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King shocks riding incredibly firm after shackle install

Discussion in 'Suspension' started by irishpride114, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. Jan 13, 2017 at 11:59 AM
    #1
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    So I had the rest of my front suspension installed yesterday including rear shackles and bushings. The front King coilover's are doing great especially for having 700lb springs installed; much much better than I was expecting. Here is my problem---While driving the 45mins home on the 2-lane highway, my (Kings with clickers) rearend is now super firm. This morning on the way to the shop, is was great feeling, not plush, but pretty close. Any ideas on what this could be?

    This is what I know:

    Rear sway bar is still installed.

    Last week I had the rear shocks purged and refilled as my ride (rear king shocks) was pretty rough, but softer then they are now. Ride returned back to normal.

    The drive to the install shop this morning, rear shocks were performing normally and felt good/normal. The ride home was very firm for the vast majority of the trek. It almost feels like the shock isn't moving. That being said, there were times the rear end felt plush, but it was few and far in between.

    Toytec said I gained 1" on the rear shackles, even though the shop put them on 1.5" They don't think anything is wrong with the shackles. Their 1" measurement was taken from the center of the center hub to fender well. My measurement was taken from the ground to fender well, my measurements state I gained 2" from previous measurements. Both measurements I took were from nearly the exact same spot; my driveway is at a incline.

    King says I am out of the normal operating range for their rear OEM shocks. I can either get them revalved or have a custom set of shocks made to compensate for the new rear shackles. My measurements for the current shock state is 6-3/8" shaft exposed. This from the bottom of the shock to the weld point right above the bottom eyelet. Total shock length while mounted is 22-1/2" to 23", depending on how close I'm to the top of the shock. Basically where I thought the space would be between the top two bushing and the center of the bottom eyelet.

    King also mentioned I should take the rear shocks and move them from their softest setting, and go firmer 2-3 clicks and see if it helps; then test drive. Then change the adjusters to the firmest setting to confirm the adjusters are working as they should; then test drive and confirm.

    King mentioned I could lower the setting on the shackles from the 1.5" setting to the 1" setting. That would put me nearly level; as I'm real close to a 1/2" rake. Granted my front end hasn't settled yet, so that number will surely change.

    I don't feel or hear any odd noises coming the rear ended area.

    I'm sure I forgot something. Any ideas?
     
  2. Jan 13, 2017 at 12:00 PM
    #2
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    I have played with the clickers some, and have taken some of the firmness out, but it's still pretty firm. Much more firm then it was before the shackles were added.
     
  3. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:18 PM
    #3
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    So there's two separate issues here.
    First, even with a 3/4" shackle, the OE Kings will bottom out before the suspension will. Meaning if the rear end suspension drops out fast enough, the shock will be the suspension limiter. This is why King stated you are outside of the operating range for their shocks.

    Second, the reason the ride changed is absolutely a result of the shackles. Shackle lifts are a cheap fix, but they beget other problems. The longer the shackle, the more you will preload the leaf pack and decrease payload. As the lever increases (shackle is the lever), the ride height changes but also pushes the ends of the leafpack out laterally (making the pack straighter/flatter at ride height) which in tern preloads the leaf pack. Because the pack is more loaded when compared to a stock length shackle, the perceived ride inside the cab is "stiff" or "bumpy" and is exacerbated by the fact that the leaf pack has a progressive spring rate. T'is an absolute result. Shackle lifts suck other than to lift the rear of the truck higher.

    Now that said, there are some valving tricks you can do to make it play nice together. I did a few revalves on mine and am completely happy with how mine is performing now. For reference, I have the OE Kings (without clickers) and added the Total Chaos 3/4" lift shackles. Here is my final valving.

    Compression
    175-.010
    160-.010
    100-.008
    145-.012
    130-.012
    115-.012
    100-.012
    Rebound
    .010 full stack

    Nitrogen charged to 160 psi


    Also for reference, @jlee has basically my same setup with no issues either. Shackle lifts suck man. Sorry to say it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
    cavalry bear, jlee, Hattori and 8 others like this.
  4. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM
    #4
    TheBeast

    TheBeast The Beach

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    good info here.
     
  5. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:43 PM
    #5
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    I wish someone had told me this before hand. As everyone raved about how shackles improved their ride. As I would have looked in other directions. Lol such is life.

    So what is my best recourse of action here to keep the rear height as I now have 3"s in the front with the newly added oe king coilovers with 700lb springs? Take the shackles out and get a longer shock? Would this take the extra preload off of the leaf springs and return the plush ride while still keeping the needed height? Or take king up on the offer to have them revalved for free? Or even both?

    What is T'is?

    Will removing my rear sway bar help any? As I am getting ready to remove it as I had planned on it anyways.
     
  6. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:46 PM
    #6
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    King stated the rear psi recommendations was 90psi. If it felt to mushy I could go up to 110 or so. Granted mushy is not my problem lol.


    I did play with adjusts last night and it helped some, but still no plush ride like before. But I see now why it only helped a bit.
     
  7. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:53 PM
    #7
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    Honestly, IMO 700# coil spring is way too much for a stock 2nd/3rd gen tundra. If you have a plate bumper and possibly a winch, sure, 700# is the way to go. But the effective angle on the coilovers is damn near perfect. I run the 600# spring on mine, and that's with the added weight of the supercharger. IMO too many people are obsessed with ride height. The reality is you're not going to clear any larger of a tire with more front lift (separate from a drop bracket lift) than you will with a stock truck. The suspension still moves up and down, parked ride height is only one position. The truck itself will set ride height. Try to overcome that and you'll end up playing games like you are now with trying to add more rear lift which in turn fucks with the valving and custom shock lengths and blah blah blah. My truck is sitting on only 2.75" of front lift, the 3/4" shackles on the rear, and 35/12.50/18's and it looks and rides tits.

    If it were me...I would suggest mirroring my setup. But everyone has their own individual wants. To some aesthetics is more important than ride quality. I'm not one of them.

    T'is = It is. T'is the season to be jolly........

    I have the TRD sway bar on mine. Just saying.
     
  8. Jan 13, 2017 at 1:56 PM
    #8
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    King is trying to give you a cheap fix. The lowest you can go with one of their IFP shock (non-emulsion) is 90 psi. But nitrogen psi is not a substitute for valving. Valve for operating PSI (150) and micro changes to the nitrogen for additional fine tuning.
     
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  9. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:03 PM
    #9
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ Moderator Staff Member

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    I learned some tech today....never messed with shackles on a vehicle until the Tundra.

    I went down the coach builder shackles money train, and even with the 5160's in the rear I didn't feel the ride was improved.
     
    irishpride114 [OP] likes this.
  10. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:06 PM
    #10
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    I have the 700lb springs on the recommendation of King due to the Magnum front bumper and winch. They thought it would sag to much and end causes problems in the end. It rides pretty good, but not plush. But I knew that going in.

    I have 3"s in the front now, but assume it will settle a 1/2" or so in the next couple days.

    So just to make sure I'm on the same page....

    After it the front settles and I get a better idea of height. Order 3/4" shackles and replace the Toytec's. Would I then get the rears revalved from king or buy new custom length shocks. I really don't want to buy new custom shocks for $1100.

    I don't tow very much and when I do, it's typically never more then a few thousands pounds. Off-roading is inline with deer camps in the backwoods, logging style roads and the such.

    If this sounds about right, I can order the new shackles today. With your new valving, how does your rear feel now? Plush, firm, etc?
     
  11. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:08 PM
    #11
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    sorry for all the questions. I just never expected for this to arise so I never researched this part of the equation. None of the people I talked to ever hinted this could happen.

    So should I go get my rears inflated to 150ish or?

    I'm just dumbfounded now.
     
  12. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:13 PM
    #12
    Vizsla

    Vizsla Don’t eat the brownies!

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    Are you sure the shackles where tightened with the trucks weight on the springs? It will do exactly what you describe.
     
  13. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:16 PM
    #13
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    The shop stated they tighten the shackles after the put the truck on the ground. Should they not have done that? Granted I don't know if they did it in the air or on the ground.
     
  14. Jan 13, 2017 at 2:39 PM
    #14
    ej63090

    ej63090 New Member

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    I think the raving on the shackles ride improvement goes hand in hand with replacing the coils/shocks. Adding shackles on an already improved suspension would probably make the ride worse.

    Lifting always worsens the ride, however upgrading the shocks improves the ride - likely more than just the offset of the lift.
     
  15. Jan 13, 2017 at 3:11 PM
    #15
    csuviper

    csuviper Moderator Staff Member

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    Did you install the new bushings with the shackles?
     
  16. Jan 13, 2017 at 3:23 PM
    #16
    joem1cha3l

    joem1cha3l New Member

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    Travis, if you decide you need to sell the shackles to go a different route.....im definitely interested.
     
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  17. Jan 13, 2017 at 4:24 PM
    #17
    irishpride114

    irishpride114 [OP] New Member

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    Yes I did.
     
  18. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:00 PM
    #18
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    700#'s on the front is good then given the bumper and winch. I wouldn't go custom shocks given your setup (personally). You've got a hell of a good foundation. Given your aesthetic requirements (limited rake), I would remove some preload out of your coilovers and go with a 3/4" or the Coachbuilder .625" shackles. You won't have as much lift, but I bet the ride will be significantly better. At the end of the day, ride height is mostly about aesthetics. Yes there are some differences if you are building a crawler, but nobody is going to make a crawler out of a 2015 Tundra. 1/2" of preload isn't going to be the difference of you making it out to your backwoods over logging roads.
    If it's still too stiff, I would take King up on the revalve. Given you have clickers, they typically valve those lighter on the compression side such that the middle of the clicking range would be equivalent to what I have now. If you want softer, you can lower it, if you want stiffer, you can increase it. When they revalve, they will recharge it at their default 150.

    All the suggestions you've got so far are lip stick on a pig. Cheap/easy ways to try to make what you have work. Especially the bit about dropping the nitrogen pressure. You really want a good nitrogen charge in the nitrogen cavity. It helps push the IFP back on rebound and prevents the shock from hydrolocking.

    The compression valving I have in my shocks are what's known as a flutter stack. It allows for a very plush ride over slow shaft speed movements (around town, speed bumps, curbs, kittens, priuses), but the mid/high speed shims I upped the valving so it can handle bigger hits/mild whoops/wash at medium speed without blowing all the way through the shock. You'll notice that the 145-100 shims are all thicker than the 175 and 160 shims. The 100 shim in between is the flutter shim that allows the slow speed shims to flex easier. I also ran a full 10 stack on rebound mostly in part because of the unsprung weight of the rear end. I run 35" tires which are a lot heavier than the stock ones. The thing is with valving...there is no out of the box answer. Everyone has different preferences on ride characteristics and different suspension setups, different weight they carry (full sized spare, plate bumpers, RTTs, spare fuel, water, etc.). All this shit comes into account. IMO there is no such thing as out of the box. Valving should always be tuned to the driver and the vehicle. This is why every one of my vehicles that I tune, I weigh the truck on a scale that has separate pads for front/rear weight and calculate unsprung weight based on whatever additions I have (big brake kits, wheels, tires, etc.). From there it's trial and error for MY preferences. Keep in mind you have clickers. They reduce the shock oil flow through the adjuster orifice into the resi. This is kind of a cheater method to add/remove some compression damping without having to revalve or a bypass. Meaning you likely won't have exactly the same valving that I have.

    King also has a phenomenal tuning department. But help them help you. The more information you can give them, the better response you will get. As an example, I've pasted an email below I sent to them (way back in the day before I knew anything about shock tuning). They gave me an excellent starting point which would probably be fine for 95% of the people out there. I'm OCD as fuck and expect a lot out of my suspension. If it's not exactly how I want it, I try again.

    Blah blah...tl;dr. At the end of the day I'm just one asshole on the internet. My advise is based on my preferences, my opinions, and my experiences. And you know what they say about opinions. Good luck to ya bud.


    Sample email to king tuning: tuning@kingshocks.com

     
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  19. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:20 PM
    #19
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    One other note @irishpride114. At least you have the balls to admit when you purchase something and it doesn't meet your expectations. At this day in internet age, too many people are stubborn to justify shitty purchases, despite fact vs. fiction, and will argue it all day long. It's not rocket science, but it is science. I by no means claim to be a suspension genius. I'm not the one building the shocks or a-arms, but I know the difference between a well tuned/proper geometry suspension and out of the box whatever. I'm the asshole that cycles my suspension, measures for bump steer, and tunes to my liking. And if something sucks...I'm the first to admit it, regardless of how much money I spent.
     
  20. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:41 PM
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    831Tun

    831Tun heartless Bastrd

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    Lesson #2 for the day. Thank you, jberry813. I wish I'd had this info before I ordered my ADS c/os with the 700Lb. springs. So, sounds like, a different leaf pack would be the best option for rear lift? Depending, of course, on the intended use.
     
  21. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:45 PM
    #21
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    If you are an ADS man, for the love of god please talk with Matt at MCM. He's got a titties Deaver leaf pack (K37) and custom shackles and ADS bypasses that fit the factory mounts. If my truck wasn't a tow pig, that's what I would have.
     
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  22. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:51 PM
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    zcarpenter92

    zcarpenter92 Yotas, Coronas and 'Merica

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    Not trying to ambush ya with another question, but what would you recommend for a leaf pack on a Tundra that does pull occasionally, but still provides a near stock ride without one?
     
  23. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:52 PM
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    831Tun

    831Tun heartless Bastrd

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    I did get my c/os from Matt but am running some Fox 2.5 RR in the rear. I do tow a lot but usually short distance and not over 4k.
     
  24. Jan 13, 2017 at 6:53 PM
    #24
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    Define "occasionally" and how much weight.
     
  25. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:03 PM
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    zcarpenter92

    zcarpenter92 Yotas, Coronas and 'Merica

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    Maybe once every month or two, and a max of 3,000 lbs. Not towing much nowadays but I don't do hardly any wheeling either.
     
  26. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:03 PM
    #26
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    That's nothing. Go with MCM.
     
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  27. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:18 PM
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    zcarpenter92

    zcarpenter92 Yotas, Coronas and 'Merica

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    Deaver K37's?
     
  28. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:25 PM
    #28
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist Staff Member

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    Yes, and MCM's shackle. You'll flex the pack up and down slightly better and his bypasses are designed for it.
     
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  29. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:41 PM
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    zcarpenter92

    zcarpenter92 Yotas, Coronas and 'Merica

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    Would that leaf be overkill or not as effective if not combined with bypass shocks?
     
  30. Jan 13, 2017 at 7:45 PM
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    csuviper

    csuviper Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not getting how 1/4" lift height difference on the rear will change the suspension so drastically. I get that it will be rougher if your fully compressing the shock to its internal bumps at 1" and not at 3/4" but I don't think that is what is going on here.
    Extremely stiff ride in the rear to me means that the rear isn't cycling like it should. Just not seeing the 1/4" being the problem there.

    I have had my rear shackles set at 1.5" and dropped down to 1". Same feel between the two heights. Not too stiff. Not a major difference from the 1" block I had before either.
     
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