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Recommendations on radar detectors

Discussion in 'General Tundra Discussion' started by stujaspermma, Jun 7, 2015.

  1. Jun 7, 2015 at 9:48 AM
    #1
    stujaspermma

    stujaspermma [OP] New Member

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    looking to get a radar detector for my truck and was curious if anyone had one they can recommend that they like & works well? had one in the past and it was average at best on working.
     
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  2. Jun 7, 2015 at 9:52 AM
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    Sean266

    Sean266 #ThinBlueLine Staff Member

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    Yes - don't
    By the time you pick up on the radar, they will already have you. Also, they have the ability to turn them on / off....example: We are out in city and see a group of vehicles coming up (or behind) we turn it on and grab pick up their speeds, and then we turn it back off as we are driving until we see another vehicle and by the time yours picks it up - we already have you.
    Same applies to portable radar guns, and lasers. Dont waste your $ =)
     
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  3. Jun 7, 2015 at 10:28 AM
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    matluth

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    The US military spends billions of dollars on advanced radars that must be accurate enough to guide a missile into a flying object moving at many hundreds of miles per hour, and these multi-billion dollar radar systems have a GREATER margin of error than what is supposedly "specified" for radar guns used by police. The EM(electromagnetic) spectrum is very "clogged", with thousands of different sources emitting radar waves. Quite often this energy background interferes with police radar gun sensors, resulting in both inaccurate speeds/ranges (ie:errors) for a given target and ghost targets that are not there at all. Unlike precision military computer and GPS guided missiles using radar, police radar guns (usually hand held=error) will lock to the largest moving target it sees in a group of vehicles regardless of speed. REGARDLESS OF SPEED. Speed has no factor in this. It is the SIZE OF THE TARGET. Would be very hard for an officer to prove which vehicle was speeding. Radar/RF is my background. Some of the techniques used by law enforcement are highly questionable to someone who knows anything about RF energy radar/propagation . All measurements have uncertainties and systematic errors including the non military spec'd (ie: civilian) radar used by law enforcement. I have gone to court several times for friends and always got their tickets tossed out. When I start mentioning average,mean, variance,deviation, standard deviation, relative and absolute uncertainty, expanded uncertainly, K factors, along with a few frequency related natural physical constants and laws, the judge usually throws his/her hands up. All about reasonable doubt. I've been involved with radar/RF hi freqs for over 35 yrs. Our lab in Anchorage calibrated the RF frequency counters that the State of Alaska Weights and Measures used to calibrate tuning forks (yes, tuning forks are used to calibrate radar guns and are fairly accurate,but how precise?) who in turn use them to verify & calibrate Alaska State Troopers' radar guns. Not hard to prove the radar gun error combined with operator error. Piece of cake. (lasers also have their limitation and errors, though more accurate, it's all about precision not accuracy. There is a big difference)

    It is more difficult to get a speeding ticket dismissed when the ticketing officer actually paced the offending speeder. Most judges will take the word of the ticketing officer in that case. (Especially in a small town if you know what I mean.) Easier to disprove radar gun faults. ( I would ask to see calibration verification of the officers' patrol car speedometer in that case too.)

    My RF high frequency analysis and generation rack I use at work. Unit in the foreground is a $80K EMI (electromagnetic interference) analyzer sent in from a local aerospace comany for calibration. Give me enough power and I'll jam anything.

    CAM00022.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
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  4. Jun 7, 2015 at 12:14 PM
    #4
    Wynnded

    Wynnded Wait, what?

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    You're my new best friend, lol.
     
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  5. Jun 7, 2015 at 12:49 PM
    #5
    matluth

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    I can find a buried rf signal in a carrier wave over 140 dBm down and measure Single Sideband Phase Noise of a harmonic of the carrier wave to over 140 dBm down. I'll be getting a new Vector Network Analyzer soon to replace several items in that rack. It will make writing code for automated measurement procedures less complicated for me. The VNA is right around $170K. Going to replace equipment that cost over $800K a few years ago. I've got to keep up with state art measurements. Took corporate 2 yrs to decide what direction to go. I'll be doing all the RF calibrations for company of 22 calibration labs across US and Canuck land. There was one judge a few yrs ago that tossed a friends ticket out when she saw me sitting next to him. She didn't want to hear my spiel all over again. Most people won't pay an RF expert $500 and up to beat a $100 ticket. I was doing it as a freebie for friends occasionally. Automotive radar is a multi billion $ industry. Just don't go cheap when you buy one. Get all the bells and whistles. Many top end radar detectors are 10X's more sensitive than anything law enforcement uses. This is a fact. They will sense a police radar long before they lock on on you so you can slow down. The police never know. You can't detect what you can't detect. Ergo: no junk science.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
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  6. Jun 7, 2015 at 1:03 PM
    #6
    Wynnded

    Wynnded Wait, what?

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    It's been decades since I even thought about stuff like that. I think I may groke about 3% of what you just said, but it takes me back. I have a CDL for work, so I'm really quite chill behind the wheel. Very much in the public eye I am. Oscilloscopes man, fun stuff.
     
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  7. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM
    #7
    matluth

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    When I first got into calibration in 1978 a high end o'scope was 1GHz. We have one in the lab that will measure from100 uHz to 60GHz (120GHz with an external mixer), $ 132K.

    If you want to beat a radar ticket by yourself, do this after you request a court date and prior to court appearance:

    #1 Ask for ticketing officers' radar gun training and certification paper work and to be present.
    #2 Ask for the ticketing officers' trainers' certification paper work.
    #3 Ask for the certification of the authority that provided certification for the trainer. (certified copies)
    #4 Ask for not only the radar gun's actual certified latest calibration certificate but also the last six.(This is to see if that particular radar gun ever went out of tolerance between calibrations and had to be adjusted.)
    #5 Ask for the accreditation paperwork of the calibration lab that cal'd the radar gun to see if it is up to date.
    # 6 Ask for the latest accreditation paperwork of the entity that accredited the calibration lab that cal'd the radar gun to see if it up to date.

    By doing this you are seeking verification of "chain of traceability". What do you think the odds are of the court getting all this (and the costs involved) for a traffic ticket? ZERO x1 million (Or avoid all this and get the the best detector out there. law enforcement is catching people that went cheap. Good ones go right on by.) :headbang:
     
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  8. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:22 PM
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    Mike

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    yep bank account is running low from it..
    or have friends in good places and ticket just goes away;)
     
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  9. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:24 PM
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    matluth

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    Or don't speed.:rofl:
    (Unfortunately most cities want your money nowadays)
     
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  10. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:28 PM
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    Mike

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    yep bank account is running low from it..
    my problem i know too many judges and lawyers:stirthepot:. they all come to be for computer work:wink: and upgrades.
     
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  11. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:31 PM
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    matluth

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    I was in the Philippines for three years after I got out of USMC doing contract work at Subic Naval Base/Cubi Point NAS before it closed. Best friend was a cop. In fact most of my friends there were cops. The only way to go.:oldglory:Salamat po
     
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  12. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:32 PM
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    Wynnded

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    Ya man, that's the ticket!

    Geez, I wouldn't have imagined there were so many levels of bureaucracy...wait, did I just say that?

    The last scope that I thought was sweet was because it was....digital.
     
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  13. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:36 PM
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    matluth

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    Calibration nowadays is all about traceability chain all the way up to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). Paperwork x inifinity. I spend more time making sure paperwork is perfect than doing actual work. (when I'm not goofing off on Tundras.com shhhh!)
     
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  14. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:40 PM
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    Wynnded

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    Document, document, document....Carpal Tunnel and a lot of wasted time looking for a working pen. =)
     
  15. Jun 7, 2015 at 2:51 PM
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    matluth

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    If money is no object take out the radar jammer/detection out of this Marine EA-6B Prowler and put it in your truck. You will shut down and fry everything in it's path:

    150px-MCS149.jpg
    VMAQ-2_jet_over_Iraq_in_2004.jpgMarine Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 2, EA-6B Prowler with 4 crewmen (note authorized playboy bunny insignia on tail, newer design so probably over the Persian gulf) We used these to fly support for F4-E Phantom -II's when I was still in.> 1500 mph( not knots) top speed according to my dad. Mach 2.2. My dad flew F4's. I'll take his word for it. The Prowler looks dated but has constantly been updated with the latest and greatest avionics and radar jamming capability of any aircraft on the planet at the time. Was recently replaced by the EA-18G Growler.

    thCA76JTXO.jpg new USMC EA-18G Growler
     
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  16. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:05 PM
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    matluth

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    images.jpg 1MHz? old analog
    295819-designcon_2012_rohde_schwarz.jpg 60GHz digital
     
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  17. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:09 PM
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    Wynnded

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    I'd be content to just sit and stare at equipment like that, so many buttons, so little time.
     
  18. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:09 PM
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    matluth

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  19. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:12 PM
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    Wynnded

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  20. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:13 PM
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    matluth

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    A lot. 15 miles away? 5 at worst conditions? (ie: no visual contact by police let alone detection by police radar) It's like a USMC FA-18 super hornet jet fighter/attack pilot painting and lighting up enemy pilot long before enemy pilot even came close to seeing the USMC jet on his crappy ECM/IFF radar. Dusted.:infantry::bananadead:
    I also like="Tesla> Edison"
     
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  21. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:19 PM
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    Wynnded

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  22. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:20 PM
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    Mike

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    yep bank account is running low from it..
    Telsa more than Edison. . Telsa was a genius compared to edison.. ac power rules. But dc rules in smaller applications.
     
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  23. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:26 PM
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    matluth

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    Edison rode Tesla lab coat tails. Tesla the man. hard to move dc 1 mile let alone 1K.AC/DC Need both. like the band :jellydance::jellydance:
     
  24. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:28 PM
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    matluth

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  25. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:38 PM
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    Mike

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    yep bank account is running low from it..
    Westinghouse picked up Tesla. ;) rest was history.

    If i do remember correct tesla did work for edison for awhile i believe. :anonymous:
     
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  26. Jun 7, 2015 at 3:48 PM
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    matluth

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    He did. PBS ran an excellent special on Edison. The good years and bad. (the bad for edison= Westinghouse and tesla) You can probably google it. Worth watching. Enrico Fermi and Marconi were no slouches either.
     
  27. Jun 7, 2015 at 7:08 PM
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    TruckyTruck

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  28. Jun 7, 2015 at 7:21 PM
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    Wynnded

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    I just thought of how these radar detectors will be combined with smart watches to give the driver a haptic alert to their wearable to go with the audible one. Then you could have the tunes too loud and not have to look at the radar detector. And you could integrate it with a taser so every time it alerts....:annoyed:
     
  29. Jun 8, 2015 at 4:16 AM
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    matluth

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    The 9500ix has great specs but didn't fare as well as distance wise as the Redline did. 9500ix still one of the best. Very sensitive. Ideally you want a minimum of a 4:1 ratio in sensitivity over police radar. Apparently the Redline is one the most sensitive out there.
     
  30. Jun 8, 2015 at 6:17 AM
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    matluth

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    If you are considering the purchase of a radar detector, remember it's all about sensitivity. The radar detector has to be more sensitive than the one you are going against with. In other words yours has to detect before you get detected. Example: Take two frequency counters: #1 is a B&K Precision 1803D that measures up to 200MHz and it has a cheesy internal reference oscillator. It's sensitivity is spec'd at 50 mVrms. It will detect and display for example a 100MHz sine wave signal with at least a 50 mVrms (-13dBm) input level. #2 is a Keysight 53220A ,350MHz with a high stability oven controlled internal reference oscillator and it's sensitivity is spec'd at 7 mVrms (-30.1 dBm). That means it will detect and display a 100MHz sine wave signal with a minimum input level of 7 mVrms. Lets say for example the police radar sensitivity is spec'd at 45 mVrms (-13.93 dBm). That would make it slightly better than the B&K counter, but much worse then the Keysight counter. Sensitivity ratio of B&K counter to the police radar is 0.9:1. NOT GOOD. The sensitivity ratio of the Keysight counter to police radar is 6.4:1. VERY GOOD.This is the one to go with. The B&K has same functions and similar frequency response as the Keysight counter. The B&K is $270. The Keysight is $2700 and up. If you are only using the counter to troubleshoot then you would go with the B&K counter. If you need the counter for extreme sensitivity and precision then you need the Keysight counter. This applies to radar detectors which are in a sense doing the same thing but for a different purpose at high sensitivities and frequencies. They are basically counting the RF frequency shift reflected back. Your detector must be much more sensitive than the radar gun detecting it. Period. All detector mfrs publish spec sheets. Read them carefully like you would when buying high end stereo equipment. Loudest isn't the best. Sensitivity is (ie:low noise). It's pointless to go cheap when buying a radar detector. YOU WILL GET PAINTED FIRST. (Note: X band is rarely used anymore and K somewhat.You can disable them to prevent annoying false/ghost detections from random sources being emitted in that wavelength) Disclaimer: Best advice is to obey posted speed limits.

    th.jpgCheesy but good enough for most applications. :)
    th.jpg Not cheesy. One of the best. :headbang:

    thCARWSB3L.jpgNot cheesy. One of the best. :headbang:
    [

    thCAXTEB1W.jpgVery cheesy. The worst ever. Good if you want speeding tickets. Might as well go up to the police officer and ask for a speeding ticket and not buy this. :homer::homer::homer::homer::homer:
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
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