May go back to the 5.7

I meant there is more to reliability than an engine. In which the new features and most other vehicles don’t hold a candle to the tried and true Tundra, seeing as it’s more reliable than most other vehicles.

“Better” is objective in some cases and subjective in others, person to person.

“better features” for you may mean absolutely annoying dinging, beeping, flashing, doing things by itself when I never told it to, and otherwise less confidence inspiring and more annoying and in the way, and altogether impossible to enjoy (for me). To each their own. I would never claim new vehicles aren’t fun for ANYONE EVER. but I will quickly state they’re not drivable for a lame person like me.

When the 05–06 and 16-17 Tundras (and 2019 Silverado 3500HD 6.0 gassers) are all gone I’ll be completely out of light duty, medium duty, and heavy duty trucks to drive. What else is there if you don’t like a driving computer dinging at you and doing things “for you” anymore? Haha

 

You can’t determine what vehicle will be “historically significant” while living in the present. Have you seen what minty 25 year old Tacoma’s, older yet Toyota Pickups, or Any year (even the latest) FJ cruisers are going for? I’d wager that mint examples of the last of the V8 tundras will one day be a commodity. In the mean time that’s not why I own it. I, as well as many others don’t want all this hot garbage technology they’re putting in the new trucks. You can’t even back a trailer or hit a large insect on the highway without it slamming in the brakes and flashing lights at you on the dash. I just want a honest reliable truck with a good power plant and a reputation for dependability. The most I need for frills is apple carplay and a back up camera. Even on my 2017 I got Carplay with an aftermarket Kenwood that operates with way less glitches than the OEM crap. If I was buying a luxury or sports car then perhaps I’d be more interested in some of these new features. In my truck, no thank you!

As for the the GM LS engine being better, they’re good engines and are great for building for maximum power. For an everyday truck engine it does nothing better. Oil consumption, piston slap, failed lifters etc. I’ll still take the 3UR, which performs beyond my wildest dreams with a little boost and retains much of its reliability when tuned properly.

 

Dude just stop. A unicorn mint condition mid 80’s Toyota truck isn’t that valuable. Nor is it representative of an investment grade vehicle with rare, or historical provenance. A truly investment grade vehicle is one that is worth so much damn money that you could make money on a total basket case even after the cost of a full frame of concours grade restoration.

Think Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gullwing, Toyota 2000 GT, matching number or otherwise rare VIN # muscle cars/Corvette’s, or more recently something like a McClaren F1. For an example a McClaren F1 is almost impossible to total for insurance purposes, the entire car can be recreated by McClaren including air freighting the remains to England cheaper than an insurance payout to total one. Pretty much if the VIN number, frame number, build plate etc remains intact the car is worth totally rebuilding.

That will never be a situation an old Toyota Tundra will be in. Maybe old Land Cruisers, if they’re not already there, but not Tundras.

 

This made me chuckle a little. Every time our ES slams on the brakes while backing up in a parking lot to avoid hitting an invisible pedestrian I lose a few hours of my life. It also does that sometimes while backing out of the garage when the pavement is wet from rain. Overall though, I like most of the features and I'm an old geezer that's taken a while to come around.

We had to convince my dad to give up the keys at about 85. It really takes away a seniors independence. By the time I can't safely drive in another 15-20 years (if I last that long) I hope autonomous driving vehicles are common.

 

LOL. Just think what self driving will do for crusty old bastards in the future.

“Hey Toyota! Take me to the lake and put the boat in the water!”

“Hey Toyota! Head to the VFW, I’m going to meet the boys and get tore up from the floor up, then you can take me home in time to yell at kids to get off my lawn when school gets out.”

 

I don’t recall saying it would ever be worth the same as a Benz gullwing, but OK. You sir are insufferable and can overlook any critical point made. Like talking to a wall. I never claimed it was going to be worth 100k, but to be worth every dollar paid for it when new is not bad.

 

The problem is the cost of maintaining that older vehicle to the level it retains that value. Usually you’re looking at a lot more $$$ spent to keep it in that mint condition, than you gain in value. If a restoration is needed, the math is even less favorable.

There are exceptions, but the vast majority of regular cars and trucks are never going to be investment grade. The ones that will be are few and far between, and sadly in most cases out of reach for us mere peons.

 

I agree with all of this. However, none of this supports the comment that the 2nd Gen Tundra is uncompetitive. An uncompetitive vehicle wouldn’t have flown off of dealer lots when it’s replacement was announced. Nor would it be worth more than $10,000 more than it was new. You have a preference, and that’s great, but that preference doesn’t generalize to everyone.

 

Your argument holds no water.

ALL new cars and trucks have flown off dealer lots. ALL used cars are obscenely over valued right now.

It is a mistake to conflate the current market with a what would be happening under more normal market conditions where there is a reasonable supply of new vehicles for sale.

 

The fact that 2021 Tundras were in even more demand than before (whilst the new vehicle market was already nuts) once people learned the V8s were discontinued is proof enough. This very forum had plenty of conversations with people rushing to get a 2021 before the V8 was eliminated. The only “argument” that doesn’t hold water is that the 2nd Gens are uncompetitive because you have a different preference.

 

“GMs are just as reliable, and the 5.7L is an also ran v8.”

 

Conversations on an Internet forum lamenting the V8 going away are not a reliable indicator of significant increases in demand for an old truck with a V8. If there is one thing I’ve observed in two decades of being an auto enthusiast it’s that most of the stuff we as enthusiast customers want or care about, the vast majority of the buying public could care less about.

 

You can hate me all you want to for that observation, but I have more personally observed data points of the pre-variable displacement GM V8’s lasting to 400-500K on the odometer than I do Toyota 3UR-FE trucks doing the same. The 3rd party contractor BNSF uses to haul crews runs a fleet of Suburban/Yukons and Expeditions. They’re not maintained well, they see a ton of idling time, they’re driven by indifferent hired drivers. Day in and day out.

I’ve ridden in more Suburban/Yukons with over 350K to up to 500K than I care to contemplate. The damn things just keep going. The rest of the truck will be rough as a cob, creaking, stinking like the driver, and a miserable rolling cess pit; but the cockroach GM LS architecture V8 and automatic transmission seem to defy all of it and keep working.

The Fords are all trash heaps though, especially the 5.4L V8’s. The newer ones have 3.5 EB’s and those actually seem to hold up, but the Fords fall apart everywhere else with great alacrity. Almost as if Ford wants parts of the interior to fall on passengers, for example the adjustable AC vent in the 2nd row of one fell out and smacked me in the head the other day on a mine property road.

 

Again, not conclusive, but my dealer never sold Tundras like they did once the V6TT (Troublesome Turbos) were announced. Even more so than other models.

 

Do they have great fields awash in new model 2022 Tundras that are unsold?

Did the salesman tell you that? Because those guys like never ever say things to move inventory.....

 

I have a lot of experience with GMs as well. Those v8s aren’t bad, but I (and my parents) have taken quite a few fullsize GMs well past 150k miles, and it is nowhere near as uneventful an experience as taking a Tundra to that milestone or well beyond.

My 5.3L Yukon XL is currently at 160k miles. That stupid motor has let us down in the same way as the others—the cylinders it shuts down get fouled to the point that it misfires and/or goes into limp mode. It helps to prevent the AFM, but it still drinks 2qt of oil every 5k miles (which is actually WITHIN SPEC). It has needed motor mounts, battery cables, heater core lines, and more spark plugs and cans of AC Delco upper engine cleaner than I can count. It is now starting to shift weird. Its days are numbered at my house. I am looking for used prices to bottom out. I’m ready to move on because it has already stranded my wife twice. That’s twice more than every Toyota my family has ever owned. Combined.

We have also had electrical issues with most of our full size GMs. Our old ‘02 Suburban would die when turning right on an incline (took forever to figure out that the wiring harness rubbing on the steering column). That same Suburban’s rear end grenaded at 200k miles (no towing). It was on its second water pump and power steering pump. The AC compressor went out at 260k, which was going to cost more than the truck was worth, and that’s when I threw in the towel. The way GM trucks are put together is a real head scratcher. One example: if you want to do a transmission drain/fill, you have to loosen or remove a few exhaust hangers and ratchet-strap the exhaust pipe out of the way to even drop the pan. A lot of the routine maintenance items are like that—stupid extra steps because the thing was not well thought out. And they have only grown more complicated over time.

I’m not going to pretend my Tundra is an investment grade vehicle, but generally speaking 2nd gen Tundras have historically retained the most of their initial purchase price in the segment (yes, some limited editions or trims of domestics are better). This is true of all Toyota trucks and body-on-frame SUVs. There’s a quantifiable reason for this, and that reason is that they are simply better made and longer lasting with fewer repairs.

 

The only reasons to buy a Tundra new or used vs. the competition are reliability, build quality, and cost (in the past). The Tundra loses to the competition in every other catagory. If this new model proves to truly be problematic and losses the reliability edge, it's toast.

 

Agreed.

When factoring the vehicle as a whole Toyota does very well.

 

I visit their lot quite often. I know what moves and doesn’t on that lot. I have for years.

You have your opinion and you’re sticking to it. Good thing it has absolutely no bearing on how competitive a truck the Gen 2 Tundras are.

By the way, I never claimed the 2022 Tundra was uncompetitive. Them flying off the lots is completely irrelevant. The fact that 2021 Tundras flew off of lots is, however, relevant to a claim they are “uncompetitive.”

 

Did you observe a lot of new cars lingering on car lots of any brand in 2021?

No you did not, because there weren't any. Your argument is stupid.

 

Stupid is not being able to tell the difference between a personal opinion and a fact. Carry on.

 

Well you're making an argument about sales of a make and model vehicle being exceptional in the context of a market where any car on any lot of any make an model would sell. It is not valid to claim the 2021 Tundra was an exceptional seller compared to anything else when literally every make and model of new car or truck has flown off the lot for the past 18 months or so.

Point out a model of any 1/2 ton truck that hasn't sold every single one in record time over the last 18 months. Go ahead, try. Even Nissan has managed to sell their Titan. I haven't seen a new Titan at the Nissan dealer in months.... and virtually no one bought those damn things when other trucks could be had.

For example looking at the Pre-Covid 2019 sales numbers shows the Tundra was not doing well sales wise compared to 2018. That was a normal non supply constrained automotive market.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/0...ed-ford-by-23045-units-in-2019-calendar-year/

 

Try understanding the argument before attempting to refute it. I didn’t say Tundra sales were “exceptional.” I said an uncompetitive truck wouldn’t fly off the lot as people rushed to get it before the V8 was discontinued. Plenty of evidence of that fact on this forum that you try to dismiss with a wave of the “they are enthusiasts” hand.

 

That’s assuming future grand-pops will be crusty hardened veterans. Much more likely they’ll continue to be whining children from birth to death haha

 

It isn’t even a fight. One of us has an opinion that is impervious to any facts and treats that opinion as fact. The other one knows there are plenty of people who find Gen 2 Tundras “competitive”.

 

I believe we are decades away from the V8 actually going away. While I do agree an auto enthusiast myself we do differ from a majority however they do not want to lose out on that money either. Before my complications with my leg and back that lead to me leaving my job as a Technician I worked for FCA now Stellantis for several years. I learned how to fix stuff before they came out and sign the usual don't tell anyone stuff. Ram sells so many Hemi engines in the 1500 trucks that if you look on the dealer website it shows a Ram 1500 with a V6 engine as a rare engine. Stellantis (FCA) costumers are really hated by the EPA too they have bought more hellcat engines in Challengers and Chargers then originally thought and with the Ram TRX demand being high Stellantis can afford to pay whatever fines EPA sends their way due to the customer. The Raptor R is around because the TRX exists.
I have no doubt in my mind that if the EPA somehow forced Stellantis to drop the Hemi in the 1500 a good percentage would jump up to the 2500. Pickup trucks are the bread and butter for all the Detroit Automakers. Even with Ford Ecoboost being the best seller for F150s if you combine all half ton sales thanks to GM and Ram the V8 last time I checked was still the top seller overall.
This is why I always chuckle when someone says the V8 is going away.

 

Wow. Folks have a lot of time on their hands to reply all day long - How do you put a thread on Mute? And then how do you tell a non Toyota guy to move over to a GM or Ford or any other forum site to discuss his favorite trucks with them and leave us the hell alone???