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OVTune 3URFE Tundra ECU Tune Development Thread

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2014+)' started by OVTune, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Nov 9, 2020 at 3:56 PM
    #5011
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    Give me a little time to further investigate and get it sorted out, which I will do.
    It would be great to get you scheduled so we can figure it out, knock it out and finish in a day. I emailed you.
    If you give us a chance to get back to you before just coming to the forum it will be easier, we are really trying to get everyone done and happy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  2. Nov 9, 2020 at 5:31 PM
    #5012
    Seuqoia11

    Seuqoia11 New Member

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    Once we have vf tuner, how does somebody know what “safe” air fuel ratio is? Or when knock occurs?

    Mat has said that the built in air fuel ratios are not very accurate. I know a wide band could be added, and read or logged manually/separately but even with a wide band without knock data how would you know if your over the knock threshold of fuel/timing adjustments.

    Is there a knock reading from the ecu that can be data logged or some other method to find the fine lean line for mpg or max Timing advance before knock?

    I know the factory knock sensor and ecu will do some work to prevent damage but I would prefer the tune/adjustments to stay safe from requiring the factory knock system doing it’s thing full time! Not sure how sensitive or affective the factory knock system is?

    can’t wait for vf tuner!
     
  3. Nov 9, 2020 at 5:38 PM
    #5013
    Dragracer_Art

    Dragracer_Art Well armed member

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    I'm subscribing to your newsletter... since I have this same ECU in my 2020. :thumbsup:
     
  4. Nov 11, 2020 at 7:35 AM
    #5014
    TruckyTruck

    TruckyTruck Dumbest Username

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    Have you scheduled everyone that has responded to the appointment email? Just want to make sure I don’t slip through the cracks. Thanks
     
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  5. Nov 11, 2020 at 7:38 AM
    #5015
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    Not yet. still scheduling people, and some haven't responded yet.


    ALSO, we finally figured out what is causing our emails to be sent to spam or blocked and why some of you guys may not be seeing our emails, or why we may not be seeing yours
     
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  6. Nov 11, 2020 at 8:02 AM
    #5016
    TruckyTruck

    TruckyTruck Dumbest Username

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    Ok, thanks! No rush, just making sure.
     
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  7. Nov 11, 2020 at 9:57 AM
    #5017
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    2020 Tundra will be supported next week (beta)
     
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  8. Nov 11, 2020 at 11:03 AM
    #5018
    azTony

    azTony New Member

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    *** OV Tune Order #4481 *** ECU 0CN21 ***
    2018 Tundra Platimun with Icon Stage 9 w/3.0 and billet UCA, Harrop Elockers, 5.29 on 35’s
    If we have purchased the tune what has to be done to add the vF Tuner?
     
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  9. Nov 11, 2020 at 12:14 PM
    #5019
    art64

    art64 New Member

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    What is this scheduling thing? Scheduling for what? What happens on the schedule day? Data logs, confirmation the tune and the features all work? Just curious. Never heard of this before. Thanks.
     
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  10. Nov 11, 2020 at 1:34 PM
    #5020
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    it's only for folks who still need attention done to their tunes. Yes we setup a day where we go back and forth, files, logs, files and logs until completed. Takes about 2-3 hours
     
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  11. Nov 12, 2020 at 6:15 AM
    #5021
    4firemandan

    4firemandan Superduper Member

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    There are parameters to scan that check for knock and pre knock... its actually kind of complicated with Toyota compared to say, GM... but there ARE things we can scan and watch for changes. (Knock Learn and Knock Correct for example).
    On my SC Tundra the factory knock settings are doing a pretty decent job on managing knock/ping as long as I am keeping the fuel good.

    For fuel/AFR.. I assume you are supercharged. We want to try and stay at the ECM's most lean "readable" number...0.81 Lambda. That's the equivalent of 11.9 AFR which is actually more lean than we want, but the ecm wont read any richer than that on the stock wideband. 10:1= 0.81... 11:1= 0.81.... 11.9:1= 0.81... 12.05:1= 0.82.... and on up. So stay at 0.81 and you are at least 11.9:1

    If you have an aftermarket wideband (HIGHLY recommended), I would suggest to shoot for between 11:1 and 11.5:1. Some aftermarket tuners have said as rich as 10:1.

    Tundras have very tight clearance on the ring lands and if they get too hot we have major problems when they swell. So even though a lot of vehicles are happy at 12.5:1... we need to stay a little "wetter" to keep those cool and where they belong.
     
  12. Nov 12, 2020 at 6:29 AM
    #5022
    Seuqoia11

    Seuqoia11 New Member

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    what’s the “shoot for” on factory sensor and wide band for non sc? Wish I was in the sc club but nope!
     
  13. Nov 12, 2020 at 12:47 PM
    #5023
    4firemandan

    4firemandan Superduper Member

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    Gotcha. Sorry man. I just assumed. Ive actually never tuned a normal aspirated vehicle. Ever since I started it was always a SC so I cant say for certain... probably in the 12.5:1 area though.

    Keep in mind thats just a GUESS with absolutely NO actual experience on it! ;)
     
  14. Nov 12, 2020 at 12:59 PM
    #5024
    HulkSmurf14

    HulkSmurf14 Pulling Hard...

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    Matt...I have been trying to reach out of you with replies in regards to the Nov. 7 meeting...you mentioned in this thread you have experienced messages, etc. going to the spam folder...could this be a case in my case? It's been over 3 days since reply so just checking in...
     
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  15. Nov 12, 2020 at 12:59 PM
    #5025
    snivilous

    snivilous New Member

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    For personal reference with my wideband, on both the TRD and OV tunes I can see as rich as 9.8:1 at full throttle. At low elevation (like <2000ft) I can get pinging on pump gas, though according to my boost gauge I can potentially see over 10psi at that elevation. That's good to know that running that rich is actually beneficial to some extent.
     
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  16. Nov 12, 2020 at 1:17 PM
    #5026
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    *** nevermind I think I found you
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
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  17. Nov 13, 2020 at 2:01 PM
    #5027
    art64

    art64 New Member

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    I emailed you on zen desk for an appointment. 0CD33. Thanks.
     
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  18. Nov 13, 2020 at 6:42 PM
    #5028
    Seuqoia11

    Seuqoia11 New Member

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    How loud/noticeable is ping? With radio on or windows open could you still hear it. Do you need to be listening for it or is it blatantly clear!
     
  19. Nov 13, 2020 at 8:58 PM
    #5029
    snivilous

    snivilous New Member

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    I've experienced ping in two vehicles, the tundra and a jet ski I built. Same sound for both. It's almost like sand rattling around. I wouldn't say it's loud, but it's loud enough to hear over the engine when you're getting on it. I don't remember music being on, or at least not overly loud. I think if you can hear the blower whine, you'll hear the pinging sound. It's not like a definitive "oh that's ping" sound when you first hear it, you'd kind of think pinging would be a clear cut banging sound or something, but really each of those little tings like a grain of sand hitting something (like if you've sand blasted before) is a cylinder pinging and of course that's happening thousands of times a minute so it's this jumble of little tinging noises. Loud? No. Noticeable noise that shouldn't be there? Yes. Easiest way to tell is music off and floor it through one or two gears (with some speed so you don't get tire squealing) and see if the engine sounds normal.
     
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  20. Nov 13, 2020 at 9:05 PM
    #5030
    snivilous

    snivilous New Member

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    On a separate note maybe someone can clarify this, knock (pinging) happens when the ecu can't retard the timing any further correct? The ecu is always trying to run as advanced as possible and will retard to prevent knock, but I assume it eventually can't retard any further (like 0deg or something) and when the engine starts knocking and the ecu can't further correct it is when it starts pinging/knocking. People always say the ecu will retard to prevent knock, but obviously that doesn't always work.
     
  21. Nov 14, 2020 at 6:19 AM
    #5031
    Dragracer_Art

    Dragracer_Art Well armed member

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    FWIW... some of you guys with boost related detonation may want to consider a progressive meth injection system.
    I used kits from www.alkycontrol.com years ago in my boosted Vette and 2 different Buick Grand Nationals.
    I was running 12psi in the Vette and 28psi in the GN's... all on 93 octane + meth.
     
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  22. Nov 17, 2020 at 8:13 PM
    #5032
    4firemandan

    4firemandan Superduper Member

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    You're kind of correct... At least in the ballpark.

    Ping/Knock is the fuel igniting earlier than it is supposed to. This happens when we have heat, pressure, and volitile fuel.

    We can reduce that by reducing heat (intercoolers, water injection), reducing pressure (less advance, less boost), or making the fuel less volitile (higher octane, methanol injection).

    As far as the ecm.... Different manufacturers manage it differently.

    GM has spark advance (+) to add and knock retard (-) to take away when it thinks there's detonation or soon-to-be detonation.

    Toyota has a very complex formula to calculate the current spark.. it's literally like 5 things that it scans and calculated... But, included in there IS a form of timing pulling when it hears or predicts ping/knock.

    And yes, if you've taken out all you can.. And still having ping/knock... that's not good at all.

    That being said, we want to tune the engine to NOT NEED to pull it at all.

    Typically if you're pulling timing to reduce knock, then you're likely leaving some power on the table.

    Example: Instead of tuning for 20 degrees, getting knock, and ecm pulling 4.. (16 net).... we'd be better off tuning for 17 or 18 and getting no knock/reduction at all.

    Every truck is different obviously... Those numbers are just an example.

    Best thing we can do is scan and retune to find that happy place on each vehicle.
     
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  23. Nov 17, 2020 at 8:36 PM
    #5033
    snivilous

    snivilous New Member

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    So when I go to low elevation and can get knock. I'm running whatever the highest available octane is (91/93) which is what the tune is setup for, and I have the intercooler in the blower obviously to try and reduce temperature, so when it starts to knock the only options left is less advance and/or less boost. So I assume once I hear it pinging that all the advance has been pulled at that point, so doesn't that mean regardless of how the tune is setup that it would be knocking under those conditions? I guess that's really my question, if you can hear it knocking then the ecm has done all it can to try and stop it but the octane/boost/intake temperature is exceeding the limits that the ecm has control over right? For example if I had a tune for 85 octane but was running 93 octane, wouldn't it still end up knocking with the same setup since it would pull the advance to 0 in both cases?

    And by extension of that, why are there different tunes for different octane levels? Shouldn't the ecm be trying to run as much advance as possible and once it senses knock it pulls back a bit? Isn't it always trying to ride the line of being on the edge of knock? So why tune for different octane if the ecm can adjust for it?

    This isn't some big issue for me, I just don't give it all the boosty bois the handful of times I drive to a low elevation state, I'm just curious about the technicalities and I also just fired up a freshly built supercharged LS in my buggy so will be tuning for all this shit in the near future. Thanks for the explanations!
     
  24. Nov 17, 2020 at 8:42 PM
    #5034
    snivilous

    snivilous New Member

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    A follow on question, which got me thinking from the other supercharging thread you just posted in firemandan, is why do you need to tune for the injectors? Shouldn't the ecu just self adjust for it? It's shooting for whatever afr, and if it has huge injectors then shouldn't it just decrease the amount of time they're open and if you have small injectors it needs to keep them open longer? It seems like a lot (or a couple main) variables would be automatically accounted for just by the ecu trying to shoot for certain parameters (like not knocking, shooting for a target afr, etc.). Is the ecu not capable of figuring that stuff out so it needs to be tuned and told the specifics? Or is it's band of self tuning just really narrow or some other reason?
     
  25. Nov 18, 2020 at 6:44 AM
    #5035
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    The way the ECU works is when it is not knocking, the ECU will learn "up" the advance and can increase ignition (based on the KCS/ KCLV), then when it knocks it will reduce. So the ECUs ignition strategy is to always find the point of knock and reduce from, which makes ignition as efficient as it can be.

    When tuning, you want to keep the ignition a few degrees short of where actual knock will occur. This leaves the ECU it's room to use it's strategy, but also leaves enough room for the ECU to correct back. If you tune ot the ragged edge of knock, then the ECU can't use it's strategy effective and you'll always be on the knock limit.

    So getting some knock on occasion is completely normal.
    Getting consistent knock, in the same RPM range, same load, which can be easily repeated (say you knock at 4000 RPM every time you floor it) then that's a problem.






    The ECU can only adjust so far. Combine LFT and SFT is the maximum it can trim.
    But the ECU cannot adequately trim out low PW on huge injectors, on top of that it is always using the "Math" for the stock injectors, and will continually be wrong, will run rich, try to correct, and try to correct. it will put it in an endless loop of the entire mathematical formula for calculating fuel wrong, and the ECU is really not THAT good at learning and trimming it.
     
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  26. Nov 18, 2020 at 8:43 AM
    #5036
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    89663-0CAA43 is now supported in vF Tuner For testing, once all good we start releasing all ECUs

    0CK70 for the Tundra 4.6L is also available
     
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  27. Nov 19, 2020 at 4:04 PM
    #5037
    4firemandan

    4firemandan Superduper Member

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    Looks like Matt got most of your questions but I'll add my 2 cents too.

    On the octane and 85 vs 93 tune question, (and building on what we already talked about with knock)
    A 93 tune would basically be calling for more total advance than an 85 tune. The higher octane would be able to hopefully allow the extra spark, and therefore extra power... Because of the better octane.

    As far as the injectors, that theory IS correct.. in regular driving mode (closed loop).
    That's exactly why some people throw in, say, 550 injectors and are ok at cruise... The injectors give way more fuel, the 02 sensors say "pull fuel"... You get -25 fuel trim corrections.. everything's kinda still ok...
    BUT... When you go wide open, the vehicle enters "open loop" mode where it does not use the O2 sensors anymore.
    It uses a few other calculations and charts based on expected fuel need... And this is why you want to have the injectors that match those calculations, as Matt said.

    In theory, you'll be getting more fuel then it thinks.. So that's better than less. But you really don't want to just be guessing. Kinda like taking an axe into surgery, instead of a scalpel.
     
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  28. Nov 21, 2020 at 4:51 PM
    #5038
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    Hey guys/gals.

    We are expecting to have the rest of the Tundra ECUs finished up for release in vF Tuner at the end of this month.
    At the same time when released, we will be releasing our tune packs again (which come with open / editable / customizable / tunes from us).

    Direct shift and gearlock on certain ecus are TBD, but will be free in vF tuner of course.
    If you bought our flash kit, you can upgrade to vF Tuner for free.

    We will be scheduling more 1 on 1s again monday

    thank you everyone.
     
  29. Nov 21, 2020 at 6:30 PM
    #5039
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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    17 ECUs (17 calibration IDs, not 2017 ECUs specifically) to be released in vF Tuner Monday for beta support.


    We are happy to announce worlds first, beta support for Tundra 4.7L coming at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  30. Nov 21, 2020 at 6:30 PM
    #5040
    OVTune

    OVTune [OP] New Member

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