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Drop bracket mid travel

Discussion in 'Suspension' started by Basemodel07, Sep 4, 2018.

  1. Sep 4, 2018 at 9:28 PM
    #1
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    Hello all. This is my first post so feel free to point me in the right direction if I have messed it up.

    That being said, I have been looking for a couple months now and have found only one person even mention a drop bracket mid travel style build. (I cannot remember his name but truck name was Pluto, 40s crewmax I believe and he actually uses it offroad) Why is no one doing this? I feel like the 3 inch lift or so from a mid travel isn't enough to do all types of off roading. I feel like a 4.5 inch mid travel on 35s or 37s would be ideal.

    Why doesn't anyone cut the crossmember use a kit (I've been looking at the bds 4.5 w/o coilover) then use an aftermarket upper control arm with some custom length coilovers? Is it not going to have the same travel as a mid travel build? Or am I missing something obvious that would render this setup useless?
     
  2. Sep 4, 2018 at 9:36 PM
    #2
    831Tun

    831Tun IMA BasTRD

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    Spvrtan , is the owner of Pluto.
     
  3. Sep 4, 2018 at 10:40 PM
    #3
    zcarpenter92

    zcarpenter92 Yotas, Coronas and 'Merica

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  4. Sep 5, 2018 at 2:43 AM
    #4
    Spvrtan

    Spvrtan Mod In Training | MIT

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    No one else does it because they get scared off by the masses that are afraid to think differently. Or it's the fact some will say long-travel is the only way to go because they either think they're the next BJ Baldwin or they don't want to admit they themselves spent $10k on a long-travel setup that they're not using to the fullest because the trails they do offroad could easily be accomplished with a mid-travel setup and proper driving skill. I'm not knocking on long-travel itself because it has its purposes and clear benefits such as if you're goal is to go really fast and safely so while not going in a straight line. Bracket lifts are for those that -- in my opinion -- want a cross-functional build but with an emphasis on doing more Jeep-style trails.

    With a proper bracket lift setup, the only thing you potentially lose vs. a standard mid-travel setup is center-of-gravity (ie. it goes higher technically but it really doesn't matter unless you're doing wild turns around corners like you're a racecar). You don't have any less travel than a standard mid-travel setup; you could argue you might even gain more travel due to increased up-travel clearance -- you'll have to tinker with the bump stop location.

    You gain: increased approach angle, increased departure angle, increased breakover angle, and increased tire clearance for larger tires.

    Another misconception is people think a bracket lift doesn't give you more clearance than a standard mid-travel setup. Those people are half-wrong. You get the above clearances but they're usually referencing clearance at the axles, which you don't gain with any lift itself. You gain axle clearances by going to larger tires. If you're going to compare 35" tires on a MT setup s 35" tires on a bracket setup, yes, you didn't gain more clearance at the axles. However, a bracket lift, like I mentioned, allows you to run larger tires easier, which in return gets you those axle clearances that a MT setup can't get as easily or at all.
     
  5. Sep 5, 2018 at 2:47 AM
    #5
    Spvrtan

    Spvrtan Mod In Training | MIT

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    Also worth mentioning.. I've been on 37s since the truck rolled over 2k miles. I upgraded to 40s around 50k miles and now I'm at 75k miles. I haven't blown my steering rack yet nor have I broken any axles. The worst damage I ever got was bending the bracket lift spindle because I ran into a large rock around a blind corner in the desert going a little too fast for my eyes to keep up with visibility.
     
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  6. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:11 AM
    #6
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    Yea I dont have the money for long travel, plus long travel would literally cost more than my truck is worth lol. I dont really have the places to go fast here anyway. Plus being from the rock crawling back ground, (85 toyota pickup locked front and rear 35s) I realize that a mid travel with 37s isnt ideal for general offroading/ crawling because it's so low you'll be dragging underside and bumpers everywhere. I'm still leaning that 6 inch drop bracket might be too high for me. So 4.5 might be the spot.

    As far as suspension travel I have found zero reviews of drop brackets and how the articulation is improved or not. My experience with IFS is limited. But you are saying drop bracket is comparable to a mid travel?

    Also are you locked front or rear? And have you re geared to 488s?
     
  7. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:25 AM
    #7
    zackbremer

    zackbremer New Member

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    unless youre doing really techinical stuff like spvrtn, where approach angles and under carriage clearance will matter at the most extreme instances you wont see any benefit. Most people who do drop brackets dont upgrade to nice coilovers and UCA so the ride, performance and travel isnt increased at all. CO and UCA determine travel, not the amount of lift you have.

    so a solid MT set up(CO/UCA) will only sit an inch'ish lower then a 4.5 bracket kit, will have almost 3inches more travel, have better geometry and ride a lot better.

    now adding those same CO/UCA to a 4.5 kit would theoretically add the same benefit in ride, but the coilover isnt going to be able to droop out more to compensate for the added lift of the bracket(since the UCA limits your travel)...the only advantage i could see the additional 1-2inches of clearance..and that could be accomplished with high clearance bumpers and keeo your center of gravity lower.

    so is that 800-1200 worth an 1-2in of clearance you could gain with bumpers, thats your call. also geography plays a big roll...being in the open desert there is no replacement for speed and travel..its fun and its practical

    now if i was in the back woods doing more rutted out jeep trails, or really technical rock climbing then yah long travel doesnt make as much sense and a bracket may be more beneficial.

    like sprvtrn said the bracket allows you to run bigger tires...so unless youre going to run 40s what the point of a bracket and 35s? i have 2.5in of lift and fit 37s. At the end of the day its about dollars and fun, either way youll have a good time.
     
  8. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:32 AM
    #8
    zackbremer

    zackbremer New Member

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    https://www.instagram.com/p/BmD_2Uon0fG/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

    here's a heard of tundras doing CK a local trail in AZ..we had 33's to 37s, bracket lifts, MT, spacers, long travel....guess what everyone finished the trail in a timely manner, everyone got over every obstacle..everyone had fun..for 85% of wheeling your set up isnt going to matter..its that rare 15% that you should target your build for..is that 15% going to be 40lo crawling over rocks ala spvrtn? then a bracket and 40s will benefit you, is it going to be logging road or whooped out desert for miles..then long travel will really set you apart

    Also looks at the best offroad vehicles....trophy truck...low big tires big travel....king of hammers trucks solid axle ,big tires big travel. not a bracket in sight. thats not to say we are going to use our trucks to that extreme but the engineering and designing homework has already been done..why reinvent the wheel
     
  9. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:39 AM
    #9
    14burrito

    14burrito New Member

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    3" on 35s has the same if not more ground clearance than 6" on 35s FWIW
     
  10. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:42 AM
    #10
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    But approach and departure angles are better on a 6 inch also frame height. But yes same ground clearance at the axle. But still axle ground clearance is not everything. Especially the way the rear shock mounts on the axle are designed

    I have a 3/1 leveling kit currently just because when I bought the leveling kit I told myself I wouldn't offroad in this truck... If a mid travel 3 inch lift and a leveling kit 3 inch lift (I realize the performance is different) net the same amount of lift height then I just think it's too low to be a great all around offroad vehicle. For myself going fast in the desert is not for me I live In Kansas and Arkansas where there is no sand. More technical rock crawling, I just dont know if the tundra ifs is up to the task of serious rock crawling with a locker in the front end or not.

    My goal would be to wheel with Rubicon jeeps on 35-40 inch tires
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  11. Sep 5, 2018 at 7:59 AM
    #11
    dcsleeper408

    dcsleeper408 BASTRDS

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    Forget bracket, forget LT, and just SAS it!
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  12. Sep 5, 2018 at 8:19 AM
    #12
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    I had a dana 60 front laying around a couple months back. But as it's my daily driver and there is zero support for that I couldnt do it. Also the limits of the 9 inch front IFS I dont think have been tested too much. But sas has crossed my mind
     
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  13. Sep 5, 2018 at 8:29 AM
    #13
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    There is so much misinformation in this post I don't even know where to begin.

    This number 1 biggest problem with bracket lifts is the higher center of gravity. This negatively affects how your vehicle behaves in turns and it also negatively affects how it behaves on technical and off camber trails. you will also get worse MPG on the hwy. every liitle bit matte in the MPG department. The lower your center of gravity the better. If you want an example, just study how ultra4 rigs are built. Taller trucks will tilt more on the rocks and more likely to tip. there are lots of examples of rolled trucks all over instagram. Even well built jeep on 50" tires have minimal suspension lift. They have just enough to clear the tires if they're built properly.

    You don't need a bracket lift to fit big tires. You can fit 40s on a stock truck if you alter the inner and outer fenders and body mount. I run 37s with full long travel and I only had to lightly modify the inner fenders. I didn't even have to touch the body mount.

    Bracket lifts increase the leverage on the spindle and most of the kits use mild steel. This makes the spindle very weak and extremely heavy. Having lots of unsprung weight negatively affects the suspension performance.

    You don't need a bracket lift to increase approach/departure angle, you just need high clearance bumpers. You get increased breakover angle, thats true. But not very much compared to a MT or LT setup. The difference is minimal.

    Now if we're going to compare a bracket lift to a LT setup, the LT setup will blow it out the door in every way except cost. Yes, LT is expensive. About $22k for full front and rear with bypasses bumps and supporting mods. But you will have a proper setup. You will be able to cover the same amount of distance off road in half the time. You will can do it safely and in comfort. You will have a low center of gravity which will not only help you out in corners, but it will also help you out on technical trails and off camber slopes. You will have VASTLY increased articulation. It will be next to impossible to lift a wheel in the air. Which means you will also have mega grip on technical trails. The increased articulation plus massive amount of shock dampening means that on your truck will be much more stable on the rocks. Less bouncing and better controlled movement.

    I have full LT suspension with 37" tires. I have a 4.5" lift as compared to stock, plus the tires means I have a total of 6" lift over stock. I still get 12 MPG on the hwy. I can do 65 mph over 3' high whoops. I can clear the John Bull Gatekeeper. I can get to camp 3 times faster than a bracket lift setup and I won't even spill my beer doing it. If you want pictures and vidies, check my build thread in my signature.

    Bracket lifts are for guys who don't know how to properly build a truck. If you have a low budget, keep it stock and add good 35" tires. If you have $5k or $6k, do a proper MT setup with 35" tires. This get through 90% of the trails you will ever encounter. I wheel with plenty of MT trucks and unless you are gonna hit the Rubicon you will never need more. If you have more money, then go full LT. At that point you will a well rounded, high performance truck that can basically take you anywhere in comfort; and it will do it fast.

    Thats the bast way to put it. No such thing as a bracket lift on high performance trucks. For good reason.
     
  14. Sep 5, 2018 at 8:34 AM
    #14
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    You will never be able to go everywhere a rubicon jeep on 35-40 will be able to go. The tundra is simply too big. However, if you do a proper MT setup and 37s (and skids and sliders), you can do 90% of what they can do
     
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  15. Sep 5, 2018 at 8:55 AM
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    Atomic City Tundra

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    Just my 2 cents, but if you are looking for a technical offroad type rig, then you bought the wrong one. As oside mentioned above, the Tundra is just too big. I have never understood building a rock crawler type rig out of a long truck. Sure, I guess you can build it up to do "most" of what a proper rock crawler can do - but if you are going to put money into building one, why not just build one that will do "everything" that the others can do?
     
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  16. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:02 AM
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    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    At the very most this is a bracket lift vs mid travel. If you have the money for long travel, then spend it. I cannot, I will be lucky to build a mid travel/ drop bracket over the next year or two.

    Also on the increase of approach/ departure angles by means of different bumpers. If you have a bracket lift and different bumpers you would have better than mid travel and different bumpers..

    The super low big tire build isnt the epitome of off-roading either. It's not a bad platform either I'm not hating on it. Just saying there are other ways. End of the day I cannot even think of doing a long travel
     
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  17. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:02 AM
    #17
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    ^^ This right here

    So many people forget to keep the modifications appropriate to the vehicle. We have a big heavy long wheelbase truck. Its the perfect setup for back country exploration and camping. If you beef up the suspension and tires, then you will have a great truck for driving on trails and carrying camping gear.

    If you don't need to carry gear, then you have a huge truck that gets terrible mpgs and you'll be driving around with an empty bed.

    If you want to crush John Bull and the Rubicon with a bunch of jeeps... then you should have bought a jeep.

    If you want a badass desert prerunner, then the long wheelbase and body on frame and 5.7L motor will really help you out with that kind of build.
     
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  18. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:03 AM
    #18
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    No. You're wrong. A MT setup with high clearance bumpers will perform better in all scenarios than a bracket lift. whatever tiny inch you gain in breakover angle won't matter on the trail
     
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  19. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:04 AM
    #19
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    My truck is wide, but at a wheelbase of 128 inches I dont know if it's too long really. What platform would you start with? A jeep?
     
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  20. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:06 AM
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    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    Didn't say it would perform better I'm comparing that a mid travel with bumpers and a bracket with the same bumpers. The bracket has better approach and departure angles because it is already higher than the other
     
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  21. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:07 AM
    #21
    Atomic City Tundra

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    Sure. Or something like this:

    bronc.jpg

    92 inch wheelbase. My old Bronco.
     
  22. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:07 AM
    #22
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    you can't make that comparison. Take the money you would spend on the bracket lift and put them into bumpers. You'll have a better truck
     
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  23. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:09 AM
    #23
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    Well hell that thing right there would cost me 25k or more to build these days Broncos are too expensive. I wheel a toyota pickup at 110 inches and if it were on 37s and not 35s it would be just about right but that's also a serious crawler not exactly spending a lot of time on the street anymore
     
  24. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:11 AM
    #24
    Atomic City Tundra

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    They are expensive, but that wasn't my point. My point is, a technical trail rig shouldn't have a 128" wheelbase. Personally, I would try to stay under 100, but that is just me. There are several options that you could get that fit the bill for a lot less than an Early Bronco.

    I would say just spend the money on a good MT setup. It will do a lot for you. My Tundra does great with the setup I put on it. That said, I wouldn't think of doing any real hardcore crawling with it. It just isn't the right vehicle for that application IMO. Or, if you really want to be able to go crawl with the Jeeps - then get something like a Jeep and ditch the Tundra.
     
  25. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:28 AM
    #25
    Basemodel07

    Basemodel07 [OP] New Member

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    Sadly I do love toyotas that in itself is not sad but the fact that I dont have a solid axle truck option sucks. Anyway a new jeep 4 door has a wheelbase of almost 115 inches. I could in the distant future adjust my wheelbase. I could also sell out and get a jeep. Boo just like everyone else.

    What does the jeep have over the tundra. Mine in particular, shorter wheelbase by a foot and an inch or two. Also a solid front axle that I believe is a dana 44 in the Rubicon. With a ring gear of slightly smaller size than the tundra. Also has me beat in aftermarket support. But at the end of the day, the tundras ifs I don't think has been tested in the rock crawling scenes with lockers front and rear and really pushing the limits off road. I havent seen limits where the shafts start breaking or the ring and pinion go out. But also I dont see anyone with a front locker
     
  26. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:37 AM
    #26
    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    These are just some of the recent technical trails I've done. The Tundra is very capable if you have the right armor and suspension. But it has its limits.

    https://youtu.be/0hJDOEnVPow

    https://youtu.be/Zn4re-0ssJA

    https://youtu.be/3SaK3Dab9Zs

    https://youtu.be/HC4aQZwdT9Y

    https://youtu.be/uDWp2hQTKgw

    https://youtu.be/2FKo6Vb_Vog

    https://youtu.be/E4Oubkv8aEg
     
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  27. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:44 AM
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    ARamirez73

    ARamirez73 JUST A HOBO RIDIN' THEM RAILS TO ANYWHERE

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  28. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:45 AM
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    osidepunker

    osidepunker OsidePunker

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    Thanks man! I have a bunch of GOFAST video too LOL
     
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  29. Sep 5, 2018 at 9:58 AM
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    porkitt

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    DAP Tune ESP Storage (next) Fuel Vapor ABS Guards AVS Vent Visor FRAC Harness 50 Cal/Antenna X BFG KO2 HID Extra Light Bar RG10 Running Boards BAK Industries Revolver X2 Rear Sway Bar Oh Shit Handles Pop and Lock LED Internal and Reverse Lights LED Footwell lights Tuffy Storage Console organizers Viper Alarm and Remote Start
  30. Sep 5, 2018 at 10:11 AM
    #30
    831Tun

    831Tun IMA BasTRD

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Member:
    #3549
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    First Name:
    Warren
    Santa Cruz
    Vehicle:
    '16 CM limited
    ADS C/O w/clickers, ADS bypass rear, Icon UCAs, Toytech shackles, chrome delete, Pro grille, TRD dual exhaust dumped, de-badged, black LED tail lights. BHLM w/projectors, 295 70 18 Cooper STT pro on stock rims w/1.25" Spider Tracks. N_Fab bumper w/Baja Design fogs and ditch lights, 13" antenna x, RCI skid, All Pro sliders, ARB compressor
    Things is, in my experience, photos don't tell the truth. The truth is the obstacles are much bigger, gnarlier and more difficult than the photos would have you believe. :thumbsup:
     
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