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2020 LandCruiser comes with transmission cooler, why not Tundra?

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2014-2021)' started by sabet, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:00 AM
    #121
    327Tundra

    327Tundra New Member

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    Gdiep that is my plan I am just waiting to hear back from Toyota corporate I spoke with them yesterday afternoon and they stated they will have a definite answer for me if they are going to have the dealer install the factory parts or not the extended warranty offer was made by the field officer and I told the dealership I would let them know once Toyota corporate gave me an answer hopefully by Monday or Tuesday afternoon at the latest
     
  2. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:03 AM
    #122
    blanchard7684

    blanchard7684 New Member

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    Thanks for posting that.

    the oil condition could be from other internal damage. May not be from heat by itself.
     
  3. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:23 AM
    #123
    RyeHog

    RyeHog New Member

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    I guess I was including from 2014 since people seem to see the same temps even with the aux cooler/warmer on the older 3rd gens.
     
  4. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:31 AM
    #124
    BravoDeltaRomeo

    BravoDeltaRomeo Old Man Blue

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    I can see it being an issue if you tow 5-6 days a week, like @327Tundra stated he does.

    I'm doing 1000km round trips, across prairies, 2-3 times a year.

    That said, if they offered me a cooler (which they won't, ever), I'd take it.
     
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  5. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:34 AM
    #125
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    I think pre-19s have lower temps both driving normal and towing. My 18 #s are lower than what I see 19-21 owners posting. 19-21 owners who have added an aux cooler are posting lower temps too.
     
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  6. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:36 AM
    #126
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    Yep. That’s the failure rate Toyota was probably comfortable with when they made the decision to remove it.
     
  7. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:40 AM
    #127
    BravoDeltaRomeo

    BravoDeltaRomeo Old Man Blue

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    They save a few hundred bucks in the couple hundred thousand Tundra's sold....and have to put a new transmission in .05% or less of fails.

    They are waaaaay ahead in the end and never have to admit anything.
     
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  8. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:42 AM
    #128
    Terndrerrr

    Terndrerrr it's good to get lost once in a while

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    If it turns out that the fluid burnt and the trans failed because of the lack of an external cooler, it seems the failures will really start to pile up much later. Hardly anyone uses a 2019+ Tundra for daily towing/hauling.
    Still not millions. If you add up yearly sales figures since 2014, we’re around 805k total Tundras on the road through 2020. And the earlier years with the external cooler do run cooler temps in the transmission.

    Exactly my thoughts. How many 2019+ owners tow/haul regularly let alone daily? They’ll have very few failures before anyone’s warranty expires.

    Saving $500 (that’s pure speculation on my part) on 200k trucks is $100M. :eek2:
     
  9. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:43 AM
    #129
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ So there I was.... Staff Member

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    The Tundra trucks 14-2018 are not running 260+ degrees F with light towing, or 235*F while empty. Where did you see that?
     
  10. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:47 AM
    #130
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ So there I was.... Staff Member

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    I cleaned up the thread a little bit fellas. Had to even delete several of my posts. This is a good thread.
     
  11. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:49 AM
    #131
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    Could be over 300k trucks after 21s are sold. That could make it $150M-$200M vs a few $4k-$5k transmissions.
     
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  12. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:57 AM
    #132
    BravoDeltaRomeo

    BravoDeltaRomeo Old Man Blue

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    If they give owners who's trucks failed, a new transmission, free extended warranty and a BB hat or travel mug, they'd feel like they won the lottery.

    Heck, the ones who put up a fuss or filed a lawsuit, they could give new a new truck and make them sign a NDA and still be up millions in just parts.

    Not installing it means no labor or maintenance on it either, so saves them time, inventory, ordering, etc etc.

    They are all about LEAN and one less thing to install in the Tundra is a huge savings that goes far behind just the price of the parts and extends right down to the cost of the ink printed on the pamphlets or window sticker.

    ** For anyone who thinks I'm joking about the ink printed on the window sticker, go to a LEAN/Kaizen session, draw up a spaghetti diagram and dissect a minor work process to improve it. Yup, I've been to a few at work :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  13. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:08 AM
    #133
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ So there I was.... Staff Member

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    This was posted in another thread, and I will add it here. Red is a Toyota Engineer. Their name will stay anonymous, so don't even ask. I was given permission to post this much content. From my private email:

    Hey man, no worries. Been a long time!

    it’s bullshit imo and it’s why I m adding one. There was a whole discussion about the modern WS fluid actually having a higher temperature working range, which is true, but we’ve also seen defects in trucks for overheated fluid. I’ve been trying to get ahold of our design function and let them know that this is going to be a problem, but this is a prime of example of people designing trucks that don’t use them, or at least in what I would consider “normal ways”. From a business perspective, I’m sure it makes sense. A vast majority of the people using their truck won’t ever see an issue since they just use it to drive to work and back everyday, but we’re pinching pennies(from a value engineering standpoint to remove it) and might be spending dollars to fix the folks who actually use their truck as a truck. I’m a bit disappointed that we actually went with this direction, but it is what it is.


    It has been a while. This is between us then.

    I figured that this would be an issue with people that actually used their trucks for work and fun towing duties. Hell, I get concerned with my Allison 1000 when I creep up to 200 degrees F. I have only seen that once though. Mostly in 135-160*F range towing 9500+ lbs.

    Yeah, more modern transmissions are running hotter, but that’s where the thermostat plays a role. No unnecessary cooling, unless it’s needed. Also, helps with efficiency, fuel economy, etc.

    Feel free to share the info, but not the source.


    Done deal. I was also disappointed with Toyota moving in this direction. You think warranty will be an issue if the front mounted fluid cooler is installed? What about running to cool? My Allison 1000 runs really cool compared to the Toyota/Ford/GM (non allison)/Ram units.

    As far as covering it? Probably not. These things are tanks man. It’s effectively been the same trans for over a decade now and they very rarely fail. So long as the fluid is topped off correctly, the thermostat will do the work. As far as your question about being too cool, that’s very much an issue that people oversee. They think cooler is always better, but it’s not the case. The trans, much like the engine, has a band of nominal operating temperature where it’s most efficient. It’s the same reason the engine revs high on cold starts, they need that to get to temp ASAP, to ensure efficiency and emissions. Applying the same logic to WS fluid that was used in the old Dexron/Mercron days isn’t great logic. Transmissions now run hotter, but it’s a doubled edged sword. Too hot and you’re killing fluid, but too cold and the fluid isn’t doing it’s job at its highest potential to ensure the friction modifiers are preventing damage. This is where the thermostat works wonders. It was already designed in the system. We probably just removed it for cost, making assumptions that people didn’t actually need it.
     
  14. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:15 AM
    #134
    blanchard7684

    blanchard7684 New Member

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    I've done post mortem on failed transmissions on other trucks that had internal radiator cooler and aux cooler. The fluid was black, sooty, acrid, and the honest-to-God worst smell I've ever experienced. Same trucks had recent services and were fairly low miles.

    Heat generation can happen as failure progresses in a mechanical system. If excess friction exists it will create heat.

    There is alot of anxiety over the lack of aux cooler. So any transmission issue or failure is immediately thought to be uniquely and exclusively due to this change.

    From my observation I think this is the 3rd failure of an AB60F I've read about. One was a supercharged unit with similar symptoms as 327Tundra's.

    For me to get behind these failures as being caused exclusively by inadequate thermal management I would like to see

    • Higher failure frequency, with stronger correlation to warmer climates.
    • Higher frequency of posts complaining about hitting ATF temp alarm. In other words, lots of folks running up to temp limit of fluid.
    • Correlation back to a high failure frequency on 4.6, non towing, units (they didn't have aux cooler either).
    • Fluid analysis on failed units showing substantially different properties, particularly high acid number.
    • Teardown of hockey puck coolers to ensure that there isn't a defect that is causing lack of cooling. In fact to cover all the bases...ensure there is no cooling system defect like pluggage or loss of coolant.
    • (FYI there are/were some fantastic threads on this site on second gen forum of folks diagnosing some strange cooling system behavior that was traced to debris in the system causing a restriction in flow. One was left over parts from a dang radiator cap. Lesson learned--the 5.7 has a failure mode of cooling flow restriction from debris that generates inside the system.)
    • Teardown of failed units to find signs of thermal overload on parts
    • Teardown of failed units to find the proximate cause of failure--torque converter issue, pump issue, bearing/shaft, clutch/band issue, planetary/sun gear issue, valve body or control solenoid failure (that lead to shifting or lock up out of normal parameters...)
    • Overall the failure could be design related or manufacturing related. Differentiating is important.

    On top of all of this, I'm not aware of even a TSB or SSM from Toyota indicating they are aware of an issue with lack of ATF cooling causing some transmission failures. OEM's will typically send out messages simply indicating they are aware of the problem and are working on a solution.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
  15. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:26 AM
    #135
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    Don’t know if that referred to me, but my trans in my SC 2010 failed at just under 60k. They put in a reman that was also replaced soon after I traded it in. I posted about it in one of these threads.
     
  16. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:27 AM
    #136
    blanchard7684

    blanchard7684 New Member

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    Nope...but thanks for the follow up...there was a fellow recently that complained about a transmission failure fairly soon after putting SC on and he too was concerned about transmission temps.
     
  17. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:32 AM
    #137
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    Before it had issues, my original one wouldnt go over 210 even driving fast with the SC, and get up to 220/230 while towing. The reman one they put it would run 240/250 not towing. The atf light would come on a lot. This was when it came on around 255 I think.
     
  18. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:33 AM
    #138
    blanchard7684

    blanchard7684 New Member

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    And that is with an aux cooler?
     
  19. Mar 20, 2021 at 8:41 AM
    #139
    timsp8

    timsp8 Member

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    I had the stock cooler that was integrated in the condenser.
     
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  20. Mar 20, 2021 at 9:46 AM
    #140
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Mother-Loving Member

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    I agree with your post but I think the argument folks will have with respect to this point specifically is that the alarm point is higher than the temperature at which the fluid starts to degrade. I'm not sure how hard it would be to prove that, though.

    I do remember the posts from the guy who had towed heavy with his Tundra for upwards of 30k miles (can't remember the exact distance) and noticed that his fluid was black. However, when he sent it to Blackstone, I don't believe they found anything of concern with respect to its properties vs new ATF.
     
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  21. Mar 20, 2021 at 11:58 AM
    #141
    RyeHog

    RyeHog New Member

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    Are we not on the same forum? I swear I see 1 of these posts a day, “cruise at 70mph not hauling anything and temps got to 230* wtf!!!”
     
  22. Mar 20, 2021 at 12:08 PM
    #142
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ So there I was.... Staff Member

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    Yes we are. I actually am a Toyota enthusiast and pay attention. That's what Bob pays us staff the big bucks for.

    Please link the posts/threads from owners of 2014-2018 trucks that are saying this.
     
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  23. Mar 20, 2021 at 12:14 PM
    #143
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Mother-Loving Member

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    Those are all from people with 2019-2021s, aren't they?
     
  24. Mar 20, 2021 at 12:20 PM
    #144
    Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Addicted to petrified wood apparently

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    Fake news alert. 1 a day. Lol
     
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  25. Mar 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM
    #145
    timsp8

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    1 a day? Mine settles around 195 at 70 mph.
     
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  26. Mar 20, 2021 at 12:31 PM
    #146
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Mother-Loving Member

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    Want to trade? :p
     
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  27. Mar 20, 2021 at 4:59 PM
    #147
    Bakershack

    Bakershack Critical of Noncritical Thinkers

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    Thanks! But I hope you left the entertaining posts!
     
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  28. Mar 20, 2021 at 6:23 PM
    #148
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ So there I was.... Staff Member

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    Some of them. :D
     
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  29. Mar 20, 2021 at 6:52 PM
    #149
    Alex38

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    327,

    When you tow, do you typically drive in S4 or D? Also, do you use tow/haul mode? Did you notice any difference in trans temps in any of those configurations compared to others? Thanks!
     
  30. Mar 20, 2021 at 7:32 PM
    #150
    onesojourner

    onesojourner Here, let me derail that for you

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    I bet they Toyota math department did something like this:

    How many Tundras do we have driving in cold weather that will have problems = X
    How many Tundras do we have being used as trucks that will over heat and have a problems = Y
    What will it cost to fix X + (What will we save by not putting tranny coolers in)= C
    What will it cost to fix Y = U
    Is U higher than C = no
    Remove the transmission cooler.

    Capitalism at it's finest.
     
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