2nd vs 3rd Gen towing

To elaborate on this, how many semis can maintain 80 mph or even 60 mph up a steep grade? Those are turbo charged diesels. Does anyone think they don't have enough power and torque to do the job they do day in and day out?

 

Semis can maintain relatively high speeds given the weight they are hauling because the way power is rated for passenger vehicles up to 1/2 tons is different from HD pickups to class 8 trucks. The SAE standard is different.

For smaller vehicles, the SAE rating is peak (transient) power production. For larger vehicles, the SAE rating requires the powertrain to be able to sustain peak power for an extended period of time. If you tried to run a passenger car engine at redline under significant load for 30 minutes, it would probably turn into kibbles and kits. Meanwhile, an engine like the Ford 7.3L in the Super Duty is designed to output 430hp over an extended period of time.

 

I think you missed my point. That engine makes way more torque than your halfton does yet the semi still drops to 45 mph or less going uphill. Yet no one says it's junk and needs more power. So why do guys expect their half-tons to be able to maintain 80 mph uphill when towing near max?

 

SAE J2807 does not test above 40mph. The rating is a joke and all the domestic brands still cheat on the tests by removing parts to reduce weight and being allowed to start from a rolling start. The 5.7 3UR-FE will NOT blow up under load for 30 minutes. Don't try to compare a Subaru sedan's engine to a Tundra and claim they're both "passenger" vehicles. The 3UR-FE will outlast the "Godzilla" 7.3L under any testing circumstances. Ford's 5.0 would do even worse. You don't get to over 1mil miles with oil changes every 10kmiles hotshotting with a Ford.

 

The road test portion of the SAE J2807 test is pretty severe. The MINIMUM is 40 mph. From my experience, it’s hard for most manufacturers to hold the speed 50 mph going up the hill, especially the steeper last few miles before the peak. Not sure what you mean by “cheat” since the test relies on GCWR so making a lighter truck means a heavier trailer. And the rolling start thing is moot because it has so little effect on the overall result.

ANYWAY, he’s talking about SAE engine power test standard.

 

You only have to run at 40mph to pass. That doesn't help the customer know whether they can maintain with the flow of traffic safely. This is why the Ford Powerboost overheated in real world towing tests.
Rolling start doesn't matter for this? Since when does getting up to speed from a stop, not matter in real world towing?

Why was Toyota the only one to follow the standard going into effect in 2013(and 2 years before)? Why did none of the domestic brands adhere to their agreed upon standard in 2013?
You don't understand that reducing weight of the truck allows for ratings that don't represent what the customer will be driving?
"2014 GM Sierra advertised tow rating of 8,800 pounds and was significantly higher than the 2013 model’s 6,900 pounds. GM lowered the 2014 trucks’ ratings to 6,800 pounds in a letter to owners."


The acceleration from stop tests give each manufacturer up to 5 minutes to complete 5 cycles to only go 15 feet... lol
"SAE J2807 For any given trailer weight, the tow vehicle needs to accelerate to 30 mph in 12 seconds or less, to 60 in 30 seconds or less, and from 40 to 60mph over level ground in no more than 18 seconds. Dualies are allowed extra time to meet these requirements."


If you're not aware of the basics, this might bring you up to speed:



Yes, in reference to the SAE engine power testing, the 5.7 3UR-FE will not blow up under load for 30 minutes like he tried to claim. The 7.3 Godzilla will not outlast it in endurance testing either. There's a reason you don't see Ford HD trucks outlasting the 3UR-FE without major rebuilds or replacements.

 

Yeah it’s correct that you only have to run at 40 mph to pass the Davis Dam portion of the test. But there are other propulsion tests included in the standard. The 0-30-60 mph launch acceleration is one, the 40-60 mph passing acceleration is another, and the hill start on 12% grade (launch 5 times to 15 ft within 5 minutes) is a third. They don’t all take place at Davis Dam or require super high temperatures. There are more tests than that for understeer, trailer sway response, stopping distance, parking brake hold, etc.

My point is that the minimum to meet Davis Dam is 40 mph but there are a multitude of other tests that will limit the trailer capacity and GCWR way before Davis Dam “gradeability” test does. Most half tons can run it faster than 40 mph.

The rolling start doesn’t matter. The official start point is the intersection of AZ-68 and McCormick blvd. It’s a pretty easy start (flat road) and the speed limit is only 35 mph for a mile. After a mile it flattens out for a bit before the real grade begins when the speed limit changes to 55 mph. That’s the hard part that taxes the cooling system.

 

You're using that word wrong.

 

Minor thing to keep in mind when backing up the trailer: the truck's rear-collision-avoidance thingy will automatically and forcefully brake when it feels it's a little too close to the trailer, scaring the chinos off you. Have to remember to shut it off when the angles get tight.

 

Oh, now that could be fun having somebody else back your trailer for the first time.

 

Valid

 

Are you just repeating what I already said about what the test consists of now? Nothing you said is new information.

My point, is that the SAE J2807 is a joke and barely tests the capability of the vehicles in relation to real world towing.
That is why the Ford Powerboost overheated in real world towing tests.
That's why domestic brands overrate their towing capability due to gaming the test.
That's why the chief engineer of the Tundra product line has stated they don't play the towing game that finds ways to add more each year like the domestics do, and is very risk adverse in their ratings.
Who cares what you can tow at 40mph?
Try towing 12,000 lbs on a F-150 and see how unsafe it actually is to you and others around you on the road.
There is a reason why the 22 Tundra has been constantly reviewed as more stable and sturdy than any other 1/2 ton going down the road.
Prove the 7.3L Godzilla is any more reliable than the 5.7L 3UR-FE with over a decade of data on it.

Ask yourself: why are Toyota parts intentionally overbuilt compared to their competitors?
How can a hotshotter driving over a million miles with only oil changes every 10k miles keep going beyond what the odometer is capable of measuring? Do you not realize how hard on the frame and engine hotshotting is? No domestic half-ton would ever get close to that reliability.



From the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_8iAPCmi34

 

Why in the hell wouldn't Tim have asked about the damn Turbo issue? It's the No. 1 concern about the new truck. Video is dated March 9th.
Maybe he has a separate one coming....

 

Just got back from first medium/heavy tow with the Plat and AVS. I am comparing to a 2019 Dbl cab LONG bed. This Plat is crew 5.5.

First off I was pleasantly surprised how well this thing did with 6300 lb and 27 foot box, 31’ over all. On the 19’ the trailer was a little heavier and a hair longer.
The truck is so so much easier to hook up a bumper pull by yourself with the cameras and the surprising (to me not Toyota marketing) utility of the AVS and ability to raise and lower the rear while stationary or at low speeds (18 mph for H an 8 I think for Low). It makes hooking and unhooking much easier as ball seems to stick when trying to simply raise tongue off ball and a heavy tongue weight makes “kicking it” a tough exercise. Hit the manual lower and it pops it right out.
As far as payload. Not going rehash the stats/arguments but note I do try to stay at the payload weight or very little margin over. This means in my case I tend to not load up the truck hardly at all but distribute the items and weight as they should be in the trailer.
I used a new Anderson WDH/sway hitch. I still need to play with that some as I didn’t crank it down much and likely can easily transfer a little more weight over the front wheels of the Tundra.
Once hitch set up (I did it not RV dealer) I headed south for the 2 1/2 hour trip. Right off the bat I could tell this motor is seems near perfectly matched to the transmission. So much smoother and easier acceleration than the previous gen I had. Both obviously get it done but this was had zero screaming motor episodes nor did it ever search for a gear or hard clunk to the next gear on a fairly descent grade. Most of the nanny aides automatically cut off when in Tow haul mode. (I used Tow+). As this was basically a shake down trip of truck and trailer I kept it about at speed limit or 3-5 over and much of it was 62-65 and I did use cruise control.
No white knuckling and may have been the quietest interior I have ever been in towing interstate, through a town or two and up and down hills I’ve ever had. (I have an embarrassing long list of tow vehicles over last 30+ years to include a couple diesel dually’s).
The ride was good as well with no bucking starting and stopping like on the 19 and I have a little more confidence in how this truck along with the trailer brakes comes to a stop.
- Only thing I would have different is having the tow mirrors. (Though like look of these much better) Mine did not come with them and as don’t tow every other day was not a show stopper. So to help there I ordered cameras for rear and each side of camera for when I do tow.

** forgot to add: for the 19, o/a 8-8.5, for this ONE 124 mile tow 11.3

 

I didn’t watch your video. I can’t stand that guy. I have the J2807 document so I was just listing what it says. You weren’t really clear in your explanation and I couldn’t understand what point you were trying to make...

I think J2807 is way more severe than what most people will tow on a regular basis. I agree that the big 3 focus on maximizing the trailer weight and the F150 is one of the most unstable trucks to tow heavy trailers at highway speeds especially compared to the 22 Tundra. That towing security/stability is difficult to quantify. However, if the big 3 can satisfy J2807, then their tow ratings are not overrated.

When you talk about the F150 Powerboost, do you mean TFL? I think their driving conditions were even more severe than Davis Dam. They were trying to keep 60 mph on an 80 F day at 8000-10600 ft on 6% grade for 11 miles. Plus the 20% lower air density means worse cooling overall compared to Davis Dam. That’s probably why Ford suggests 2% reduction in weight for each 1000 ft.

ANYWAY, from my personal experience towing an enclosed car hauler weighing in around 10,000 lbs, F150 Ecobost with the max tow package can climb Davis Dam at about 55 mph without overheating. I did it a few years ago in May but it was still in the high 90s in Laughlin.

 

Interesting way of admitting you were wrong and reinforcing what I said, that REAL WORLD towing tests like what TFL did are more useful to the consumer in determining what you can and cannot tow SAFELY.

They were only going 60Mph which gives plenty of airflow over the engine bay, while only towing 8100lbs... Not even close to the max rating that Ford tries to convince its buyers it can do.
The Ford Powerboost is a forced induction engine. The lack of air density doesn't affect it as much as a NA engine. Yet, the NA 5.7L 3UR-FE didn't even struggle... Neither does the TTV6 in the 22 Tundra. Shocking...
Not only are Toyota engines more powerful, they don't overheat and they last longer than even Ford's "HD" engines.

 

Toyota would not (or should not) have any say over the video itself, although they controlled the narrative with the setting and access to Mike. I've reached out to Tim to ask why he didn't seize the opportunity ....

 

In all likelihood it was probably discussed beforehand and he would have been told that because it is an ongoing issue/process/etc. they wouldn't be commenting on it. As far as Toyota not having any say, they absolutely 100% do. They can deny access, snub, and ignore anyone who gets too froggy for the sake of "gotcha" moments or questions. Any intelligent interviewer that wants future interviews isn't going to sh*t where they eat.

 

Not quite 100 per cent. They do control the narrative, but the final product, be it story or video, is up the writer/shooter unless it is a paid advertisement. Yes, plenty of content producers, more so these days, can be biased depending on the trip/hotel/meals/entertainment provided, but not always.

You are correct, though, about automakers denying access to launches and press cars. Years ago, when I wrote about the Ford Windstar being an absolute POS, or the Escalade being a total waste of money when the Lexus LX was there for the choosing, I was blacklisted by Ford and GM for almost a year. But they eventually came around, until we said the Lincoln Navigator was another pile of dung.

A lot of it has to do with PR manager — some are excellent as taking valid criticism, others way too sensitive. When we burned a bunch of big-ass brakes at Road America trying to reign in what was then the new Panamera Turbo, and promptly wrote about, Porsche didn't say a word but quietly upgraded the brakes. Anyway, back to the topic of towing, this is not about auto writing.

 

Oh, but derails are the way of the forum!

 

Forget about backing a boat trailer with the tailgate down.. took me a couple times to find the off switch for that nonsense..

 

why would you want to do that ? I’ve never had the tailgate down for that , just curious

 

My dad will back my trailer in with the tailgate down. He's never backed with mirrors and can't see the empty trailer over the high bed.

 

Lol this fucking guy. I originally said the Davis Dam portion of J2807 is severe. Not a lot of highways have 11 mile long 6% grades with 100+ degree temperatures. And I do think the 6% grades in 80F weather at 8000-10000 ft are more severe. But guess what, the majority of the US is pretty fucking flat compared these areas. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make or how I’m wrong but ok. It’s plenty safe to tow max weight rating anywhere in the country, just slow down. Semi trucks slow down to 35 mph on these steep grades. There’s no problem going 10 mph under the limit in the right lane, I’ve done it before. How is that unsafe?

Also, I was talking about cooling not engine power with regards to elevation. Convective heat transfer is proportional to air density so as density goes down heat transfer coefficient also goes down. This effect is most noticeable in vehicle AC’s difficulty cooling the cabin say high elevation.

Finally, TFL said they were towing 10k lbs with the Powerboost. The Tundra’s cooling is a lot better than Ford’s likely due to the huge radiator and huge mechanical fan in the Tundra (and also huge grill).

 

So you can see the entire trailer including the wheels. Makes backing things a lot easier when you can see them.

 

Well if you wanna slow down to 35mph with your Ford and that makes you happy, then good for you. You'll get passed up by the 22 Tundra barely even breaking a sweat with plenty of power to spare. No 2% reduction per 1000feet on the Tundra. Ford's specs look better on paper than in the real world.

 

Haha the 4runner is staying, just not going to be my daily driver

 

https://youtu.be/isiXUi2nmIM

 

Another Video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg5uKTEriyU&t=326s

 

I think there needs to be a test of a 1 ton SRW gas pickup versus a 1/2 ton gas pickup going WOT with the max load of the 1/2 ton for 30 minutes.

See which vehicle's powertrain is more likely to turn into kibbles and bits.