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Anyone running the stage1 blower kit from harrop?

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by Davetheplumber321, Mar 18, 2021.

  1. Sep 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM
    #301
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    For starters, I bet you have knock, pulling a lot of timing and your environmentals and a/f ratios are off. None are solved with a dyno if you cannot tune for it.

    Do you ever feel like the truck doesn't always perform the same? Sometimes it feel sluggish?

    Roots produce higher temps, requires more HP to drive and less airflow. I own both types on a number of different vehicles and prefer twin screws.
     
  2. Sep 30, 2021 at 1:05 PM
    #302
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    Welcome. I was slated for a Whipple but the tune never happened, even found a very nice discount for one though my installer/tuner shop.

    HP Tuners has been saying "soon" for quite some time, since the release of the 2019s. I'm convinced its not happening for another year or two minimum. Other tuners rushed their product to market IMO and are dependent on third party services for calibration/features. I'll consider a tune as more tuner options become available.

    When you get a chance read the Harrop tech paper (love letter) regarding this particular untuned blower. It convinced me and a few others to pull the trigger on an install.

    So far no issues except for leaving skid marks on the streets and in my pants.
     
    snivilous and nobodyintexas like this.
  3. Sep 30, 2021 at 2:23 PM
    #303
    Danimal86

    Danimal86 What's a Dickfir?

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    I test drove an ecodiesel before i bought my tundra....that thing is SLOWWWWW off the line. If he has it tuned, may be a different story....but supercharged, its a done deal. no chance for him.

    edit: saw your other post about the mods he's done....he might have a chance
     
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  4. Sep 30, 2021 at 3:25 PM
    #304
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    HPT secretly rolls out stuff because now I hear that my 4runner has some support (I will know in a few days when I test it for myself).

    It sounds fun to drive. My older brother was sorta a pioneer in all these boosted fuel injected trucks. These old timers have crazy rigs that really keep to themselves now (I laugh old timers cause most of them are late 30's to early 50's). I wish Harrop would offer a limited powertrain warranty (for a little bit like maggie). I have not had the best experience with aussie companies (not Harrop) regarding my 80. I think you guys will be fine. I have this long list of upgrades that I will slowly chip away at and hope HPtuners opens tuning. In a week or 2, I will install the bed stiffener and the trans cooler. Slowly I will make my pro more of my overlander.
     
  5. Oct 1, 2021 at 3:48 AM
    #305
    nobodyintexas

    nobodyintexas What?

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    Whatever this forum told me to do

    I'll quote @Saltyhero13>>>When you get a chance read the Harrop tech paper (love letter) regarding this particular untuned blower. It convinced me and a few others to pull the trigger on an install. end quote both of your concerns are fully addressed in the white paper.


    also, during my dyno, my A/F ratios we very safe, pulling low 12's under peak load. Installer said 11.9, But I think it's based on lambda.

    You may not be aware that the 2020 Toyota ECU appears to handle 6psi quite well. meaning, with the extra air (with 85mm pulley), the ECU stays on the map.

    since I don't whip the truck every chance I get, no, I have not seen any inconsistency in the performance. @ViktorG did a nice vid showing the ECU altering the A/F ratio to protect the cats and supporting your theory of inconsistent performance. but! I'm ok with the ECU telling me to back off. I know me.

    I am not an engine guy & respect your apparent history with roots blowers. Whipple is nice and runs slightly cooler than the roots, however, as others have said - it ain't avail. I would have went with a whipple, if avail. Whipple makes boost under the blower, roots makes boost in the blower - am I right?

    Harrop had the best summary of installing and testing it without a tune & the best intercooler, so that's why I went with it. my untrained eye has seen very consistent performance.

    My installer, said the motor was still safely making boost to the rev limiter, so it had a lot to go. he just could not get to it with the ECU being locked. also said with ~6psi, he would not change the tuning - all the nannies were protecting the engine and trans. "it was great for a guy like me." whatever that means!!

    presently, my only gripe is the transmission programming. I would want it to shift a tad harder into 2nd. it presently kinda slides into 2nd & interrupts the black marks. I'm sure others concur. Did one of the hive do some Transmission work to soup it up?

    sidebar - I also have a 2015 4runner & would love to hear your recommendations.

    I want my words come across as respectful conversation & not petty aggression. My internet conversations don't always come across correctly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  6. Oct 1, 2021 at 7:12 AM
    #306
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    They do but its only one year and or 12K miles (or whatever it is), it not quite as good as Maggie's warranty.

    I think so. The way I read the tech guide this is a detuned version where they use a larger pulley to keep it on the map as noted above.
     
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  7. Oct 1, 2021 at 7:41 AM
    #307
    1UP

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    Anyone using an untuned Harrop stage 1 document before and after upgrading to LT and DD exhaust?
     
  8. Oct 1, 2021 at 8:53 AM
    #308
    Platinum714

    Platinum714 A--A

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    @vq35721 Did you have LT's on your rig?
     
  9. Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM
    #309
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    My Brother just got another Whipple like 2 months ago. They quoted 6-9 months but it came in 2.5. Unlike my truck, they quoted me 2 months and it took 10(lol glad I waited but the wait was bad). All this talk makes me want to order one now (maybe powder coated red or orange) and have it sit on my shelf.

    I read the white paper when @Saltyhero13 suggested it. Knocking can damage your piston and cylinder wall. Usually, the ECU corrects and pulls timing (etc) (Like Harrop talks about but it is still there.). Toyotas are mapd well but I would have preferred Harrop to offer some sort of drive train warranty behind all that testing (@Saltyhero13 posted as I was typing this, they do I just didn’t see it and that is good). They have the data from the prior years and nothing really has changed minus the trans cooler. They say you will be fine, and I have no reason to doubt them. I just wouldn’t do it without a tune. Did you get a gauge? Banks or whatever digital that reads boost and trans. In the mean time I would put a trans cooler on and a larger heat exchanger for the SC.

    How these superchargers work (I think you swapped the two). Roots is more like a blower, pumps air through and you get some compression (little to none) out of it, but it doesn’t really compress inside the SC. The twin screws compress inside the rotor housing of the SC.

    With regards to heat roots runs hotter starting at about 1800 RPMS (just using these numbers as examples but the actuals are pretty close to these). When you get to 3000 you almost at 25% hotter in degrees. At 5000 you get to about 40%+ more heat (it goes a lot more north than that). Heat kills motors, simple as that you will need larger heat exchanger for the Harrop.

    Boost air density on the twin screw creates 2-3 more psi under the same setup at the same rpms (within average boost zones).

    The efficiency of the roots is really bad. It looks graphed like logarithmic functions. Roots is log(1/b)x and the twin screw is log(b)x. Roots is best at 1000 rpms and at 2000 it starts getting a lot worse. The only really downside of screw is that they make more noise and they cost more (usually).

    Thanks for the disclaimer, now I know we should have sat and had beers over this topic. When tuning is available, I will definitely have my daily driver and offroad tune ready to go! I also don’t know how my messages read. I’m just here to learn, chat and have fun!
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
  10. Oct 1, 2021 at 8:58 AM
    #310
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    I posted in the LT thread. I think @Danimal86 was in that thread. I was wondering about the American Racing because they are made in the USA (just have to ceramic coat them) vs JBA which I think its made in Mexico now. Usually ARH have a great fit. Wondering if anyone has them installed here?
     
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  11. Oct 1, 2021 at 10:05 AM
    #311
    Danimal86

    Danimal86 What's a Dickfir?

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    :anonymous: not sure it was me.....but I've been wrong before.
    Either way, I'm in it to hear about some LT goodness
     
  12. Oct 1, 2021 at 10:07 AM
    #312
    vq35721

    vq35721 New Member

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    @Platinum714. Yes :) LT as in Long Travel suspension haha.. no not yet, planning on picking up some JBAs, Fuel Injectors and Pulley after renewing my registration
     
  13. Oct 1, 2021 at 10:51 AM
    #313
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    It was like a year ago I was just reading to catch up.

    LOL, guess we have to watch the abbreviations. Brave man, did you cut your bed? For some reason cutting the body makes me more emotional than cutting the frame.

    Are you gonna keep the oem cats? I hear a lot of quality issues with JBA. https://www.tundras.com/threads/jba-headers-quality-question.28791/
    All this truck stuff is just a hobby but sometimes JBAs welds makes me want to cry.
     
  14. Oct 1, 2021 at 11:01 AM
    #314
    vq35721

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    Some cutting, no biggie lol. Yeah I read part of that thread too. Hopefully, I get lucky enough and end up with a good quality JBA lol . Not sure about cats yet. Need to weigh in my options , being in Commiefornia says it all lol F6CF2714-8D50-4DC0-865F-7C230DFC4EE7.jpg
     
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  15. Oct 1, 2021 at 11:06 AM
    #315
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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  16. Oct 1, 2021 at 12:32 PM
    #316
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    Cool setup! I was not going to go that far on mine but I was going to put those 3" bypass and relocate the mounts for them (no cage).

    I got out of cali 10 years ago (for a number of reasons and it just gets worse), minus the week every month to fly to SF. One option, a lot of counties in Cali that are smog except, make a friend that is in one of those counties.

    No smog where I am. In general I keep the cats, just use high flow. I dont like the smell without them and does hurt to keep them on.
     
  17. Oct 1, 2021 at 1:18 PM
    #317
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    Thanks! My brother is really the guy to go to. We are all engineers, he is electrical, probably reads wiring diagrams and parts catalogues to his kids as bed time stories (I know he at least reads them to himself :)).

    Thanks for the link, it makes me rethink how I will make the brackets for the transcooler.
     
  18. Oct 1, 2021 at 7:06 PM
    #318
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    I'm wondering how I'll fit a transcooler and a heat exchanger behind the grille. May have to look at different sizes. Tundras thread on the same topic:
    https://www.tundras.com/threads/intercooler.43593/
     
  19. Oct 2, 2021 at 4:02 PM
    #319
    TX210Tundra

    TX210Tundra New Member

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    I have ARH LTs here, just no charger :(

    https://www.tundras.com/threads/just-another-arh-lt-review-pic-heavy.72677/


    Fitment was great and quality just as good outside of some small things I pointed out in my thread. If it weren't for the 22's coming I'd probably order a Whipple but rather use that coin for my down payment on an IForce Max Limited.
     
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  20. Oct 3, 2021 at 9:13 AM
    #320
    Silver17

    Silver17 Well, that’s just like uh, your opinion man

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    Toytec ultimate coilovers, toytec progressive mini AAL, Airlift bags, Harrop Supercharger stage 2, TRD Dual exhaust, method 17” 314s, 295/70r17 Grabber X3s.
    Hey guys/gals, I’m new to the forum and was following this post since I got the Harrop and I’m currently having it installed as a Stage 1. Just thought I’d add my findings as I have been researching heavily and getting supercharger info from another source. The Boosted Tundras, formerly supercharged tundras page on Facebook is a concentrated page for boosted tundra info. There are great resources on there including people with lots of supercharged tundra experience like the guys from Prospeed and SDHQ and they install all of the different superchargers, so I was able to see how they compared the Magnuson, Harrop and Whipple. It is also worth noting that Prospeed who builds a lot of these engines says the 3UR is typically good for 600 WHP before you better start building it, which is contrary to what I’ve read on this thread. If that is true, this broadens the viability of getting the larger Harrop and Whipple and turning them up a little bit to make big power easier than the magnuson.

    Magnuson TVS1900: runs with hotter intake temps and at a higher boost pressure to move the same volume as the bigger blower. Described as the most torquey at the lower RPMs cause that’s where it’s efficiency range is, but is more likely to run out of steam up top once you start turning them up. The most widely used and proven of the options.

    Harrop TVS2650: runs with much lower intake air temps than the magnuson which keeps the motor happy, and PSI for PSI can make a lot more power than the magnuson. DAP found that at 105 degree ambient the Harrop ran 20 degrees cooler Intake temps and made 90hp more than the magnuson at the same PSI. This blower is described has being more torquey in mid range through high range and will not run out of steam up top. 2nd most popular blower of the 3.

    Whipple: I’d say the Whipple has the least Info out there and is the least common, but it’s been said that it’s efficiency range is at much higher speeds so it won’t net you as much low to mid range torque as compared to the other 2. I could see how it might be desirable on a higher revving application but I’m not sure it would have benefits beyond the Harrop even in those applications.

    I ultimately chose the Harrop due to the potential for growth, the quality of the parts, and the ease of installation (no pesky hard to reach bolts like the magnuson). It also looks the best/cleanest under the hood IMO. The Whipple was described by Prospeed and DAP as a nice blower but for a while there they were shipping out a lot of kits missing parts and some improperly manufactured parts which didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. When researching comparisons of the Eaton TVS vs the Whipple on the GM pages for corvettes/Camaros the consensus was there were really few to zero examples of the Whipple making 1,000hp on that platform (there were on other engines), but the TVS 2650 had several examples. The Whipple 2.9 was more on par with the much smaller tvs2300.

    Sorry for the long post, but figured those interested in the topic would appreciate reading what I have discovered over the last 8 months of research all in one post! I’m not an expert on these by any means, but this is what I found in my research.
     
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  21. Oct 3, 2021 at 10:40 AM
    #321
    nobodyintexas

    nobodyintexas What?

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    Whatever this forum told me to do
    appreciate you jotting this info.

    good stuff.

    I used Pietz Performance and Alex conveyed the same feedback on the blowers. He said the same about the 3UR - 600whp is about the limit.

    There was a Camaro there with a giant Whipple that gave me envy.
     
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  22. Oct 3, 2021 at 1:00 PM
    #322
    1UP

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    So in summary a stage 1 Harrop no tune quality build has

    Harrop S/C
    Upgraded S/C intercooler
    Upgraded fuel pump
    Upgraded radiator
    Transmission cooler
    Long tube headers (optional)
    High flow cats (optional)
    Upgraded fuel injection (optional)

    Is that it?
     
  23. Oct 3, 2021 at 1:12 PM
    #323
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    My understanding is the LTH + HF Cats would require a tune. Someone else would have to comment if they've installed these without a tune but I was advised a tune would be required for anything besides a cat back. Curious to hear if HF Cats can be a substitute for the Cat delete described in the LTH thread, especially for states requiring emissions testing.
     
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  24. Oct 3, 2021 at 1:20 PM
    #324
    Silver17

    Silver17 Well, that’s just like uh, your opinion man

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    Id have to agree in that Stage 1 means your installing it on a truck with nothing more than perhaps a catback and a drop in filter. This also means using factory injectors and the largest 85mm pulley. The stock tune won’t be able to accommodate the headers, larger injectors or high flow cats to my knowledge. Id say a trans cooler (if your truck doesn’t have it) and a larger radiator are nice but not necessary. One additional item I would consider somewhat necessary is a good wideband gauge to monitor your AFR. I’ve read these engines need to be pretty rich to keep the cylinders cool due to the tight ring gaps, ideally in the 11.2-11.5 AFR at WOT range. If mine is in the 12s after installing I’ll be getting injectors and a tune right away rather than playing with fire.
     
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  25. Oct 3, 2021 at 3:37 PM
    #325
    1UP

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    Ok, so having a 19 to be safe I should still wait for the ECU to get cracked. Because I'd need a tune anyways if my AFR was too high.

    Do I have that right?
     
  26. Oct 3, 2021 at 3:52 PM
    #326
    sleddogracing

    sleddogracing New Member

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    Good research!

    A lot of the LS forums are not very good anymore (it is kind of overrun by kids). I see most of the real drag guys go with turbos.

    It is all about setup to get to 1000 rwhp (I’m on this mission with my goat and don’t want to go with turbos). Like in the mustangs Roush stage 2 is getting 750 RWHP. VMP performance claims 1000 HP on light modifications but they are actually doing a lot of mods. Both using Eaton’s tvs2650 (VMP may also be ported). These Gen5 Whipple 3.0L are looking amazing.

    The Whipple rotors spin at different speeds that’s why they peak at 18000 RPM (I think Whipple uses the slower of the two rotors for this value, not sure). The tvs2650 (24000 RPM) just pushes more air through (that’s why people say they do not run out of steam). Pulley size is what controls that speed entering boost sooner and maxing out on SC RPMs. I think the Whipple actually pushes more air through at a lower SC RPMs. I need to look more into both systems, the 5.7 and how much CFM should move through it.

    The TVS is a nice unit. Not many of us are going to drag the tundra (I like spinning circles in the dirt). Right now, IMO Harrop gives the better package for the tundra. I would love to see the Gen5 in the tundra. Both will put a smile on your face.

    Correct it requires a tune. Dont think cali will let you get away with high flow cats. IDK about other states.
     
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  27. Oct 3, 2021 at 4:13 PM
    #327
    Silver17

    Silver17 Well, that’s just like uh, your opinion man

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    There are plenty of people running them on stage 1 with no issues, and the shops that install them haven’t raised any concerns on the AFRs they are typically running at with stage 1. I just would rather be safe than sorry personally, but chances are you wouldn’t have any issues especially if you’re not doing a ton of long/hard pulls every time you get in it. If you want the extra reassurance of a backup plan if it’s running lean though, you may want to wait. I’d imagine there will be support for 2019 soon, worst case VFtuner does support the 19s. Also keep in mind they have a long lead time. Mine took 5 weeks when I ordered it in June.
     
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  28. Oct 3, 2021 at 4:23 PM
    #328
    Saltyhero13

    Saltyhero13 Throbbing Member

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    Not sure its worth it either. I recall reading that the stock (Edit: Gen 2.5) cats are basically high flows.
     
  29. Oct 4, 2021 at 4:41 PM
    #329
    Stangman

    Stangman New Member

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    I found out I’m limited on tuning because of the stock air box with a drop in aem filter. What aftermarket cai is best with the Harrop?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  30. Oct 4, 2021 at 5:15 PM
    #330
    Silver17

    Silver17 Well, that’s just like uh, your opinion man

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    Vehicle:
    2017 Silver Sky Tundra TRD offroad Supercharged
    Toytec ultimate coilovers, toytec progressive mini AAL, Airlift bags, Harrop Supercharger stage 2, TRD Dual exhaust, method 17” 314s, 295/70r17 Grabber X3s.
    Other than the Prospeed Intake I’m not sure what else would bolt up directly to the Harrop without some modifications. It’s not cheap but it probably is the best bet. If anyone else knows of one that bolts up easy to a Harrop I’d love to hear about it as well. https://www.prospeedautosports.com/...roducts/pro-tundra-cai?variant=37769359884454
     
    1UP and Stangman like this.

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