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Payload Stickers?

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2022+)' started by AnalysisParalysis, Dec 10, 2021.

  1. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:07 PM
    #241
    GODZILLA

    GODZILLA ASCM#1 Douchebag formerly known as 50 Buck

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    Except measurements tell you dick all about the composition of the material and that means way more than thickness. 1/8 inch aluminum vs 1/8 inch mild steel vs 1/8 inch high quality steel are all going to behave differently under load and stress. You'd have to assume that the materials are all equal for this method to be of any value. I'd rather not peep through a keyhole and assume I know what the room on the other side looks like.
     
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  2. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:12 PM
    #242
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    It won't be overloaded though, that's the thing.

    Am I the only one curious about the frame dimensions on the Tundra and how they compare to the F150? I'd have to drive 100 miles to find one to measure, and I'm not that curious...
     
  3. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:15 PM
    #243
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    Do you really think the Tundra uses weaker steel in the frame than Ford? It'd be a hell of an interesting data point to get the dimensions.
     
  4. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM
    #244
    Tbrandt

    Tbrandt I read it on an internet forum, it must be true.

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    Purely anecdotal, but I'm guessing door jamb numbers are largely weighted to legal standards. Removing legal responsibility is a huge part of modern business, manufacturing, and construction because people love to take you to court. I work in construction and constantly have to think "Would my decisions and my word hold up in a court of law?" It is an endless paper trail of documented procedures to cover your ass should something go wrong.

    I've seen civil structural engineers use 4x safety factors in their designs, meaning they determine the minimum strength of a base structural design and then make it 4 times stronger than that before they will put a professional stamp of approval on it. That helps to protect them from any legal repercussions should the design fail one day.

    I'm guessing auto makers do the same thing. They overbuild trucks, and then conservatively rate their capacities. This is safer, but it also removes as much responsibility from the automaker as possible should they end up in a lawsuit after a consumer gets in an accident. That's why Sweers said they rate trucks to what they can confidently tow/haul. If any unexperienced Jim or Nancy jumps in their brand new truck and hooks up to their brand new camper but stays within the numbers, they should be relatively fine. An experienced driver with LT tires, proper spring rates and valved suspension for the weight and road conditions, and good weight distribution could probably responsibly push the factory numbers. No automaker is going to give you the time of the day if you want to argue this though, they have plenty of HD trucks they'd like to sell you instead.

    Automakers also have to sell more trucks than their competitors, so that's probably where the proverbial dick measuring contest of towing capacities comes into play. But the numbers are confusing, because anyone who understands payload and GVWR knows that by the time you load up yourself, your family, and all your crap in the bed of your half ton that you just don't have the payload left to pull a trailer anywhere near the max numbers anymore. That way there is a legal line the consumer crossed before the automaker can be deemed at fault for an accident. Sure, someone could be within their towing capacity when their truck and 8000 lb travel trailer blew through that red light and killed someone at the bottom of the hill after their breaks got hot, BUT they were over the GVWR because they had too much weight in the truck when they brought their family and stuff with them. Therefore it is the fault of the consumer, and I would not want to be in this loosing position legally if I were involved in such an accident. Things can get very sour for you personally if you are on the loosing side in court.

    I believe the conservative numbers push everyone to be safer in the long run. Stepping up to an HD truck if you're at the limits of a half ton is a good decision for you and everyone around you because it is safer. They're built to a higher standard and just carry/move/stop weight better.
     
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  5. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:34 PM
    #245
    mass-hole

    mass-hole New Member

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    Does Toyota produce a document like the Ford Body Builders Guides?

    upload_2021-12-29_13-29-1.jpg

    upload_2021-12-29_13-35-32.jpg

    They give you the dimensions, Wall thickness and yield strength of the steel.

    I get what you mean about the truck not being overloaded since its theoretically overbuilt, but with something like the HDPP F150 you at least know they didnt just slap a different sticker on the same truck and call it a day. Almost the entire chassis is different. Frame, springs, shocks, axle, wheels, tires, etc are all unique to the HDPP.

    And on top of that, my 2014 F150 shares the same frame as the HDPP of that year. All 157" trucks run the same exact frame for 11-14. That doesnt mean I think I should go assume I have an 8200 lb GVWR and am good to go over my payload by 500 lbs. I have exceed payload before, but only very briefly for less than a couple miles. In my day to day towing and camping I dont. I tow a 5500 lb GVWR trailer with a truck that has a curb weight of 6140 lbs.
     
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  6. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:39 PM
    #246
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    It isn't a legal or performance "standard" at all. It's a warranty and liability CYA for Toyota, but not you... and it's based on a completely stock configuration, and any "standard" Toyota or Ford or GM, etc wishes to use. And whatever rationale they use is a secret because they never tell us.

    IOW Toyota cannot be held liable for their truck causing an accident if it's over GVWR. They also may deny your warranty if they find out you've been running over GVWR. But they can also deny your warranty if you have a lift, bigger tires, other mods, etc.
     
  7. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:39 PM
    #247
    GODZILLA

    GODZILLA ASCM#1 Douchebag formerly known as 50 Buck

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    Depends on if you reinforce/improve all the components. There is a pervasive assumption that payload is only about shocks, springs, and frames. It's not. It's all aspects of the vehicle. Braking capacity, engine cooling, transmission cooling, gearing, bushings, bolts and nuts holding everything together, traction, cornering, and even the crash performance is all part of it. If you aren't approaching the "upgrades" from a whole vehicle perspective plenty of important factors are not being considered and can have unexpected impacts in various conditions. Putting airbags on a truck so it doesn't sag doesn't make it carry a greater load. Neither does adding a leaf, or changing the shocks, because they don't address all the factors that are affected by adding weight to a vehicle.
     
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  8. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:42 PM
    #248
    GODZILLA

    GODZILLA ASCM#1 Douchebag formerly known as 50 Buck

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    False. They can deny your warranty claim if they can reasonably show that your modification caused the problem. That's a topic for another thread though.
     
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  9. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM
    #249
    Mattedfred

    Mattedfred Just here to research our next tow vehicle

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    I...just...want...to...find...a...2022...Tundra...with...around...1600...lbs...of...payload. LOL
     
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  10. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:49 PM
    #250
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr it's good to get lost once in a while

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    Yeah I mostly agree that people in large numbers are generally stupid. But I think there’s something to driving a truck these days that is akin to how people dress. It’s messenging. They’re advertising capability that isn’t necessarily there. For so many years it was cool to wear Red Wings and flannel shirts and grow a beard. That dude ain’t a lumberjack from Wyoming; he’s an aspiring singer from LA who waits tables. He is advertising skills and a lifestyle that aren’t there. He’s just trying to look the part. Same reason wearing Carhartt anything is so prevalent right now. I remember reading a recent article by a woman bemoaning the beard trend. She was basically saying women in the dating scene are frustrated these days because they can’t tell who the actual men are anymore. Kind of funny, but she has a point…

    I see FAR fewer people buying any ol’ truck and overloading or overtowing than I see people just commuting to work and the grocery store in a truck with a 6” lift and an empty bed. Look at all the overlanding builds where the truck never leaves the pavement. They just want the look of capability. Most of them don’t know or don’t care about their door jamb numbers because they’re not going to do anything with their truck that actually requires a truck. It’s 100% about the stance. It has to have the right lift/level, the right wheels with the right offset, and who cares if they just raised their center of gravity dangerously high with a block lift or lowered their payload by 200 lb with wheels/tires alone. To me, more people buy a lot more than they need and never actually utilize the capability they’re advertising. It’s more of that than just being dangerously stupid IMO.

    Often it’s just for safety, too. They see all the other trucks and think they need to drive one, too, in order to be safe.
     
  11. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:51 PM
    #251
    GODZILLA

    GODZILLA ASCM#1 Douchebag formerly known as 50 Buck

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    You might be able to if it doesn't have to be a 4x4 luxury build. You just might have to wait until production is up enough that there is a good variety of trims and packages on lots. With the current outrageous demand Toyota is going to focus on the bedazzled setups that have a higher profit margin, so the bare bones ones that will have higher payloads probably won't be rolling off the lines for quite a while.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
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  12. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:52 PM
    #252
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    No, they don't as far as I've been able to find.

    Pretty sure the 9.75 axles are the same, the axle rating goes up because of the springs. Wheels, shocks, springs, tires are precisely the things any Tundra owner would upgrade if they intended to haul loads. On the previous gen, the Tundra frame and rear axle were beefier than any on an F150.
     
  13. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:54 PM
    #253
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr it's good to get lost once in a while

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    There probably aren’t enough of us to petition for certifying modest payload increases by doing a certain number of upgrades to the truck like you can do in other countries. Too bad. It would be nice to throw new leaf packs on the rear and upgrade brakes, etc for a certified 500lb bump.
     
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  14. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:55 PM
    #254
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Brand Used Member

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    This. @Mattedfred I think in Canada we only get 4x4s and SR5 is supposedly the lowest trim but if you can skip the TRD Sport and Off Road packages, a DC in that configuration is going to give you the highest possible payload. If that isn't enough for you, I recommend taking a look at GM.
     
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  15. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:57 PM
    #255
    Mattedfred

    Mattedfred Just here to research our next tow vehicle

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    I need the 4WD but none of the luxury items. And, I think you may be right.
     
  16. Dec 29, 2021 at 12:59 PM
    #256
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    It's done in other countries because the GVWR is actually a legal requirement. In the US it isn't, so you can do as you like. I much prefer how it is now rather than get the law and government involved... :thumbsup:

    BTW, the little midsized trucks in other counties are rated to haul over 2,000 lbs also.
     
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  17. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:00 PM
    #257
    Mattedfred

    Mattedfred Just here to research our next tow vehicle

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    A DC would suit me just fine. I'd take a regular cab version if they still offered it. However, the owner of the RV dealership has recommended the TRD Sport Package for the 20" tires, Bilsteins and lowered suspension. Do you think that would add a significant amount of weight?
     
  18. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:01 PM
    #258
    mass-hole

    mass-hole New Member

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    They are not. look at the picture in my post. The lubricant capacity is different and I believe they use the thicker 35 spline axle shafts similar to the Raptor. The axle housing and shaft part numbers are different.
     
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  19. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:08 PM
    #259
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr it's good to get lost once in a while

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    Those little trucks are actually capable, though. Google the differences between a Tacoma and a Hilux. They are wildly different. The rest of the world doesn’t have wide smooth-as-silk roads like the US or the strong preference for a Lexus sedan-like ride out of their pickups like American truck buyers. The rest of the world actually needs midsize HD trucks. Sucks for those of us who would like that here; I’d pick a 70 series or a Hilux all day long over my Tundra, and I love my Tundra.
     
  20. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:20 PM
    #260
    Cpl_Punishment

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    Yes, all that adds weight and I'm not sure how it helps with towing. You can argue 20s may feel more stable but they'll also ride rougher. Everyone I know with trucks who tows RVs does fine with 18s.
     
  21. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:21 PM
    #261
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    So is the Tundra (at least the old one) if you upgrade the obvious weak points. They make it soft for commuters, but we can easily upgrade it to haul loads or bound over whoops in the desert. I'm fine with that and so are most people... except the ones complaining in this thread!
     
  22. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:26 PM
    #262
    OnThaLake

    OnThaLake New Member

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    I'm looking at my truck in the driveway right now, has about 200+ extra pounds of frozen slush on the undercarriage.

    All of this wrangling over assumed "actual" capacity has me realizing the implications of the condition my truck currently is in.

    Maybe Toyota is holding down the official rating to 50% of what would be safe, in good conditions, on a straight and level road.
    But, being conservative as they are, they understand even if the truck won't break at 2x the official capacity, things like long downhills, 200 additional pounds of ice, wind, high temps, low temps, etc can create extreme hazards even though the STATIC capacity of the truck is solid. The truck will behave incredibly differently under certain circumstances when loaded heavy.
    Asserting you can load even heavier is somewhat factual, but would be a far nastier surprise if the above conditions occur when loaded as heavy.

    You are free to "overload" your truck above rated capacity all you want, but it's on you to unload the truck back down closer or below it's rating before you experience adverse conditions.
     
  23. Dec 29, 2021 at 1:30 PM
    #263
    Terndrerrr

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    I’m fine with being over GVWR but under axle ratings. I’m not telling anyone else what they should be comfortable with.

    Plenty of people have trucks that sit at weights over their axle ratings. I’m thinking particularly of a couple of truck camper conversion Tundras on YouTube amd the million-mile Tundras, of course.
     
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  24. Dec 29, 2021 at 2:01 PM
    #264
    Retired...finally

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    Interesting. My Honda Element is rated to tow 1,500 pounds in the US but 1,500 kg in Australia. Does right hand drive increase the towing capacity by 2.2 times?:monocle:
     
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  25. Dec 29, 2021 at 2:14 PM
    #265
    rruff

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    I'm curious what you are thinking the specific differences would be for adverse conditions. For instance I mod my Tundra so it handles better with 2500 lbs than any stock 1 ton with that load... and then it snows. How will this make things worse for me vs the 1 ton?
     
  26. Dec 29, 2021 at 2:28 PM
    #266
    OnThaLake

    OnThaLake New Member

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    Dude, you are really doing some serious mental gymnastics on this subject.

    If it's so safe to do, why doesn't Toyota just do it?

    If it's not a big deal, Toyota could make the claims you do and technically own the half ton market.

    But, to your point, and yes I've read your assertions that the Toyota frame can be "measured" I suspect for some kind of evaluation to reveal the "true" strength....if you run 2500 pounds in your truck, mostly in the bed I presume, in the snow, a few things happen...
    Those heavy duty trucks weigh more, meaning when they run 2500 pounds, it affects the ratio of front/rear distribution less

    Those trucks have heavier tire ratings, something minor, like smacking ruts or train tracks is less likely to cause tire failure
    In the same thought, it's undeniable (unless you really want to go there) that heavy duty trucks have heavier, stronger frames, and in the snow, a minor slide into a ditch or curb with 2500 pounds in a half ton could total out your truck, whereas a heavy duty truck could shrug off the same minor incident, maybe needing an alignment.

    But, of course you wouldn't have such a minor mishap?
     
  27. Dec 29, 2021 at 3:05 PM
    #267
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    Dude... I'm sorry the gymnastics are getting too difficult for you (;)), but...

    Toyota doesn't do it because it would expose them to greater liability and warranty repairs (remember, people are stupid)... and they don't have to... because owners can do it themselves if they want.

    My truck will have near 50/50 weight distribution, vs 61/39 empty, so I don't see that being an issue.

    My tires have higher ratings than the 1 tons and are bigger and fatter. Better traction and flotation.

    I'll also have better suspension than the 1 ton and less weight, so slamming into the ditch will put less force on the frame. Maybe the 1 ton would still win a ditch-slam contest, but it wouldn't be a runaway victory.
     
  28. Dec 29, 2021 at 3:35 PM
    #268
    OnThaLake

    OnThaLake New Member

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    Sorry if I come off rude.

    I don't totally disagree.

    However, I own a half ton truck, and drive Super Duty Ford's at work.

    I've towed 10k and (separately) hauled over 1600 in the bed several times. Slightly over it's ratings.

    With the Super Duty trucks I've towed over 20k on regular basis and carry 2k in the bed, sometimes at the same time.

    Most people who have similar experiences as me would agree, the heavier trucks are always a better choice. The Super Duty trucks handle those aforementioned tasks almost like nothing's there.
    My half ton, and be honest, all half tons really feel the weight. I feel half tons may be getting overrated a bit.
    And it's not that my personal half ton is weak, the new F-150s we have at work feel every bit of a heavy load as my truck.
     
  29. Dec 29, 2021 at 3:46 PM
    #269
    Pac12AfterDark

    Pac12AfterDark New Member

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    There is a thread on here re: 5th wheels.

    Guy swore up and down his tundra was the end all, totally safe, etc.. much the same arguments being made here.

    Anyways to his credit he got a super duty and ae back to correct his posts. Claimed there was just no comparison.
     
  30. Dec 29, 2021 at 5:29 PM
    #270
    rruff

    rruff New Member

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    I'm curious what he did to his Tundra to make it better for towing... or was it stock? No doubt the 1 tons will handle loads much better in stock configuration, because the springs, shocks, and tires are designed for a load, unlike 1/2 tons. I've seen several people state that their Tundra with very reasonable mods carries a load better than a stock 3/4 or 1 ton, though.
     

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