Introduction/Towing Help needed

Hey all of Tundras.com,

I am a very long time lurker, reader, and Tundra Owner. However, I am not active on message boards, and do not log in often. So please do not think I am ignoring anyone, but this kind of thing is not what I normally do. I also am a private individual, so as you see, I am very silent on myself. But I appreciate the info I have gleaned from everyone over the course of the last five years.

Now, to my question:

I have read the threads above about towing. I have followed the videos that were posted, and I have downloaded three towing calculators (two posted as excel spreadsheets, and one from one of the videos). But here is my struggle. I have spent probably three hours working the numbers and I am getting mixed answers on the calculations. So here I am asking for help.

I have a 2010 Toyota Tundra (5.7, 4x4, usk56L-PSTSKA engine. I do have the tow package, trans cooler, and level III (maybe IV) hitch.

Running the numbers, it looks as though I am around 5600 lb curb weight, Towing capacity of around 9K. A GCVW of 15,300 lbs.

Front Axle = 4000 lb
Rear Axle = 4150 lb

The tag said weight limit 1300 lb but I saw somewhere else it is up to 1500 lbs. So I play it easy on my end.

Between all my gear (I load roughly 1000 lbs before hitch and trailer), but I also do not have a spare tire, so the weight of the tire being gone evens up the hitch itself which to me feels the same.

Now as to me asking what my numbers are. My camper, in our most recent trip, has met an untimely end and now I am in the market for a new one. We need a bit bigger one, for a few reasons, but not wanting to stretch ourselves over.

What I had: https://forestriverinc.com/rvs/wildwood-fsx/178BHSK/6910.

We are looking at upgrading. The weight limit was great here, but now we are looking at something like a Grand Design, Lance, Winnebago, Keystone, and possibly a Jayco and Colman.

Before our camper decided to die on us, we had several issues, so we are burnt out on Wild wood, and Forest River in general. But the weight of these other campers are a little heavier.

What we were looking at was: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2017-Grand+Design-Imagine+2800BH-5025895055.

However, if the sleeping is right, we are willing to go smaller (an Imagine 19BWE). Bunk beds are not necessary as we can have a couch if need be. But having a private bedroom is what we are moving into and would like to try and get.

But first, I want to make sure I know what my towing is able to do.

I have seen where I am good to go based on one of the spreadsheets, and another that told me I was 200 lbs over.

I had the third one that just repeated what I typed in without telling me anything.

So, I turn to you all, any help and advice, as well as wisdom on good smaller campers along the lines of the 19BWE), I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in Advanced, and please know that while I may not jump back on the thread right away, I will lurk my thread and hop on if and when I can get the time. So please do not take my absence as being rude. It is not.

Thanks again.

 

The best way to determine your weight is to scale it. But to scale it you have to buy it and load it up, so I understand your plight.

Move some of the gear from the truck in to the trailer if you are concerned about payload. Gross Combined is most important, rear axle weight rating is next (which is greater than total payload on these trucks), payload is least important in my experience. We aren’t allowed to tell you to ignore the payload rating. But I can say that these trucks don’t care if you are over a bit. IMO, proper prep and driver altertness/experience are more important than moving 100 lbs around to appease the payload mongers, especially if you are well below gross combined. I’m sure others will chime in with differing opinions.

BTW, thumbs up for trying to figure it all out. That’s more effort than many people put in to the endeavor.

 

Blenton's answer above is better but my quick and dirty answer is that the GD 2800BH seems to be too big for a Tundra and you'd be better off with a 2400BH.

 

To note, I pull a trailer almost identical to the 2800BH minus the tip out (which I wish we had, haha). The tundra has no issue with it, neither does our ‘15 sequoia. My tundra has some mild mods including air bags, e rated tires, rear trd sway bar, etc; the sequoia is bone stock including Toyota spec p276/65r18 Michelin LTX AT2 tires. I don’t feel that it is pushing either of those vehicles out of their comfort zone, even with our family and dogs in the sequoia. We do pack fairly light, though.

For comparison, one day I helped some nice old folks who were stranded on the side of the road with their rented travel trailer. It was only a 24’ trailer but they had loaded it up for several weeks of fun and adventure with their grandkids - three of which were riding with them, and another car load following in a sedan. The trailer appeared to be pretty heavy. Anyways, I had them move a few things around in the trailer for a little better balance (maybe 100 lbs with of food and clothes) then hitched it up and pulled it up in to the mountains to the campground they had reserved. I have a bench seat in front so all six of us were loaded in to the truck, too. The WD was setup for his Tahoe so it was barely engaging the spring bars when hitched to my truck but a quick drive around the block showed it to be stable and fine for my liking.

The older gentleman started to white knuckle the grab handle as we jumped on the highway and got up to speed (70 mph). Visibly anxious, I took my foot off the gas to decelerate and asked him if he was ok. He confessed that they had been doing 50-55 mph max for 300 miles because any time they went faster than that, the trailer started to sway and push their Tahoe around on the road, leading to a few scary close calls. So when we blew right past 50 mph and on to 70 he was anticipating some white knuckle trailer sway but was hesitant to say as much, figuring I would figure it out quickly. When it never swayed and pushed us around, he said he actually thought the trailer might have popped off - that’s how worried he was about it.

I asked if he was ok if we sped up to the speed limit and he agreed to give it a shot. 5 minutes later he told his wife that they were going to trade in their trusty Tahoe for a Tundra when they got home. An hour and a half and several miles of 8% grade later, we arrived at the campground and he was still gushing about how impressed he was by the trucks ability to handle the trailer. It was just another day for me, but it did make me appreciate the difference between being rated to to something and being able to tow it comfortably.

The point of that longwindedness is that you should choose what you are comfortable towing. My experience with this truck is that it was designed to tow at its rated weight comfortably, and not be on the ragged edge when doing so. The smaller trailer you mentioned is small enough to not even require a WD hitch. I would have no qualms pulling either of them; the truck is rated to do so.

 

@Cpl_Punishment has valid justification for looking at a smaller rig

Full transparency, I have a 2800BH and sometimes I ponder if it was the right choice for a combination but other times I swear it is perfect with a tundra. This supports his suggestion and everything else In about to share. BL: a 2800BH is doable, but is certainly at the limit of practical.

If you are carrying 1k, it's not going to work. Real world numbers for a 2800BH is about 900-950lbs tongue weight.

Nothing you can do will increase you payload, but you can unload that gear into your trailer to get within your number, or at the very least, extre.emly close.

Scales will give you exact numbers for your rig unloaded, with hitch. You have my TW to work with.

Good luck! Just be careful when dialing in the hitch. Anything outside of 20lbs on the nose is noticeable to me, but your experience may be different

 

Thank you all for your help so far. I am making some adjustments on my thoughts, and have narrowed down a few trailers based on the actual TW numbers as well as other experiences from what you all are sharing.

The few that I am looking for are varying in makes.

My top ones at the moment are:

Grand Design Imagine 2150RB: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2017-Grand+Design-IMAGINE+2150RB-5022547283

Imagine XLS 19RLE: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2019-Grand+Design-Imagine+XLS+19RLE-5023945205

Winnebago 2401RG: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2019-Winnebago-MINNIE+2401RG-5025803744

Winnebago 2100BG: https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2018-Winnebago+Industries+Towables-Micro+Minnie+2100BH-5025824518

There may be some Keystones, Jayco's, probably a Coleman.

But this brings my UVW down to around 5K, possibly a little more or less.

However, I am still a little nervous about buying used as I don't know how it was taken care of, and the only camper I owned was a Wildwood (purchased new in 2020). So, I guess buying new didn't help me out either.

From a weight standpoint, a double axle should be a little easier on the tow rig? I don't know because I only towed the single axle.

As for what I am comfortable towing, right out of college I drove a F-250 with the 8' bed, the extra cab (which got close to rivaling the CM), and then pulled a 26' box trailer behind that. There were some tight moments on the narrow roads of Pensacola, but I can do it. At this point I don't plan on going on narrow streets or anything of the like, but I am also a little rusty so a longer trailer will need a slight practice to make sure I am still good.

The advice you all are giving me here has really helped. And I know that campers are all based on opinions of the individual, but who do you all recommend as for a maker? Yes, I am shaky after having my camper possibly totaled from a defect.

 

It's unfortunate that you've had issues with Forest River. I'm on my second (a Rockwood GeoPro and now a Flagstaff MicroLite) and both have been exceptional in the quality department. So much so that I'd be scared to go to a different brand.

Between single axle and dual axle, I've had both. I didn't notice a huge difference in how they pull, but the single axle had a higher tongue weight, despite being less weight overall. This is not uncommon with single axle trailers. Something to think about.

 

Brand new campers likely have more issues than a used camper. The QC coming out of the factory is terrible, new owners usually have to iron all those wrinkles out. A used camper may already be sorted, just have to find one that was well cared for.

 

Thank you. Yes, we just about packed up and returned home (we were 4 hours away). It was heart breaking. This was the second time it happened. The first time we were in the camper and was able to stop it from happening. This one we had left the camper after just having hooked up, and that was it. But, we are thankful for good insurance and that is why we are looking. Our budget though is about what we are getting paid from insurance.

Good to know on the double axle. I read that somewhere that a double was easier to pull. Maybe because of the tongue weight being less?

 

Good to know. That was what I was told about new campers (especially the ones coming out of 2020 (ours was a brand new '21) so I know it was built during '20. Hence we are looking at the older ones. I know I will be doing some major testing before purchasing regardless, but just trying to be wise. I am looking back as far as '16 up to '19. That should have enough time to work out bugs.

 

My new trailer certainly pulls a bit different, but I can't say if it's solely the dual axle or not, as many other variables have changed as well. The new trailer is longer, wider, taller, and heavier, so it's obviously going to be a different towing experience. I'm still learning it as I haven't had it that long or pulled it for nearly as many miles as I pulled our GeoPro, so I may form more opinions on the matter as I pile on the miles. We have quite a few trips planned with it for this summer.

 

Please let me know how it goes on the camping with miles. This is one area I have not had the opportunity to test due to only having a single.

I think weight wise I did lower what I was looking at, and therefore I will be better in place, so already this thread has helped me out. I really appreciate the wisdom here. I know much will change for us, heavier, longer, wider. But the old camper we put well over 3k miles on it on just the first summer.

My truck is a '10 with me putting 175K on the clock two weeks ago. I have had to do some work with it. Since I owned it:

1. New brakes and rotors,
2. New brake lines.
3. New radiator with hoses
4. Transmission service (dropped and serviced, not flushed)
5 Front and rear diff's fluid changed along with transfer fluid change.
6. Body work on roof, frame, and under body from rust (next month hood will be going in). That will finish all rust that I can get to and do myself. I am using POR 15.
7. New HVAC unit (shaft snapped and I know there was another thread where they were asking about this. Mine required a full replacement).
8. Light realignments for the headlights.
9. New leaf springs to replace the ones broken.
10. Fuel injector cleaning.

But for the most part, the under body was very little rust minus parts that if they snap I will just put new ones on. The frame was my biggest concern. So far it has been very good.

Last on my list to do:

1. Hood for the last rust.
2. Replace parts as they break from rust underneath.
3. My driver seat is torn so I am thinking of just putting a seat cover on it. The cheap one I have now is ripping as well.

 

I have a 21 Outback 292URL (forest river product) and the initial QC was OK at best. Lots of flimsy trim coming off that I need to reapply. My heater has quit coming on (Probably a loose connection or failed sail switch). When installing my 2nd AC unit myself I encountered the hole that was cut for the forward vent that the new AC was going to utilize was cut by a blind kindergartener with a freehand router and a dull bit. All of the sealant applied to the camper is super sloppy, overdone and not in the right places. I've since resealed several of the roof penetration points. Also lots of unused spaces behind faux panels. Why not utilize these spaces? I've opened several of them up and they are handy.

 

I was afraid to walk on my roof, LOL. But interesting way to describe what you found. We had the usual trim pieces and the hollow door that warped because of towels. As for panels, ours was really open with very little paneling. So that is one thing I will say, the FSX used its space well. We had as much in it as another camper that was abou 8' longer.

Come to think of it, they wanted to trade, LOL!

 

Our trailer is about 5300 lbs dry and that's probably the biggest I would go with a Tundra (or any halfton). Another advantage of double axle is hopefully better stability and control in the event of a flat tire. (Not sure if that was already mentioned as I just skimmed the previous posts.)

In my opinion, 2-4 years old used is the way to go. Let somebody else deal with the initial depreciation and the new build QC issues. Find one that's been well maintained; we talked to the previous owners of our trailer and were really comfortable with their level of knowledge and the amount of work they'd done.

 

Thank you. No one has mentioned that advice yet directly but that makes sense with the distribution of the weight to two axles instead of one. I was wondering, and thankfully I never had to find out, how to handle if a tire blew on a single axle.

Really hoping for a double this time around. But the 2-4 year is kind of what I am looking for (minus '20's and '21's).

 

I do like the redundancy offered by the dual axle setup, for sure.

My trailer is about 5600 lbs dry and I concur that I would not feel comfortable towing anything bigger with the Tundra. It's at the max of the sweet spot. The GeoPro, at about 3600 lbs dry was super easy.

 

Corrected your statement to reflect the truth for owners of 2-4 year old rigs they bought new. Given the market trends, your original statement would apply to anyone buying new today.

 

We bought our trailer a year ago for $30k which is probably what it cost new but a new one at that time would have cost us $60k.

 

Wow....this is my biggest fear of having major issues with my trailer. Pat on the back for you doing your own research. I did my own research for almost two years before retiring and buying my first RV. My uncle would always give me some advice after towing for 20+ years everything from a pop up to a 5th wheel trailer. He would tell me with a half ton, he would advise not to tow anything over 26' and 6000 lbs or less. We pulled the trigger on a new unit only because of the deal we received. My trailer is 5840 at about 90% loaded. This is all of the things we need with no water in the tanks. I figure with seasonal add ons, I am looking at 6k loaded. I am sitting at 28.6' from tip to stern.

Hang on.....you may be starting to see some good deals on RVs. The economy may help propel the discounts that you may see. Hopefully, you can get a great deal!

Hope that you find the perfect RV that works for you. Safe travel.

 

Thank you for the kind words.

This site has helped a lot on weights and measuring so any knowledge I have in this is due to the experience and expertise here.

 

For weight, I saw above that a 2600BH was recommended as being better.

My question should be, should I look for something around 5500 lbs dry, including what I carry, or 5500lbs empty and then add on. What I put in the camper is roughly 200lbs of stuff. So I know I could probably transition some stuff from the truck bed to the camper, but I want to make sure that what I do doesn't destroy the camper.

This would make a difference due to the weight. With the 2600BH recommended, I found this. https://columbus.craigslist.org/rvd/d/galena-2017-grand-design-imagine-travel/7607970574.html

This is 200lbs over what was recommended, and then I add another 200. However, it has everything we need.

I am just trying to keep the weight down to work with the agreement with family that I don't start over 5500. But again, this has everything, and is close to my price point.

Perhaps I am overthinking this.

As KingsAustin said, maybe I will be able to get a better deal soon. Hoping so.

I am drawn to the Grand Design because of the reviews that I have seen and it is hard to drop that. Plus it looks good as well. If you own one, are they as good as many reviewers (aka: full timers) say it is?

 

I yank on of these around with my 2021 Tundra with no problem at all. As long as the truck isn't struggling then I don't care what the numbers are or recommended.

https://www.jdpower.com/rvs/2018/rockwood-by-forest-river/m-2706ws/6577569/specs

In fact I know of a lady pulling a huge 5th wheel horse trailer with 4-6 horses in it daily. She blows past the other smaller trailers. I'm probably guessing she isn't concerned about the numbers either as she is longer and well more weight that what I have.

 

I think 5500 lbs empty is at the top end of where you should be but still ok if you're careful how much stuff you bring.

 

Your are overthinking it. But this is both a major purchase, and a major safety concern that involves your family. So kudos for taking the time to make a good decision. A few hundred pounds one way or the other won’t matter a lot as you are well under your max towing and should be able to stay under your payload with a 5500# or so trailer.

 

I tow a 2250rk travel trailer by Grand Design with a 19 crewmax. Small lift,air bags, add a leaf,rear sway bar,Hinsley hitch set up. I am over on my payload,but good on all other numbers and it tows well but it is heavy at 13900 gcvw. Nothing but me and wife 25lb dog and a full tank in the truck,bed has an empty bedslide in it..could gain some weight back if I removed it..everything else is in the camper . Run with a 750lb tongue weight and it tows fine just wished I had more payload.

 

I strongly believe that deals will be available. The camping season is starting to kick off plus the economy will gas light the deals especially on 2021-2022 models. I tow a Grand Design and I was really worried about the sticker dry weight at 5500+ lbs. When I towed it home from the dealer, I immediately took it to a Cat Scale near my home. My trailer still had about 1/3 fresh water and a bit of gray water and a couple of minor upgrades from the PDI. To my surprise, I came in at 5300 and some change in weight. I called GD and the best information I could get from them on the sticker weight was that they use an 'average' weight since they weight each wheel and axle on the way out after the GD manufacture walk through. SO, as most folks on here advise....weigh it. It will cost you some change, but I believe it is worth your time. PLUS, you will have documentation just in case something happens especially if it comes in lower like in my case. Most accident investigations will include a picture of your factory sticker as part of the case. I have had my unit for about 30 days and I have three weight receipts.....I am still trying to dial in my WDH.

Again, bravo on the research and the best of luck on finding your new unit.

 

Thank you, and I see the point. I guess I am trying to be careful due to the fact that my truck is a 2010 with 175K on it and I know that I cannot replace it if it blows. I am just trying to baby it a little in regards to this kind of work. It by no means is a pavement princess as I have seen used around here. I do take it into dirt and back roads, but just not rock crawling.

We try not to bring too much. My usual bed load is: A tool box with a mechanics tool box, shovel, ax, ratchet straps, gloves, small repair stuff, etc. (this helps make up for the lack of storage inside the cab). I carry an extra propane tank, four chairs, five cement blocks (to have the stabilizing braces go down on and I found I get sturdier with those than the little lego blocks that I own). Fishing poles and tackle boxes, a camper rug. My family and I, and some books and what not that we use while driving in the cab. The rest of everything goes into the camper (food, suitcases, maybe fishing poles if we choose, games, books, etc.) When we get to the campsite, then we use the water. So we do not travel with full tanks at all. We may put a partial tank in case someone needs to stop and use the bathroom, but that is it.

I figured I was overthinking this . But I guess between the two good points (safety with family, and the amount of money), I want to make sure I know what I am doing. Never pulled a TT this heavy and this would be only our 2nd one, so I am cautious as I am going forward. I figured a few hundred pounds is not much to worry about but again, I tend to over analyze. I am not allowed to watch kids shows with my children because I tell them why it won't work. That makes for interesting discussions, LOL!

You are braver than I would be! I guess if it works, great. Not sure I would trust my truck, myself, or both! I agree though, I do wish I had more payload. However, when I get firewood (my truck is used to work as well) I have it split and stacked and will fill the entire bed up to the bed rail itself. If I don't split, then I stack it and it will go over the bed a little. So I know I put a lot of weight but that is for "short" distances, short being 20 miles at some points.

Thank you for your comments and encouragement. I did see a thought about going through the CAT scale and I may do that to make sure I am under GCVW. But will do that when I go out with the new camper.

I am going to start another thread in the camper section to get some advice on inspecting a used camper to make sure I hit key things and know what to look for but I wanted to give an update here first.


I did hear back from the insurance company yesterday. They are going to do a total loss on the camper. I am waiting to find out the payout but if it is the numbers I was told, I will be around that $20K. This makes me whole and now I have to go back to searching for a camper.

I sat down and started to look at floor plans and combined with our wants for the family, and the conversation here we have settled on at least two floor plans and models we like the best. They are:

1. Grand Design Imagine XLS 23 BHE: https://www.granddesignrv.com/travel-trailers/imagine-xls/23bhe

or

2. Keystone Bullet Crossfire 2290BH: https://www.keystonerv.com/product/bullet-crossfire/comfort-travel-trailers/floorplans/2290BH

I am sure that perhaps there are others that will meet our needs, but these two seem to jump out with the best checks on our wish list:

1. A slide out.
2. Under or right at 5500 UVW
3. Bunks
4. Private bedroom (we had a Murphy Bed before).
5. A sofa and a table
6. Storage space.
7. Fiberglass shell.

These two have everything but the sofa.

There are a couple of these near where I live so I will be planning on going to check them out. Of course, the GD will need some negotiating.

I was asked to ask one more question: hills and mountains. If you have a camper that weighs about this much, how does your truck handle going up grades (the biggest we have had to deal with was 9%). There was expressed concern about blowing an engine trying to get up a hill. This comes from the last experience. We had the Wildwood FSX, was told my 1st Gen Tundra (with the 3400 motor) could pull it. It could and did. As long as it was on even ground. Going up a 9%, and I had it floored and was barely doing 30 MPG. Hence I went to a bigger truck (the 5.7). Any comments or thoughts on this? I know it will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Like everything else, it'll depend on the hills. That said, these trucks don't mind revving. They make peak numbers around 3700rpm. With that said, I've found, even towing heavier than your intending to, that 2400-3000 in S4 is good for climbing most hills. Occasionally I need to hit 3rd, but that's not ideal. Be warned, everything extra over stock is going to impact your experience, so heavier tires, lift, etc will be a significant variable

 

Thank you for the feed back. My truck is pretty well stock as it sits. I bought used, and it has Black Rhino alloy wheels, dual exhaust, and custom head and tail lights. No lift, no bigger tires, no special front end guards. The only real, non stock thing I have on it is my tool box.

The truck was a good little truck. But I needed bigger space for the kids in the back, as well as a bigger engine because we didn't want to be under powered again. The truck I used to own was a 2004 DC and it is still in the area. The person that bought it loves it (it was only a 4x2 anyway). So I am glad to hear it is still running. For little erends, I do miss it, but my CM is nice and as one poster said here, if you find yourself walking away from your truck and turning around to just see it, you know you found your truck. Well, yeah...guilty. I just love my CM.

ETA: I also do not have any spare tire so that extra hundred lbs is now used elsewhere. Since I am not going too far off the beaten path, I know I can get cell service and help as needed. This was not done by me, but whoever owned this last allowed the spare tire holder to rust completely out and they just threw the spare into the bed. I took it out because I needed bed space (the shorter bed does not give me a lot of wiggle room for sure).