a.b.s. sucks…

Yep, it's happened to me a couple of times. Almost killed Clint Freeman and his wife at Cinders during a T2S "Go Fast Friday." Happened in Death Valley too appropriately enough. Pretty sure @KevinK had it happen on his 2.5 gen and @joonbug may have experienced it too.

 

Gang, for expert drivers who find themselves often losing control on the roads or if you use vehicle on unconventional surfaces: why not install a momentary switch that disables the feature when needed? Dut don't go pulling fuses like teeth from safety features that save lives!

 

A work around has been discussed but I think there's more than just ABS on that circuit like air bags?

 

Wouldn't a switch that would simply open one sensor circuit do the trick? Pretty sure if a sensor fails to read the system goes inoperable. No?

Edit: might require a high quality switch to minimize resistance, not exactly sure on the sensitivity of the system and the sensors.

 

I think that would create the x-mas tree dash and put the truck in limp mode just like when I've broken a sensor.

 

Doesn't pulling the abs fuse do the same? Or does it just light up abs? Perhaps next trip to salvage, I will try to grab a sensor that I can cut the wire on without regrets and experiment.

 

I dunno, I could be wrong about a broken sensor causing limp mode it's been 2 yrs since I broke one and I can't even remember what I had for breakfast today.

 

I would be happy be proven wrong, I am no expert.

But as I understand it, our trucks have no way to measure grip, they only have a speed sensor at each wheel.

This allows the ABS to know if a wheel is slowing down faster than the other wheels, or stopped all together (while the others are moving) implying less grip on that wheel but only relative to the others.

Perhaps the entire problem is that it SHOULD work the way you says it does, but ACTUALLY is working the way I say it does.

 

Pulling the fuses, only lights up the ABS, everything else is unaffected, at least on my truck.

 

ABS, in fact, costs lives.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-12-12-mn-8435-story.html#:~:text=The risk of fatality also,president of the Arlington, Va.

Even the NTSB says zero benefit:

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811182

Which is why I don't feel the least bad about not running with ABS.

I have thought about putting in a switch, but I don't think I would ever have the time to actually think about it and activate it when the brakes suddenly and unexpectedly cut out while trying to stop at low speed.

And as the advantages of ABS working 'normally' are dubious....its not worth the trouble.

It would be really interesting to know if this is a actual 'failure' or just a badly designed system. Because I have no error codes or anything, I've always assumed it was just a bad system, but its possible this is something that breaks in a particular way that many of us have experienced.

I know there is zero chance of this happening, but it seems something Toyota would be interested in, as this is a major safety issue when it happens. Everyone who has had this happen to them, knows that its terrifying.

 

I would think that if a switch would work to deactivate, then one could just flip it to deactivate when off pavement. Would that eliminate some or the biggest part of the issues? I'm thinking that if it was basically a sensor circuit interrupter it would trigger the ABS light which would also serve as a reminder to flip the switch back when returning to the pavement. Yes, no, maybe?

 

No. It happens on pavement. Slight sand on pavement; ice; who knows why. But the freeway off-ramp where mine failed the final time before I pulled the fuse, was pavement.

 

So in your case, you totally lost brakes? Or it was just slow to respond? Maybe hit a bump and were slightly airborne?

 

I would. I just think for me, I'd be more likely to forget to put it on, or take it off....as where I live, I drive on what most people would call 'off road' everyday just to go check the mail.

As I've never needed ABS on pavement, or wanted it off pavement, just disabling it is easier than trying to cut into my fuse block and wiring up a kill switch.

 

I'll say this, when I replaced my stock brakes with EBC yellow pads and Stoptech cryogenic treated slotted rotors I proceeded to bed them babies in really well. Not once did I lose braking or experience lock up so I feel alright about on pavement performance when it really counts. Stainless braided lines waiting on me so it should only get better after that. However, on ice, gravel, mud, etc. is another animal that I find concerning and will need to test more thoroughly.

 

So, downhill correct? Because when it has happened to me, it was always going downhill too....I wonder if that is a component in itself?

 

I mean, some of the 1st gens are equipped with a yaw sensor. It's under the center console in some years/models -- the truck I looked at had VSC, and VSC was dependent upon it, IIRC. I was curious, so I read everything I could find on it.

Anyway ... not sure if all models have it. The yaw sensor was discontinued. There've been a few people on here throwing related codes, but nothing to tell them except 'hit a JY'.

 

Totally lost brakes. No separation from the roadway.

 

Could be. One of the times was on a downhill incline. One was on fairly flat pavement at slow speed (same trip). One was off-road at speed. Luckily, I always leave a lot of following distance, but this has made me super leery about others following me "too" closely.

 

If you 'totally' lose brakes, that means your system is compromised. In another case, if you think you 'lost all brakes' going downhill on ice, then abs is not the culprit here, complete loss of traction is.

I don't know if I'm being annoying or obnoxious; it is not my intent here. I am concerned when I have to share the road with experienced people who have trouble navigating treacherous driving conditions and begin disconnecting parts of safety systems designed to keep them safe and approved by engineers and safety governing agencies.

 

The abs is the culprit if its what is shutting off your brakes....

I would not say 'completely' losing brakes in my case, that is kinda how it FELT, but the brakes where working a little, but I would say only a fraction of what they should have been doing, and it was completely from ABS because I could feel the pedal pressing back against my foot as I was fighting to press it down.

And it wasn't a loss of traction, because pulling the fuse immediately fixed the problem, on the same road. Traction was compromised, yes, but without the ABS I am fully able to stop in the same situation, with ABS I literally cannot stop until the hill stops and I slowly coast to a stop.

Engineers and safety governing agencies make massive mistakes all the time.

For instance, I'm an EMT, for the first fifteen years of my career medical backboards where VITAL tools for deal with people with any kind of suspect spinal injury. Anyone who was in a car wreck, fall, etc was back-boarded even with no complaints of back pain. The powers that be would happily pull your medical license if you didn't do it.

Then, Australia did a study that showed that backboards did more harm than good, and almost overnight they disappeared from the ambulance and suddenly we are told that no American study had ever been done on backboards and they had never actually been invented or evaluated for spinal protection, yet they had been required for that use, for millions of patients a year, for decades.

Also....again.....ABS has been studied.....the results show no safety benefits and up to a 45% increase in fatalities in some wrecks. 'Approved by engineers and safety governing agencies' carries zero water with me.

Again, not a conspiracy theory, real studies, by the same authorities in safety that mandated ABS, show ABS doesn't help prevent accidents. How ABS mandates survived that study, I find very damning of those agencies. I guess they can't admit they where wrong.

Never forget, as much as I love toyota.....there have been issues for years that have gotten people in wrecks, that 'don't exist' right up until they lose the lawsuit and then there is a massive recall.


In any case, I don't think anyone can deny that this isn't just a weird thing that happened to someone once. There is some kind of systemic problem here. Enough of us have had such similar experiences I think its clear that either the ABS system is just plain bad....or there is some kind of specific way it commonly fails.

Until it happens to you, it may be hard to believe, but when it does, you will never forget it.

For the sake of science, when it snows here in a couple months, I'm going to try and replicate the problem, and video it.

 

Abs cannot be studied by reviewing the accidents because it plays only a small fraction of the role in an accident. There are many things that happen during an accident and abs engaging is only a small part of it, if ever.

Human being experiencing an accident will likely be in a panic, locking up wheels and just sliding uncontrollably into the obstacle. I've seen people brake in the rain and whenever they have no GPS, it's a water slide in the direction of travel with wheels stopped. Saying abs provides no safety benefits is a very strong statement.

If you look around on YouTube of people crashing on ice, most drivers hit the brakes and go where the inertia takes them. You rarely see someone letting off the brakes and able to steer. Why are they able to steer? Because they don't lock up brakes. That's exactly what abs does. Most typical drivers out there cant drive a car better than an office chair, therefore any safety feature included will only be of benefit.

 

@ColoradoTJ , gang! That gave me a heavy laugh, followed up by painful stabs in the side! I'm not in that age anymore when laughing has no ill 'side' effects. Excuse the pun!

 

Except did you miss the embedded links above? Whatever the original intent behind ABS, the very bodies charged with administering such tech have figured out, it's not as safe as intended.

You can worry about this. I worry about tailgaters and texters. Because of stuff I've read on this forum, I also worry about overloaded later gen Tundras pulling overloaded trailers.

 

The fact that you're Anti-Thong in any weather condition troubles me greatly.

 

Was it Hulk that you had breaking issues with?

 

Ok, not gonna argue most of this; no point. I will say, as someone that grew up driving dozens of old vehicles in mud and snow and ice, and none of them 4x4, I learned a great deal about real world physics (an object in motion...) pumping brakes, letting off brakes and turning out of a skid. And I don't panic while driving, due to so many hairy experiences in those early years of driving.

Yeah, most people don't drive well. Every time I watch people fuck up U-turns, I am reminded that drivers are mainly stupid people . So ABS was probably a good idea... until it wasn't. Either Toyota messed something up, or I just haven't heard from drivers of other makers' vehicles (because I typically talk trucks only with Toyota friends).

Either way, having grown up driving vehicles without ABS, it's practice for me to use downshift to brake on steep inclines, to brake early, to brake hard to stop in an emergency, and if the brakes aren't responsive, to immediately pump the pedal. That won't save me when the ABS fails. Pulled the ABS fuse and now I have old fashioned brakes for which I received many years "training" in collision avoidance.