2023 Suburban - Just had a "why'd we leave Toyota?" moment

Minor correction, but the Grand Wagoneer is a TT I-6, not a V-6.

And by all accounts it substantially outperforms the 392 Hemi it replaced (roughly 1 second faster 0-60), while getting better fuel economy (1mpg better).

Edit… and cheers on the new ride. Love how the AT4’s look, the updated interior with dropping the column shifter, and how their rear cargo area and seats all work to create a cavernous space.

 

I didn’t get through this whole thread so maybe someone answered this already. I had a 2015 silverado w afm. You could bypass it by putting it in S, not D, and just selecting the highest gear. Mine was 6 I believe, and it would shift normally and not de-activate cylinders. It should have that in the manual.
I’ll also mention that I was a huge GM supporter of full size trucks until that silverado. At work we had a bunch of them suffer from the same issue GM bought mine back. Low pressure return fuel pump.

 

My anecdotal experience with the AFM issue.

I had a 2016 Tahoe LT with the 5.3 for 3 years as a work truck. Really enjoyed the truck as it drove great, was nicely sized, and the versatility of the 2nd / 3rd row cargo area was fantastic. Quiet, comfortable, adequate power (did not tow with it), and would get 20*mpg cruising.

However……. it did drop a lifter due to AFM at 55K miles, which then took out the camshaft and basically nuke the top half of motor. Warranty covered it, and I still see one of our office engineers still has it, so it’s not dead yet.

 

I didn't realize that S mode bypassed AFM. Interesting!

Mine would foul up cylinder 7 so bad that it would misfire. It would happen every 6-8k miles. My DIY fix was to remove all spark plugs, shoot AC Delco upper engine cleaner into the cylinders, wait two hours, replace spark plugs (#7 would always look like it had 200k miles on it, so I'd put a new spark plug in), start it up, and let it idle, belching out white smoke for 30 minutes. It would run fine until the next time. I bought the AFM Disabler two years ago, and from then until Nov '22 when we sold it for the LX, cylinder 7 didn't give me any more problems. I'm not sure if it cured it or just slowed the process down significantly, but I did not hang around to find out.

 

The included manual only addresses button functionality (read through it last night). Going to download the full manual this evening. Will look for that.

However, still wanting something like a Range product as it's not my DD and that'll ensure AFM stays off.

*Should make an edit here since someone will call me out - have since read that technically we aren't talking about AFM, it's DFM. Now all the lifters are subject to failure!

 

Good catch. I had already forgotten. But in all honesty, we didn't want to spend that kind of money and the TT was the relevant portion.

 

Can totally understand.

Grand Wagoneers are crazy expensive.

 

We bought a 2022 Yukon, as the wife is replacing kids with Great Danes. I’m in a love / hate relationship with the Yukon. I skimmed through this thread, hopefully I’m not repeating someone. For the DFM disabler, I haven’t found anyone making it yet for the new models. GM change enough in the computer that the older disablers won’t work. We made it just over 8,000 miles when the #2 & #8 lifters went bad, and 3 states away. Dealer replaced all lifters on right side. I’ve had auto headlight issues, now there’s a recall for the daytime running lights, radio issues, and still waiting for a couple chips that were supposed to be here 4th quarter of 2022. Feel like I’m missing something else too. I haven’t tried the S mode theory yet, but from my understanding you will not shift to 10th gear. Not sure how that affects mileage for long highway trips. Anyways, if someone finds a disabler, I’d love to hear where you got it from.

 

I called Range tech support this morning, which was pointless, and got nowhere when trying to ask for their engineering dept. Was told to try an email chain through Holley and that they offer a 30 day return policy. From their product selector a 2022 5.3 1500 is supported but a Suburban is not... Ordered one anyway and going to do some highway tests to see if I can feel any difference, as well as combing through the manual to see if there's a hidden setting for determining when DFM is active.

The DRL and radio TSBs seem to be common. Had ran the VIN on some used models through Chevy's internal repair tracking software (helps to have family in service management) and those are common issues. We're in a time where newer protocols are being introduced. I'm sure GM's engineers still don't have I2S and SPE auto ethernet ironed out yet.

 

I talked to Range Tech when all this happened back in August. They mentioned there is a difference in computers now from the 5.3 trucks vs. the 5.3 SUV’s for the 2022 models and newer. No idea if it’s true or not. I hope this works and look forward to hearing your updates!

My auto headlights worked opposite, on during the day and off at night. Replaced the ambient light sensor and new software to correct.

 

I was looking really hard at thr at4 when I bought the Tundra. Won't say I am brand loyal...just had great luck with my 96 and 06 Silverados. The 8spd and valve spring issues that the late model GMs were having scared me off. GM should pull a Ford and 10spd everything.

Wife's 2017 Outback is very roomy, but really only for 4 (can fit 3 snuggly in the back seat) and averages 26/27mpg and she loves it. Transmission is a total snooze fest though.

 

Didn't they? I don't think you can get an 8 now.

 

Someone at Holley gave me a general email for Range. Will see what comes of it.

 

I read that first sentence and was like, tell me where you can do that!! I will replace my two with dogs (maybe other breeds, but you get the point)

 

Guess that didn’t sound right.

 

Hope you have some luck with one of them!

 

had a 2012 Sienna until about 4 years ago once we hit 5 kiddos and it wasn't a matter of cargo space as payload. Go a '14 Expedition XL 2WD V8 (livin' in the south at the time) - ended up moving to where we're at today and thought we'd maybe look for a 4x4 in a few years after the move. within the first year we went over a pass and ended up getting the rocker issue on #4 and #8 (iirc - middle and back on the passenger side) - had to replace the full upper block (old 5.4 triton). We ended up in TX for a few months for 2020 Christmas to get out of crazy town with a specific goal to sell/trade the 2WD. About signed on a "custom" Transit but found a '17 Expedition XL with the TTV6 but STILL had the 6 speed. Been super happy mechanically - no problems since. Parents in the mean time went through 2 Yukon XLs with the 10 speed and the second is "better" but they still like ours better.

long and the short of it - Toyota needs to get off their thumbs and just use the shortbed cremax and make a Sequoia "XL" - it's l i t e r a l l y sitting right in front of them . I've written Toyota multiple times about it, and finally got a response that they feel there's no market for "full size long wheelbased SUVs and that the Toyota Sienna fits a majority of the market cases that need additional passenger space." Yet they'll sell a $90k+ Toyota version of the LX570 for years selling...what...100 copies a year?

anyways - gl with the GM and let's hope someone in Toyota finally listens to customer feedback.

 

Apparently there’s no market for an HD Tundra, even though the #2 reason people have historically left the Tundra is payload capacity. (#1 being fuel economy).

Somehow, Toyota thinks there’s no for reason to offer the things that make LOTS of people leave because Toyota doesn’t offer.

 

I would shell out +10k for an old V8 Sequoia with 2-3 feet of cargo space behind the third row. Don't know what Toyota means there's no market: every Yukon I see in our family-oriented suburb is XL, every Expedition is MAX. Family overlanding is on raise. COVID lockdown "surprise" babies, too.

 

This. I’d buy that in a heartbeat.

 

Agreed. For now, you can pocket the $10k and get a little bit creative on the cargo with a Thule up top or a hitch basket in the back for the trips where you really need the space.

EDIT: like the Sequoia owners in this thread.

 

Roof and hitch cargo aids are both bad.

With cargo on roof the vehicle starts to pick up lot more front and side wind. It may sway side to side in a really frightening manner (think of a steel roof basket fully loaded with overlanding stuff). On my past rig I had to install the most stiff sway bars, and it still was not perfect. High center of gravity sucks.

Hitch cargo kills ramp angle and squats the rear axle, but, worse, it unloads the front wheels, which can be dangerous on unpaved roads.

That's why I would rather pay $3-5k per feet of cargo in trunk. Or maybe a super-short bed 3 rows Tundra? =)

 

It's kind of funny talking about needing to have a full-size SUV that can perform the same tasks that are better suited to our trucks. Why do we need both vehicles to be able to do the same thing? Unless we have a 4th kid, there's no scenario where I will load down our LX for the dispersed camping trips we take while I own a full size truck. The truck is far better suited for that.

But for long road trips where we're going to visit family in a different state and will spend all our time on paved or gravel roads, putting <200lb worth of duffel bags and suitcases in a hitch basket or up top in a cargo box is fine. I've used both in the past and with what our clothes weigh, it is an absolute non-issue.

Plus, I don't have to go rescue my family on the ride of the road or be on a first-name basis with my a mechanic or dealer service manager.

 

We are planning doing ~3k miles overlanding trips up north in Canada, with sleepover in wilderness. I would take Tundra any day for such a trip, but family demands more comfort (DC bench is OK for maybe 4-6 hours trips, not for a full week).

 

The suburban won’t give a shit about a roof basket. It will drive just fine. The stuff is hard to reach in there though. Standing in the open doorway isn’t ideal. They make a wheel saddle thing with a step and a door latch hook thing with a step. I would have one or both if I had roof top storage. The hitch based storage is more convenient from that standpoint and with a couple hundred pounds in it, I wouldn’t be concerned with front tire weight unloading. I would recommend one that can swing away like a spare tire carrier. They also make them with an upward curve or angle to improve departure angle clearance. All of the cooler features are $$$. Buy once cry once I guess.

 

^^^^^^^^^^ this - THIS

on top of with a larger cargo space it's more "secure" when you're staying overnight at a hotel and you can access it without having to get soaked and packing a ladder to get to something your kids put in their roof top bag instead of their trunk bag. we have a roof top carrier for our expedition XL and it does fine, but the trips without it are much easier to drive, better mpg, and I don't have to worry about making sure I locked it 20 times before heading into the hotel (or over loading it).

why? why?? to @vtl's point - people want to buy them.

I mean - again, I can see where people don't see value because they don't live in a life situation that needs one. But again, there are many MAXs and XLs on the road so the market is still there. The blindness of Toyota saying there's no market is the maddening thing as even from here there's buyers ready to hand over "+$10k" today, and I would argue that you could convert quite a few big 3 buyers to a Toyota simply on the reliability marketing tag. It's the "reasons" for me that drive me nuts and are frustrating, and especially because I'm one of the "+$10k" today use cases.

 

Oh I get it. I did my time with the XL SUVs, and I ain’t going back. It is far more worth it to me to stay with a slightly smaller Toyota/Lexus. Yeah I have to add cargo solutions for the two trips per year we use this vehicle to go out of state with suitcases. That’s an easy price to pay for not having constant and recurring issues. If one has three kids and a dog or two, I don’t see how a truck isn’t infinitely better for camping/adventure trips. I don’t need my two vehicles to overlap so much for these tasks. Obviously, everyone’s opinions vary.

Do I wish there were a Sequoia XL? Of course. Just like I wish there were an HD Tundra. It’s like Toyota doesn't understand how many people leave them because they don’t offer these things.

OR, maybe they do know best and it’s only us enthusiasts on forums (a very small % of the market) who want to see these offerings from them. Maybe they’re right that our desires would not translate into market share. It’s easy to think they’re not. We’re kind of in an enthusiast echo chamber of sorts here.

 

Spot on. But then GM and Ford somehow manage to harvest all that enthusiast's cash. Toyota says instead: "Buy a Sienna"...

 

I wish they’d do it just so we could know.

Sequoia XL and a Tundra HD. Let’s go!!!

 

I suspect it's because of the (possibly perceived) brand loyalty in North America. The 2007 Tundra blew the doors off the big three but never sold more than about 100k units a year. So why should they bother competing in classes that are typically dominated by the big 3 in North America? I think it's different for North American vehicles vs global vehicles. It makes sense for them to make the Corolla competitive or to put a big grille on a car that the Chinese market will buy. Full size body on frame V8 vehicles for the US and Canada just aren't going to cut it when it comes to the bottom line.