Trouble Shooting a No Start issue

Hello 1st Gen Tundra Owners,

I'm happily a new member of this forum and a relatively new owner of a 2000 Tundra TRD. I bought it about 1 year ago from an elderly gentleman in our neighborhood who bought it brand new from the dealership 24 years ago and had it religiously maintained at the dealership. It was a surprise birthday present for my 16 year old son. We replaced the timing belt together (it had 190K miles and the last timing belt replacement was done at 92K miles according to records). And, for the last year, It's been awesome!

However....

Last week it suddenly failed to start. It will crank and crank and crank, but wouldn't start for my son. He and his friends pushed into a Wal-Mart parking lot and the next day I went over and it fired right up for me. He drove it for a few more days and then it failed to start again. We towed it home and it still wouldn't start. long cranks with good crank speed. Occasionally it would act like it might start, but then it would not.

I had some old starter fluid lying around from old recreation equipment and I sprayed that down the throttle body and it fired up. As long as I continue to pulse spray starter fluid it will continue to run.

So....I think it is definitely a fuel management issue. I'm hoping the collective wisdom of this forum can help me narrow down the problem. I've done the usual internet reading. It seems that fuel pumps rarely go bad, but the fuel electronic control module is a part that fails??

For what it's worth, I can hear the buzz that I would typically associate with a fuel pump when we turn the key. I do not have any of the tools necessary to measure fuel pressure at the fuel rail (especially since this model does not have a Schrader valve on the fuel rail). I typically do the majority of my own mechanical work, but I also try to know when it's time to take a vehicle to the pros (usually when I don't have necessary tools or when it's an area of the car that in the process of fixing one thing you are likely to break 2 other things).

If I need to tow it to a mechanic I will, but I'd like to check routine failure points first.

Thank you in advance for your advice, wisdom, and grace!

 

Please confirm you properly routed the crank position sensor and it is not chafed by the serpentine belt. That is a common reason for a no start condition a while after changing the TB.

 

I had a similar issue (engine not starting sometimes, and would crank right up other times). When it ran, it ran well. Turned out to be a cam position sensor.

 

Fuel pump shouldn't buzz when turning the key. Fuel circuit is only setup to deliver fuel in one of two situations:

• The key is in the START position (i.e. cranking, not just the ON position)
• The Crank Position Sensor (which is situated at ~4 o'clock behind the crank pulley/harmonic balancer) is sending a signal to the ECU that says the engine is running.

As a new owner, I'd direct you to our community help/info thread: https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/

I'm pointing you to it for two reasons:

1. There is a note in there for V8 owners (you failed to say if yours is V6 or V8), some people fuck up when doing the timing belt - which is required every 9-10yrs or 90-100k miles if using OEM parts or half that with aftermarket, which I think you clearly know - and they mis-route that sensor's wire such that it gets rubbed by a pulley, and suddenly, with no crank position signal to the ECU to say the engine is running, it won't kick up the fuel pump. Here's what such a rub-out looking like (pic) and the correct behind the bracket is here. There's also a similar problem with camshaft position sensor under the driver cam cover, where the belt will rub through (pics) or sometimes people pinch its wires with the water pump, which should be changed at the same time as the belt (along with the radiator).
2. There are a ton of known leaks in these trucks, a couple of which will send water into the in-dash fusebox, or the ECU, either would cause your issue. Occasionally, water trails down harnesses into the ECM behind the glovebox (pics, pics), or the in-dash fusebox (pics & pics & pics) it happens a LOT. There's the rodent issues mentioned in that thread, they like to nest on top of the tank and chew up wires.

 

I'll check that tonight. Of course, I believe I did it correctly a year ago. But if that is a common failure point, I'll drop the engine guard and check tonight. Report back tomorrow.

 

Thank you for the pictures of common failure points. I can dbl check all of that tonight.

 

Also, check fuses, especially the EFI1 fuse in the fuse box next to the battery.

You should be able to look down from the top of the engine and see it. Two options, using that pic I linked for reference:

1) Look at where the harness attaches onto and passes by the side of the driver cam cover then disappears below it; trace it down, make sure it becomes invisible behind the bracket. You may be able to see this looking diagonal from the battery
2) Trace the fan to its clutch, then to its bracket; find the bolt securing that bracket, just above that metal pipe. Make sure the harness drops BEHIND that bracket

You'll know very quickly if that's what happened, if the harness is out, it's potentially nicked. PS - also note the base of the sensor, again, at 4 o'clock on the crank pulley of this picture.

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I checked the routing of the crank position sensor wire. It looks exactly as it should (behind the fan clutch bracket).

I tested the EFI relay and the Fuel Pump Relay. Both good.

pulled the EFI 1 fuse. It was good.

not sure where to look for the cam position wire. Is it being cut into by the serpentine belt? Or by the timing belt? Everything looked good from where it exits the driver side cam cover. But do I need to pull the cover and look underneath?

 

If you jump the fuel pump relay, will it start?

 

May have over looked but during all this, do you have a CEL(Check Engine Light)denoting a code generated.

Going forward, it's important to know for a number of reasons, V6 or V8 since the V6 cam sensor is on passenger side and V8 is on driver side.

 

Bryan/bfunke has a great Q about trying to jump the fuel pump. More info in the video I'll post after this reply giving you the other info you asked for.

And to Bubba's point, we really need to know whether it's a V8 or V6. If you have the V8, the cam position sensor is behind the driver timing cover. This is where its wire pokes thru the cover (1st pic), and the actual sensor itself where it reads the cam (2nd pic). But note, sometimes the wires get pinched by the water pump during water pump/timing belt service (3nd pic) and the truck won't start, or they get rubbed by the cam/belt (4th pic) because it also isn't properly tucked away, and it won't start (I'd expect a code in these last two cases, but it hasn't always been reported)

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And wire nicks from belts on the cam position sensor, rendering it partially functional/non-functional:

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Fuel pump diagnostics, although I will tell you, these may vary by engine and by year, and there's one tidbit of misinfo in here, in that the fuel pump is NOT energized when he says it is (i.e. in ON position, only in START):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoerlgT8pck

 

Thank you for the quick replies. I forgot to add that it is the 4.7 V8. I always forget this.

Also, I forgot to add that there is No check engine light.

I'll try jumping the relays today. both of them test good, but jumping them is easy to do and eliminates one more possibility. One question on that. One of the relays (I don't remember if it was the labeled Fuel Pump or the one labeled EFI) had a double position relay. Or I should say, the controlled side of the relay had three legs. When the relay was not energized two of the legs have continuity. When it is energized the one leg is dropped and the other is picked up. Not sure what / why this relay cycles.

I can pull the drivers cam cover tonight and ensure the Cam position sensor wire isn't pinched or rubbed behind there. The crank position sensor wire is correct (I confirmed last night). I remember routing the Cam Position sensor wire last year when we did the timing belt simply because it was a bit of a pain to thread through the housing and clip back in at the stage that we chose to do that at during re-assembly. But, again, I'm certainly not too proud to double check (especially on common failure points). The pictures you have included are invaluable. If something is wrong, it tends to stand out, but if it is correct I can be looking at it for a while and wondering what "wrong" would look like. Thank you for the clear pictures showing what correct and incorrect look like.

Shifty, you indicated that the fuel pump should not be energized simply by the key being in the "run" position. Rather, it gets the signal from one of two places 1) the key in the "start" position, or 2) the crank position sensor pulse signal. I believe you. That leaves me trying to track down the faint buzzing noise that is produced when the key is in the on position but the engine is not running.

Also, tonight I can run through the video on Fuel Pump diagnostics. I wish I had fuel rail pressure gauge, that answers the final and most important question instantly (ie is the fuel rail pressure correct), but I don't. And even if I did, I'm sure I would buy the gauge for the Schrader valves (because that is so easy and common) (one more time of me lamenting that there is no Schrader valve on the fuel rail of this truck, and so I won't be buying any new tools).

Thank you all again! I'll report back.

 

Jumped the fuel pump relay and listened back by the tank. No sound. Tried to start it with the fuel pump relay jumped and no change.

I think my local ORielly auto parts store might “rent” a universal fuel pressure gauge kit. I’ll go for that next.

gotta be honest…I’m tempted to simply crack a banjo bolt on the fuel rail and then jump the pump relay and see if any fuel comes out. Same thing while cranking; see if any fuel comes out.

 

Exactly what I would do.

Also try giving the bottom of your fuel tank a whack with a rubber hammer.

That was how I diagnosed my fuel pump failure.

 

Some notes about this:

• Coming from 40ish years of experience with wrenching: Fuel pumps rarely just "die". If the fuel pump isn't kicking on due to imminent failure, you can usually slap the tank several times to jostle it into firing up again and working until the next stop.
• Some fuses are linked to fuel delivery, it's important to check all fuses, remembering that 'Fuel pumps rarely just die'.
• I'll remind again: Rodents love nesting on top of the fuel tank, chewing up the soy-based wire casings like this, killing the pump (no start), and chewing up the tank tubes/plastics like this, causing EVAP codes. There's an easy-ass check for this, use a mirror.
• The wires to the fuel pump are in a harness bundle that pass precariously close to where the bed mounts to the frame, and have been known to get pinched/rubbed, and eventually wear through; this can happen at the factory and take 15-20 years to finally wear thru. Get under the truck and inspect the harnesses while looking for rodent activity.
• I don't remember if it's covered in that video, but that same wire harness bundle passes under the driver door sill, providing direct access to the fuel pump power wire, where you can potentially provide direct(ish) power to the pump, or test for contiuity/short, but it requires cutting OEM harnesses which I loathe
• It'd be helpful to know if you're getting 35psi pressure (minimum viable I'd like to see) to the rail, but note that having fuel pressure at start DOES NOT mean the fuel pump is good, always test for pressure under RPMs at 1,000 or more to validate the pump isn't slowly dying
• Loose quick connect fuel lines can detract from pressure, but you usually smell gas in that case.
• The ECU will stop the fuel pump from pumping in certain cses, like, the engine has ceased to run, i.e. the crank position sensor is failed, its harness got nicked by a belt, or it's disconnected, thus the ECU thinks the engine isn't rotating. It does this to avoid burning the truck to the ground during accidents etc.

 

Sorry for the silence, I was sidelined last week with other items.

Quick update: I have checked and double checked the wiring and power supplies and in the end, I'm dropping the fuel tank this weekend and replacing the pump.

With the videos and wiring diagrams that you have supplied (thank you everyone, especially shifty), I was able to check everything relevant. Because replacing a fuel pump is expensive and real PITA, I even cut into the wiring harness as it goes back through the cab en-route to the fuel pump.

I did two things there:

1) I checked to ensure that power was indeed present when the engine was cranking. Absolutely. Powered up right when we cranked. No power when the key is in the on position (again, shifty is absolutely correct there). So power is present when it is supposed to be.

2) Just to be thorough, I supplied power directly to those cut wires going directly to the fuel pump. Nothing. I cracked a banjo bolt on the fuel rail and nothing came out. One video suggested reversing the power back and forth to try to break the pump free. I did that. Nothing changed.

We have not seen evidence of rodent damage yet. But when we drop the tank I will ensure there is good power supply at the tank connection as well.

This weekend I will be dropping the fuel tank. What a PITA, but I'm glad I was able to test up to this point.

I'll also be splicing those wires back together.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Its pretty easy. The harness is long enough you can fully rest the tank on the ground before having to disconnect the power lines. It's no harder than most other simple repairs.

The only issue you may run into, is if the fuel tank strap bolts are seized. You can remove the tank by just nocking out the pins, but you can't put it back without loosening the bolts. If they look rusty, start soaking them in oil now.

Another issue is that to my knowledge, you can no longer get replacement Denso pumps for the v8.

I screwed up and put a Denso V6 pump in mine, but I've been driving it for several years now anyway.

 

Just a point, solder and heatshrink is king if it's internal to the vehicle, and if external to the vehicle, use a sealed connector, not a regular butt splice or worse. Always go with weatherproof connectors.

 

Ok. 2 quick questions:

1) It appears that Aerindel is correct, the original Denso fuel pump is not available. The dealership wants $490 for a pump (just the pump, not the anything else, just the 4 inch pump). That seems a bit ridiculous. Then I called Napa and they wanted $700. WHAT!?!?! I see A1Auto has one for $35. Parts geek has one for like $50. There are Denso pumps available for the V6 model. I think Aerindel said that he is using the V6 Denso Pump. What do you guys (collective wisdom) recommend?

2) It occurs to me that I've never done electrical connections inside the fuel tank before (I guess i've always had situations were all the electrical connections were still outside the tank). Is there a special grease or anything I need to put on that connection? I don't want to do anything that will cause a saftey issue with electrical components and fuel.

(oh and btw, that pump is definitely dead. good power supply right to the pump. hooked up a battery directly to the pump and nothing. I believe that it probably is rare for a fuel to pump to simply suddenly die without warning. but that does appear to be the case for me.)

Thank you!

 

If you made the mistake of calling the parts counter directly, sure. Maybe $490.

Only a fool would walk into/call the dealership and ask them for a price directly. They'll always tell you the MSRP, and happily charge you that unless you have a parts agreement with them. There are ways you can legitimately and easily get that price down, 20%, 30%, sometimes as much as 60% off MSRP. Buying directly from Toyota at a discounted closer-to-wholesale price, and forcing a dealership to fulfill delivery of the part. We have a sticky thread covering it. Shoot me your VIN in a PM, I'll look your stuff up.

That'd be a mistake. That's a 2-3 hour job changing out the pump, and aftermarket part quality is shit. The reason the part is cheaper is because they don't do quality control on it - you, the consumer are the quality control department - so its not unheard of to get dead parts right out of the box. But beyond that, aftermarket parts these days are only engineered to be a kick-the-can, their lifespan is typically 2-5 years, tops. That's why they usually have a lifetime warranty.

I mean, reality is, you should be using a part that's direct fit, so there's no need. Fuel isn't naturally corrosive nor conductive in a way that would be hazardous.

 

No. Fuel is not conductive. There is nothing special done for the connections, they are not even liquid proof, they are just flooded in fuel. When you get it apart you will see the fuel level sender is just a circuit board completely exposed to the fuel for example.

I won't recommend the v6 pump....just because it's not the right one.....I ended up with it by accident trying to get the proper pump.

But......I've been using it for like 10K miles with no noticeable issues. It does have slightly different dimensions but not anywhere that matters for the install and the connections were the same.

I think there is a Delphi pump that is like $200 that would be what I would have probably used if I had known the denso I was getting was for the V6.

Of course, at all that, I haven't found any reason to re-do the pump either....I don't know how to balance the wrong denso pump, against a right aftermarket....

 

There is a Delphi pump available from parts geek for $187. Maybe that's the route I should go. If Denso isn't making the pump anymore, it makes you wonder what the dealership is using.

 

Done. Thank you.

 

Whatever you buy, make sure it's something plug-and-play, so you don't need to splice wires.

And if you can't find anything that goes in without splicing wires, make sure you use sealed (weatherproof, self-sealing) splices.

 

Ok, so based on your VIN, here's the exact page of the EPC for your truck dealing with fuel pump, I removed the VIN so you're not flashing it to everyone: https://toyota-usa.epc-data.com/tundra/uck40/3802/engine/2211/

This is the fuel pump part number:

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Toyota's MSRP price on that pump is, in fact, $429.

When I go to my preferred dealer to order it, a dealer that will ship to your door for free and won't charge you tax if you live outside of Alabama (link here), your price out the door for brand new OEM, is $296.

Now, if these guys participate in a national sale on Labor Day, as Toyota usually has each year, you can get another 15-25% off this price (NOTE: National sale discounts aren't reflected until you reach the Checkout page), so you could potentially pay as little as $222 if the Labor Day sale this year is another 25% off sale. Even if it's only a 15% off sale, that part is only $252.

NOTE: If you can give me a zip code within 5-10 miles of you (doesn't have to be your actual zip code, just one nearby), I can check for dealers within 30-60 minutes of that zip code and tell you if any have it for under $350, when buying via the national site.

PS - as you see in the parts diagram, there are some bits you'll need to transfer over during install

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Wrapping up this post.

Resolved: Fuel pump is replaced and the truck starts right up.

Original Symptom: My son and his friends were driving around. Parked in a Wal-Mart parking lot. When they came back out (only a few minutes), it wouldn't start. Not knowing what to do (and feeling the guilt of constantly having the fuel tank basically empty), they pushed it to the pumps (this Wal-Mart has fuel) and filled the tank. It still did not start. They called me (I was visiting a family member in the hospital that night, so the face time call was rushed and hushed to say the least), and over face time I did my best to coach them through checking fuses and trying to use starter fluid. None of that worked. I later found out that someone had told them to use brake cleaner instead starter fluid....I hate that idea, but I guess people will try that too. Anyway, it did not start for them, and I wasn't really sure how thoroughly they were able to follow my instructions.

I wasn't able to go get the vehicle for about 24 hours, but when I did finally get there, it started right up for me. Now we had an intermittent problem, ugh. He drove it for about a week before it failed to start again and from then on it never started again. This next detail may or may not be important. We've owned the truck for about a year. Occasionally, the truck would take an extra long crank before starting. This only happened to me once. Not really sure how often my son experienced it, but it sounded like about twice a month. It always started, but twice a month it would crank for about double the normal time.


Recounting the steps I took: 1st: I checked fuses and relays myself. All Good. I then used actual starting fluid and it fired right up. Ran on starting fluid, but only on the starting fluid. That is when I started googling and found this forum (was trying to see what the common causes are for failure of fuel delivery on this truck, after all at this point every common problem should be well documented for this truck). With the advice and help from this forum (I read the thread on becoming a 1st gen owner), I checked all the normal items (wire from crank position and cam position sensor, fuses, relays, etc). All of those were exactly as they should be on my truck. I then posted this thread, and with the help of you all, I was able to double check with pictures to guide me and very specific advice. I tried reversing the polarity of the pump, I tried hitting the fuel tank with a hammer, I tried looking at the top of the tank to confirm the wires were in good shape. Nothing helped. Nothing was out of the ordinary. I did not think that it would be a fuel pump (those things never die anymore.....or so I thought). While it’s true that fuel pumps rarely die, and even more rare for them to die suddenly, that is exactly what it felt like happened this time (maybe the occasional long cranks were a very ambiguous warning sign). Through follow up posts and great responses, I was able to test power supply nearly all the way back to the tank itself. That was the clincher for me. Definitely a fuel pumping problem. Dropped the tank and tested the pump directly. Problem confirmed. The fuel pump could not be convinced to spin.

Thank you: Thank you to everyone that chimed in. Your advice was spot on.

The photos of common trouble spots where very useful (even though that wasn’t my problem, it was very useful to rule those out quickly).

Wiring diagrams were extremely helpful.

And links to videos were great as well.

Dropping the fuel tank always sucks (especially when it’s full). I don't want to drop the tank on a hunch. It was extremely helpful to be able to test the circuitry all the way from the engine to nearly the pump itself before committing to dropping the tank.

Shifty, thank you for general expertise and your help getting a genuine Toyota part at a closer to wholesale price. Can’t thank you enough.

 

Super glad you got it sorted, and with OEM parts! Enjoy that pump working for the next 20 years! And hopefully the thread highlight the cam & crank position sensor "common mistakes" that lend to similar symptoms.

I will say, this one is pretty classic for fuel pump. When reading it this way, versus the way it was written in your 1st post, I instantly though, "FUEL PUMP!"

But it also matches pretty closely with wire-rub thru on those two sensors, and the fact you mentioned doing the timing belt recently ... "SENSOR RUB THRU!"

Just goes to show you, persistence pays. Glad you stuck with us through it! Hopefully swapping the pump wasn't too painful with 125-150lbs of fuel in the tank

 

Hindsight is 20/20. Now that I know it’s the fuel pump, suddenly occasional long cranks seem relevant. Before that, it was easy to dismiss as an old truck doing old truck things. and….i didn’t fully understand the frequency of the long cranks (it is my sons vehicle).

I also couldn’t be sure what happened in that Wal-mart parking lot. Basically, the crank position and cam position sensor wiring or a bad relay seemed much much more likely to me at the time.