Gun Flagging

Yeah, Id ask for a refund and not go back. Nothing more to say than what has been already said. Curious though. In your paragraph 2 you said he/they would keep the trigger pulled to the rear after firing a couple of shots. That is just ridiculously stupid. Makes no sense. Do they fire shots somewhere before going in and clearing a building on a swat call. Yeah stay away from this guy. Hugh red flags with a high chance of accidental shootings. I don't understand why anyone is pushing on anyone with their muzzle unless he's striking them with it, but why. Fingers should stay off the trigger until ready to fire. I question his credentials based on what your describing. What's his age range. Wished you provided the name of the class, him or more info. He should be able to teach a class without flagging them. Wandering what he was trying to demonstrate.

 

Nope. Every class I've been to, even with "super tactical" guys, go through all the clearing/checking/verifying, and then still make it a point to never, ever break any of the four safety rules.

 

Being a SWAT guy is no exemption from following the four fundamental firearms safety rules at all times.

 

Sounds like an ass-hat.

The last class I was able to attend was with Pat McNamara formerly of 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta. Before that various USMC training while I was in the infantry, and tour of Iraq in 2004.

At no point in any of those experiences did we train to flag each other with the muzzle. That’s just stupid shit.

What we did train on obsessively was knowing the status of your weapon, controlling the muzzle so you’re not accidentally flagging your team, and operating the safety to the “on” position anytime we weren’t on the sights or presenting the weapon to a target that is getting engaged. Particularly important is operating that safety until it becomes a subconscious level task. This last point really being drilled by PatMac, as a mandatory level of competence for a trained gun handler.

 

@Tripleconpanna

 

While I don't really agree with flagging on purpose, it seems he still made the point to clear and double check safety prior to practicing certain drills. He wasn't flagging with a hot weapon. Not sure what level course this was but like someone mentioned, take the good and incorporate it into your own training and tactics. Don't need to get judgmental as many are doing.

While I'm not sure I would adopt his tactic, it's an interesting perspective. That in CQC in an active gunfight, that could make sense not knowing if you need to continue with lethal force or step down or create space from the assailant as he seems to be describing.

The second part where they are working on stance and pushing back on your barrel or muzzle seems pretty standard to me. Not sure what the big deal is as long as they cleared all weapons and aren't purposely putting their face at the tip of your barrel. But standing in front off to the side and working on stance seems reasonable to me.

If the course besides these controversial areas focused on the fundamentals as well, not sure if I would be that alarmed. I'm all for learning from a variety of courses. Good on you for getting out there. Too many gun owners either collect and never shoot, or sit at the flat range and pat themselves on the back for shooting well. I think courses like this push us, stress us so we understand where we need to improve and help us understand the realities of surviving gunfight. I find myself going to these courses to learn, but also to see how stress and pressure affect your ability to shoot and make decisions.

 

I wouldn't be attending a class like that at all. Hard pass.

 

Common sense should dictate why this was all bad. So many of these courses are full of ego driven people who want to pretend like they reinventing the wheel and impress everyone. These are the building blocks of becoming lackadaisical enough to feed into a safety-related incident happening, and then act all shocked that it happened. Theres a reason why they make blue guns for training, and the premise of being that loose with a trigger to bypass the safety for speed is insane. Maybe if you were going house-to-house in Falluja, but even still. Bullets have names, and you can’t take them back once there’s an accident.

 

To be clear, it's nothing personal with this guy in particular; I'm sure were I to sit there and pay close attention to everything he taught, there'd be much we'd all agree with.

That being said, when the guy goes on about swat this and engagement that and purports to be an SME...and violates literally the FIRST rule of owning/utilizing a firearm, one that NO other person (expert or otherwise) has or would ever advocate violating.....it makes it VERY tough to take anything else he says seriously.

This I agree with 100%. I'm no expert and would never purport to be, but one thing I think we all agree with is that you're NEVER done training, and that the reason we do so is because often when we are caught in a situation, training is the ONLY thing we might have to fall back on.

 

As a "certified instructor" for many years and someone who has worked in Federal LE in the military, yeah, NO! Find another training center.

 

Sounds like the instructor was a doucharoo, IMO. His practices in a civilian training environment for a scenario that 99.9% of people will never be in tells me he's just trying to win "cool points." Like many have said, don't aim your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.

 

The "variety of sources" thing is good and fine when it comes to grip or stance or maybe one guy suggests you do footwork a different certain way vs. another. Spreading Clearly bad knowledge about the safety basics hurts us all as 2a advocates. Every high profile accident it leads to provides ammo (pun intended) that gets used against our cause.

 

Apparently, we are talking 'bout flags so just kidding...

Not sure why anyone would really want my input on this, but here's my .02 (sorry but someone tagged me on this post)

I think we kinda need to compartmentalize the issues/concerns here and in all fairness play a little devil's advocate, so here we go...

First off, let's start w/pointing firearms at people in a classroom environment... Does this happen in a LE or Military setting at times and during certain training scenarios and protocols? Yes, it does. These items are called barrel blocks or chamber tools and are usually used to indicate a 'safe' weapon... By safe, I mean the weapon has been properly downloaded, physically and visually inspected by the shooter, and usually at least the person to his left and person to his right; a safety officer would then work their way through the group, conduct another check of the weapon and 'install' the barrel block. Also during the safety brief and staging of the training, everyone involved (including instructors, safety officers, shooter and role players are thoroughly search for any magazines and any live ammunition. All magazines and live ammo are secured in a locked room or locked in the trunks of the participant's vehicles and they are denied any access to them until the scenario and their participation in the event is concluded.







These types of training scenarios usually take place during large scale training exercises where multiple groups are going through the scenarios and you're wanting people to handle their own weapons as opposed to blue guns or you're wanting them to not have to wear the typical required PPE during force on force or Simunition based training.

In these types of training environments, yes weapons get pointed at people. But, also understand that the layers of safety control measures put into place are significant and absolute; students are not allowed to leave the staging areas once they've been cleared to participate and their weapons have been made safe; all live ammo and magazines are secured locked in another location (outside of the scenario); instructor/safety officer to student, participant, and roll players is abnormally high; and secondary checks and searches are performed prior to the start of each scenario.

Is this an 'absolute' in terms of a safe environment?? No; there is no such thing when handling training around weapons.
Why would we do this instead of just using blue guns or sims?? As stated, students are able to manipulate their own weapon systems (slings, accessories such as lights, optics, etc) which are often found to be inefficient or incorrectly set up during this type of scenario based training; many of these issues are not discovered on a static flat range. Hell, many guys find that their optic is entirely too close to their face the first time they look through a full-face mask (CBRN type) and try to pick up their red dot through the mask. These 'set up' flaws would not discovered w/blue guns or generic 'training' weapons.

Even w/all these layers of redundancy, do accidents still happen, and do people still get hurt?? Yes

So, in contrast, let's compare that to a situation where we now have a mixture of experience, backgrounds and expectations within the training environment as I'm guessing is what occurred. As depicted, I can understand why someone would feel uncomfortable about having a weapon pointed at them. Hell, with all the combat veterans that we now have (some of whom are struggling w/PTSD, etc.) can you imagine how easy it would be for someone within that setting to snap and lose their shit?? I wasn't there, so I have to assume that many of the control layers (safety protocols) were not put in place prior to the exercise and even worse it seems like the students had no idea that was going to be part of the curriculum; all of which makes for uncomfortable students and potentially unsafe conditions in the training environment. IMO not ideal for a diverse class setting that you described. I'm guessing it was done for shock value (and more so for marketing over accomplishing the process of making a lasting training impression)...

For @snivilous ... you clearly were not comfortable w/how that played out, and I know you're not new to weapons and not a timid person. So, trust your instincts and seek training elsewhere. With that being said, if you didn't address the instructor privately and express your concerns you may consider doing so. Lots of good instructors become misguided along the way (usually in an attempt to be better or more marketable) and maybe someone having an intelligent and honest conversation w/him might at least get him thinking about his presentation and approach to training; if not, it doesn't hurt anything but cost you a little time.

Lost of folks in here commented on the 'laser' rule or 'always keeping the muzzle in a safe direction' rule w/'absolution', so I'm going to challenge you just a bit and ask something a little unpopular.... Do any of you carry concealed?? If you do, do you ever conduct live fire drills from a concealed position, and if so do you re-holster while the weapon is still hot?? If you answered yes to all of those questions, I'm guessing that during the process of re-holstering a hot weapon you cover some point of your body w/the muzzle of your own weapon (it's nearly impossible not to)... I understand that you're being as safe as possible in doing so; weapon on safe, finger off the trigger and outside of the trigger guard, all clothing and such clear from the holster as you secure the weapon.... but, if you are re-holstering a hot weapon, you're likely violating that rule to a small degree at least. So, my point here is simply to be careful w/absolutes if you're doing real world training; as the training gets more life-like the risks will increase. Now, I understand there are many folks that will remove the holster, from their person, secure the weapon in the holster, then place the holster on their person to mitigate the manipulation of the weapon as it's secured on their person; and yes this does mitigate some of that covering of yourself w/the muzzle, but even holstered I'm guessing most folks would be covering at least a small part of themselves during the process... just food for thought....

There's been a bit of an industry shift over the last couple of years w/instructors using sims for training; again force on force training w/Simmunitions is some of the best training you can participate in given the chance. But, we are seeing a significant drop on their use by instructors outside of law enforcement and military. Some of that is cost of the equipment (it's costly), but the bigger reason is a shift in the insurance industry. Many instructors who had been using Simmunitions during training have been told over the last couple of years that they will be dropped from coverage if they continue to conduct training using any kind of projectiles fired at a person (it's an automatic disqualifier for coverage)... This dynamic is forcing instructors to find other ways of giving their students a realistic training experience. It certainly doesn't excuse poor training, but maybe it will help some folks understand what's happening out there.

Okay, let's move on to the whole trigger thing... During a critical incident (especially for non-seasoned folks) cognitive thinking and fine motor skills start to diminish and gross motor skills and training take over. If you have achieved some form of muscle memory by having completed several hundred reps of pressing your trigger in a certain way; there is no way that a few reps of something new will ever over-ride your first learned and most practiced methods of manipulating a trigger. So, I agree that this is probably a shock value 'let me show you and tell you about some cool shit' pitch. Unless you were to practice this 'new' technique for several hundred reps and ceased to ever manipulate the trigger the way you previously did, your first learned and most heavily practiced technique will always override the new 'high speed gucci shit' that you just learned.... the nuances of learning through Operant Conditioning are well established and conducting 'extinction' training to learn a new method is difficult and time consuming.

Onto the whole muzzle punch thing...

My belief is that if you have 'it' instinctually built into you (the heart, drive, and desire to win the fight no matter what) or it's been trained into you through life experiences and training, driving the muzzle of your weapon through someone's teeth if necessary is probably going to occur naturally. Some of this sounds like the instructor may have been trying to make sure students established a solid fighting base w/their shooting platforms, which there is a strong point to; but there is also a much better way to demonstrate it, teach it and test it during the training.... IMO

Good instructors will always ask for feedback. Do yourself, the instructor and future students a favor and take a few minutes to provide good feedback to ANY training you attend. Make some quick notes to yourself on your phone immediately, think about what transpired and then call or email the instructor and provide feedback to the class. You pay good money for training and your opinion should count and matter to any instructor that cares about his/her business.

I think this was already said, but most really good instructors are going to spend a TON of time on basics and drills; those are the tools they are giving you because that's what improves your skills and those drills are the tools you can take with you and build reps on. Do the drills precisely each and every time and don't worry about speed; speed will come w/time. Try to avoid completing non-perfect reps...

EX>> Let's say you get a new optic on your pistol and you're at the range working on presentation and acquiring the dot (optic) properly. If you draw, build your 2-hand grip, and as you punch out you're not seeing your optic properly as you start to line up w/your target, don't swirl the weapon around and hunt for a good sight picture and then squeeze a round off once everything lines up. Immediately reverse the process and re-holster or bring the weapon back to your chest and start over; practice doesn't make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect For example, this usually happens because the weapon is being punched out below your natural line of sight and point of aim. So, adjust your presentation and punch out higher within your line of sight until each time you punch the weapon out you're able to immediately pic up the red dot (several reps of this), then add the next step (aligning the dot w/the target) *** remember as you present your weapon, you should already be focusing on your target and bring the weapon into your natural line of sight picking up either the red dot, front sight or complete sight picture as required *** again numerous reps until you can't get it wrong, then add the last which is a smooth steady trigger press while maintaining your sight picture (don't forget to control the recoil and have proper follow through), then re-holster or reset and do it again. Much range time should be spent working basics and not spending rounds; these are the types of sequences and focuses that you will see from good instructors, plus some impromptu problem solving for some of the folks in the group...

Crap, I'm tired and it's time for bed... Please forgive my typos and grammar on this one, but I hope it makes sense and sheds a little light on both sides of the fence

 

Awesome post, very much appreciated and lots of good points.

 

Guys a jackwagon, I have walked out of training classes because the instructors kept sweeping the students.
Blue or orange training guns, 100% of the time is the only way to do this correctly.