Brake Shudder .... A Toyota Curse?

My opinion is that many folks experience pad deposits on their rotors and not warped rotors. When you come to a stop, the rotor and pad build heat quickly, but also bleed heat quickly when stopped. This creates a hotspot on the rotor where the pads are still in contact and can deposit rotor material on to the rotor. Idk have made it a habit in just about every car I’ve owned to creep forward a foot or tow after coming to a complete stop in order to mitigate the deposits left by the hotspot on rotor. It has worked well for me.

FWIW, my factory rotors lasted 140k miles with a fair amount of towing and hauling. It is rarely empty. Even at 140k, they didn’t shake or shimmy, but I replaced them instead of having them turned just out of practice rather than really needing to. All four rotors lasted that long.

I DID however experience a bad shimmy from the front brakes after changing the brakes at 140k. Within a few thousand miles, they shook violently. I used factory rotors and TRD pads. Thinking I was too aggressive with the TRD pads or I somehow messed up the install (I do like the better initial bite than standard OE pads) I purchased another set of OE pads and rotors to swap out. Of course, I started the project on Saturday night at 8 PM and discovered that the tire jockey ran down all the lugs to OVER 450 LBS FEET!! I had them rotated just after the 140k brake swap and started developing the shimmy shortly thereafter. All of the lugs had mushroomed; some wouldn’t even fit a 23mm socket (should be a 22mm socket). For the few lugs that I could get purchase on, my m12 stubby wouldn’t break them, my m18 mid torque did nothing at all, and my m18 high torque took several whacks to get them going. I still had to chisel probably half of them out. I was ticked and the shop was closed until Monday but I needed to drive it Monday morning so I plodded on.

I have not experienced a brake shimmy since and my truck has been riding around close to max payload pretty much since then.

Just my 2 cents.

 

After fighting warped rotors on many different vehicles I made two changes that have helped. Like @blenton I creep forward a few times after a hard stop. The second is I stopped driving through carwashes when the brakes are hot. I vacuum cab out first to give them time to cool or go after stopping at a grocery store that is near the wash. These changes have almost eliminated all warp problems.

 

Chalk up another one here on the brake/rotor issue. So frustrating.

 

I had my 2016 Tundra rotors turned twice at 115,000 never has a shudder. Another vehicle, got shudder after a couple thousand miles, they replaced the rotors never had the issue again.
This along with the comments here, this leads me to believe not all rotors are created equally. If I get a shudder early on, I would have them replace the front rotors.

I did a lot of mountain driving last week, lots of long hard braking, no shudder, think I have a couple of winners on my 2023 as there is no shudder.
I did use Tow Haul to relieve some braking stress.

 

My Tacoma had same issue. Hoping my Tundra wont but seems like it will.

 

I’ve found it to be worn pads. When they get at about 50% or less I think they overheat and get hard. My Tacoma has 109K mi. on its factory front rotors. (still in spec) The pads started shuttering at about 70K mi. coming down the mountains unloaded or with a 4000# trailer. Changed pads, all good since then.

 

Holy crap. I’d worry about the studs…

 

I was pretty paranoid about them for a while and was pretty sure I was going to pressing them out after I figured out what was going on. I gave each one an inspection and threaded a standard nut on each one without the wheel to check for thread damage or possible necking. Luckily, they all checked out fine and the nut spun smoothly enough.

After thinking about for a bit, the steel wheel torque spec is over 200 lb ft even though the aluminum wheel torque spec is around 100 lb ft. I have aluminum wheels. If indeed they were over 400 lb ft (my torque wrenches max out at 250 lb ft and my weight on an 18 “ breaker with a small cheater bar wouldn’t budge them; neither would the mid torque m18 impact, so I’m pretty sure that’s fairly accurate) then it’s only twice the torque spec for the steel wheels. I’m fairly certain the Factor of Safety is high than 2 on lug nuts. It’s been 50k miles and I haven’t had an issue. Knock on wood.. But I am now a twerp about torquing the lugs properly. I ask the [different] tire shop for the torque spec every time I get the tires rotated - both the person working the counter when I check in for the service and the guys in the bay as I’m walking to my truck to leave.

 

I experienced the downhill braking shudder on Rabbit Ears pass in Colorado a few days ago. It was pretty violent. No load in the truck. I hadn’t stopped in 2 hours, so it definitely wasn’t deposits. My 2023 only has 5K miles on it.

Needless to say, I’m pretty disappointed. My 2008 and 2015 Tundras never had any brake issues.

Looks like I get to schedule my first warranty service appointment. Yippie.

 

I toasted my brakes using the ACC (Adaptive Cruise Control). It uses the brakes too much. My brakes got so hot it caused my TRD center caps paint to chip and peel off.

 

Serious ? ..also does the brake lights show when acc is engaging brakes?

 

I'm not sure if they show or not. It happened on a 2 hour trip on flat roads, it was very hot this summer so that didn't help. I used the acc for maybe a hour of that trip

 

I was using the ACC too. I got stuck behind a slow moving truck, so the ACC was constantly on and off the brakes. Temps were in the 30s, so that didn’t contribute to the shudder.

It really blows, because ACC was one of my favorite features of my new truck. I guess I’ll have to manually downshift and engine brake to spare the shitty brakes in similar situations. So disappointing….

Matt

 

On my 2019 the brake lights do light up when the ACC activates the brakes. I know this because I saw them reflected in the trailer I was towing.

 

Did you get any resolve to this issue? Did the dealership warranty the problem? If so, what did they do, and did it fix the problem?

I plan to schedule a warranty appointment for my brake shudder, but I fear they'll claim they can't reproduce the problem. It only shudders upon long downhill moderate braking at highway speeds. It's definitely heat related since it goes away as soon as the brakes cool down. I often tow a trailer or boat in the mountains, and this brake shuddering is unacceptable, and potentially dangerous.

It's really taken the joy out of owning a Gen 3 for me.

Matt

 

They replaced my center caps, but said brakes feel "normal" and if they got worse they would address it.

 

Thanks for the response. I expect to get the same bogus answer from my dealership.

When I bought my 2008 Tundra, I recall the "best-in-class" brakes were a big selling point. They even had a special brake display set up in the showroom. And they lived up to their billing. I only had to change the rear pads and rotors once in 140K miles on that truck. The fronts were never changed and still had some life when I traded it in.

Obviously Toyota decided to "value engineer" the brakes since then.

 

So to warp a cast iron brake rotor is extremely difficult. What happens is that cast iron rotors do not heat up uniformly, this causes hot spots on the rotor. When braking brake pad material stays on the rotor, these hot spots attack more brake pad material. Over time this builds up and causes excessive runout(warped rotor) which causes the pulsation. It only takes .0025" of runout to cause a pulsation on a modern vehicle.

So when coming to a stop after long hard braking and then creeping forward can help, like was suggested above.

At my shop we do not turn rotors(have not for years) as it is just a receipt for warping them again very soon and having to do the brake job all over again. We use Akebono pads and rotors and love them on the Tundra's

 

I've owned a lot of vehicles and traveled the same mountain passes all my life, and I've never had brake shuddering problems with only 5K miles on a vehicle. Unless my truck has a unique problem, Toyota has downgraded the brakes in the Gen3 trucks, which is extremely disappointing.

Even worse is, I know the dealership won't do a damn thing about it because the shuddering isn't reproducible under normal driving conditions. It only happens under moderate/heavy breaking at highway speeds on long downhill stretches.

Thanks for the tip on the Akebono pads and rotors. I've made a note to request those when I have a brake job done.

Matt

 

There are 2 main(and many small) reasons people get return on brake pulsations. 1st, is that a proper brake repair was not performed. They machined vs replace the rotors. Machining a brake rotor is just a receipt for a return of the pulsation! Next is not replacing the brake caliper bridge hardware that attach to the caliper bridge or in the case of Tundras is replacing the slide pins. This causes the brake pad to chatter across its slide and not slide across. The 2nd is not bedding in the pads properly. I hate to say this as most technician do not know to do this. Every new technician we hire is trained(and had to be, even master techs) on how to bed in brake pads properly. I would bet that most dealer technicians are not trained on how to perform a proper brake repair!!! This lead into what I listed above of an uneven amount of brake pad material built up on the rotor and over time causes excessive runout(brake pulsation). I hope this helps

Even when we do this we we still get a 4% warranty rate on our pads and rotors service!!!

 

I reuse the slide pines - they just get cleaned and lubed before install.

 

The only problem with all that is no one has touched my brakes except for the factory personnel who installed them. The truck only has 6K miles on it and I drive it very conservatively. So, there's obviously a defect, or the brake specs simply aren't on-par with previous Gens.

A common theme appears to be the shudder is a result of the adaptive cruise control's overly aggressive braking when following a vehicle that is going slower than the ACC is set. In my case, I was following a slow moving truck down a winding mountain pass. Every time we'd go around a sharp corner, the ACC would lose detection of the truck in front of me, and it would attempt to accelerate up to the set speed. When the road straighten out, the ACC would detect the slower truck and brake aggressively to reestablish a safe distance behind.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have been using ACC in that scenario. Lesson learned.

 

I dont use ACC and still pulsating brakes.

 

If brakes on a brand new truck are not bed in properly it can cause a pulsation. You are assuming that the dealership employee(probably not a true technician) doing your Pre Delivery Inspection(PDI) has been trained in how to and is actually bedding in you brake pads properly!!!

 

Exactly how does a dealership employee "bed the brakes" on a PDI?

As far as I know, they took off any shipping protective coverings, cleaned the truck up, and handed me the FOB.

Matt

 

When I worked at the Toyota dealer we were required to drive the vehicle, I can't remember how far but it was a couple miles. The dealer only had technicians due the PDI when the shop porter could not get it done before the vehicle was sold.

 

Driver habits cause pulsation, period. Riding them downhill vs downshifting. Or holding foot firm at stop when brakes are hot. Use only enough pressure to maintain stop. "Braking" for no good reason as a nervous habit. Truth

 

Driving habit is only part of the reason brake develop pulsation. If the vehicle returns for further pulsation it is highly likely that an improper brake service was performed!!! My point of view comes form the education of seminars, periodicals and talking to brake engineers to make sure that we perform the best possible brake job for my customers. I have been running a shop for over 25 years

 

That didn't really answer my question. You said a dealership employee is responsible for "bedding the brakes" as part of the PDI. Exactly how do they do that if they only drive the vehicle for a few miles? If "bedding the brakes" is a real thing, then why have I never heard of it when I've replaced dozens of pads and rotors on previous vehicles without having shuddering problems?

I don't buy the "driver's habit" theory. I never had to downshift and engine brake in my 2008 and 2015 Tundras to prevent the brakes from shuddering. My theory is Toyota chose to value engineer the Gen 3 brakes by making them less heavy duty than previous Tundra brakes.

I guess the worst case scenario is I will have to put higher quality aftermarket pads and rotors on, but that really shouldn't be necessary.

Matt

 

Matt, as to why you have never heard of bedding in brakes I can't say. As to what dealership are suppose to do and actually do is a completely different story. I am also coming across from a professional auto shop and well educated technicians point of view through research and education. We do this to make sure that our clients get the most value for what they pay for!!!