally like to have an enjoyable towing experience to and from my destination. Most of their models, especially fully loaded run on the heavy end that IMO are better suited to a 3/4 ton or 1 ton tow vehicle.

I used to wonder why most people recommend picking out the trailer you want before the tow vehicle and now I understand it perfectly...

 

Different trailer but similar issues. Our fresh water tank (20 gallons) is just in front of our axle so it does send some weight forward but a portion depending on how far back the tank is from the hitch. Most of the weight will be applied to the trailer axles. If your grey/black tanks are in the rear. The load will shift off the tongue as the fresh water is used. We have been camping in primitive sites but always have a water source so we just fill up the tank when we get to the campsite, We carry our drinking water in the cab of the truck. Any unused fresh water gets drained out so we aren’t carrying it. We run with 2 x 20lbs propane tanks right up front. Our tongue weight from the factory is 422lbs but our scales says it is 500 lbs. This is using the weigh safe products. A Sherline scale will work as well.

Batteries can be moved depending what they are, lithium can be stored inside but AGM or Lead Acid should stay outside. I have my lithium battery under the front bed at the trailer wall so not too far from the hitch.

 

Those are probably pretty accurate. Add in batteries and propane and you are at 750-800 pounds. That is also before the 1,000 pounds of junk your family stores and keeps in the RV.

Again, 15% is a really close and real work number for travel trailers. The 10% tongue weight number is for a flat utility trailer that you can sort of move weight around. Even with a proper WDH, you will be pushing 15% of total weight in a travel trailer.

 

A good rule to go by when towing, is to take max tow rating, in my case 9500 lbs minus 20%. That comes out to 7600 lbs, and I fill good towing a fully loaded travel trailer with that weight.

 

You're going to end up with a loaded tongue weight of around 1,000 Lbs without any water in the fresh water tank.

I'd assume a loaded tongue weight of 12.5% of the trailer's GVWR and quit messing with BS "dry weights".

ORV's are well build, but very heavy trailers. There's no ORV than my previous GMC 2500 or current Titan XD could handle while staying under GVWR. When I was looking at ORV's I was planning on purchasing a SRW 1-ton.

 

Well, I guess Ill cross the Tundra off my list then.