General Supercharger Thread

Talks to TVS vs Twin screws at 23 mins also contradicts what the other video says of twin screws being more efficient than centrifugal.
38 mins he compares roots vs screw:

https://youtu.be/ScVSePI6xGw?t=1400

 

Definitely. I guess what I’m saying is all of our magnuson bros could benefit from finding a way to incorporate an IAT sensor post blower. I know I’ve seen old posts about it having been done before on Facebook but I don’t know the details. I believe the guys from Prospeed know how to do it since they were the ones who did it on a customers truck. They may even offer a kit of sorts to make the conversion but it’s not something advertised on their website.

 

Probably comes out in the tune to compensate for the added heat. Maybe a richer AFR.

Be curious to hear the rationale from Magnuson; probably a very predictable temp increase based on the formula posted earlier.

 

Not to be too critical of them, I’m just calling this as I’ve seen it so far in my
Brief time researching on ye old interwebs. This is not a rant but an observation. BUT, I gotta say the whipples seem like all show and no go on everything I read from tundras, to LS platforms, to hellcats. I haven’t seen anyone that dyno tested a 2650 and a Whipple 2.9 or even larger on the same car that the Whipple made more power on the same boost. If you google TVS2650 vs Whipple 2.9 and get to reading the results that pop up, they’re mostly all the opposite. Everything I’m reading puts the Whipple 2.9 more on the plain of the TVS2300 in real world results. It reminds me of Ford truck advertising.

If anyone can find any back to back testing on the contrary please share. If anyone can show me 1, I can probably find 3 that show the opposite. The plural of anecdote is data.

I just find it interesting that the internet screams twin screw is superior, but I’ve yet to see proof in real world results. Maybe Kenne Bell superchargers are better than whipples and actually produce the expected results, but I don’t know much about them.

 

Fair enough. I had my doubts it was better than the impeller/turbine design. Figure the twin screw (asymmetric screw design) vs TVS (symmetrical lobes) would be closer in efficiency but all the Whipple maps I'm seeing show them topping out at 65% efficiency or so.

 

Supercharger pulls in 1kg of air, between the supercharger and the combustion chamber is 0.1m^3 of volume for the air. Your density is 10kg/m^3 of air. How does that density change if you change temperature? Your mass isn't changing, and your volume isn't changing. So the equation simplifies to P=T, more pressure is more temperature; nothing about density, volume, or mass is changing. Correct me if I'm wrong?

 

I was thinking about that yesterday by just tapping a hole into the side of the supercharger. I was thinking for a stand alone sensor more out of curiosities sake but I think there's only one or two MAF pins for temperature so it'd be easy to run them over to that sensor.

What kind of sensor does the Harrop use? Is it a run of the mill coolant temperature sensor or something else?

 

Not sure exactly. I bet you could buy the sensor and harness (possibly faulty ) from Harrop and it would be plug and play aside from determining a mounting location.

 

It's their own sensor as far as I can tell but there is a break out loom. Trying to find the part on their site:

 

Mustang crew back when we all had kenne bells then switch the Whipples. They both ran well. Same boost the whipple made more power but this was on that platform.

I think that 2650 is a great blower. But hard to deny the data and cooler temps of the whipple. Guess we will see when his comes in lol. I’ll be sure to have the pulley on when we run lol

 

The early dyno posted on this forum showed the torque and hp come in late post 4K RPM. Numbers weren't too far from numbers Maggies and a Harrops are pulling. Seems like a great choice for drag racing from what's been show so far.

 

That’s definitely the case when I lined up before on a ported Eaton the smaller blower would take the hit but once huffin that whipple motored by. Now with a pulley on the whipple it would be over earlier.

 

Yeah I don't know what pully size they used on the dyno run. Here is the thread with the dyno run:
https://www.tundras.com/threads/whipple-supercharger-now-available.67347/

NM you're in that thread already! lol

 

I was thinking if I get a sensor and just hook it up and it measures the same as the MAF sensor that's an easy way to make sure they're doing the same thing.

 

Looks possible. Apples to Apples would be good.

Fueling would also shed light on efficiency differences.

 

@M3Tundra-JK Still considering a twincharged/compounded boost set up?

 

Okay so I wasn't convinced I was right, so after lots of braining and talking to my neighbor and drawing stuff I realized I wasn't right.

I was thinking the supercharger pumps so much air at a certain density, and after the intercooler there should be the same amount of air as before---essentially the mass variable in PV=nRT would be constant on both sides of the intercooler---but that's not true. Really the first few revolutions (at start up) of the supercharger (or turbo) are filling the "reservoir" of volume that is post intercooler with high density air. Once that reservoir is full, you now have high density and high pressure air, thus more oxygen and more power.

The mass flow rate is the same before and after the intercooler, but before the intercooler is a lot of less dense air flowing and after the intercooler is a little bit of high dense air flowing into a reservoir of high dense air (and that reservoir of high dense air is why the little bit of flow isn't allowed to expand drastically and decrease in density).

I don't know if that made any sense and probably doesn't matter to anyone, just one of those physics questions I had to work through to actually understand and sleep at night

 

I’m glad you doubted yourself. Please remove the day I told you to remember lol

 

Lol no, it was caveman moment

 

Shame. I need someone to compare notes with. Long term project.

 

@snivilous you might as well do it too lol.

 

So I just did this set up. @Silver17 was right about longer starts after it’s been sitting for a bit. But I found out if I back into my driveway (it’s sloped) it starts like normal. Even if it’s over night. But if it’s level or the front is higher than the back. It’ll take an extra second to start after is sits longer than 90 minutes or so. But I’m trying to find an adapter to eliminate the factory FPR, so I can run a return style. I may use the jumper from prospeed also and wire that to a switch. So can disable the jumper if I’m flashing the truck or at a drive in or something.

 

New "750" injectors from Prospeed are in and first drive everything seems right on the money, and I went from 100% duty cycle on the TRD 535s to 57%!

Lots to post here, hopefully @M3Tundra-JK and maybe @Fastlane47 and anyone else can alleviate some headaches.

This whole setup is kind of janky and honestly not at all impressed with Prospeed. The injectors come with like a 6" adapter for each injector, and besides having to also stuff all that shit in there I thought I'd be ugly so I just cut the new plug off the adapter and the old one off the harness and soldered them on. A little bit of time, but looks way better and fitment is probably nicer.



Now as if having 8x overly long adapters wasn't annoying enough, the actual plugs on the new injectors BARELY fit--and by barely, in some cases they don't seem to fit flat out. Prospeed actually cuts the plug bodies to try and make them more low profile, I know this because one of mine wasn't cut at all and then I realized you can see the two cut marks where there used to be a protective cover spanning the gap:



The fitment of the plugs is so horrible that after fighting awhile to get both rails to sit, I fired the truck up and had 4x misfire codes! This was because multiple plugs had been unseated, bent, parts cracked, etc when I was trying to "gently" tighten the bolts down. Here is one example of an injector I pulled out:



Here is a different injector, cylinder #2, the only injector you can really see when assembled and you can see both sides of the injector plug are touching something, so it's not like I didn't align something correctly, this just flat out didn't fit:



The "fix" was I took some flush cut pliers and the sections that Prospeed already cut I trimmed down completely flush with everything around it and then added little chamfer cuts on the edges. When I had pulled the rails it was obvious (plus I had the misfire codes) which injectors had major contact issues so it was evident I could trim a bit off the plugs to get them to clear. And then when I reassembled I was extra diligent to use a screw driver or my finger to try and shimmy the injectors as they were seating and ensure they had a bit of slop if possible. And then lastly I used a power tool battery and manually actuated each injector once I tightened the rail bolts to ensure none of the plugs had been forced off or broken. The rail plug has 8 pins in pairs of 2, each pair of 2 actuates an injector and the polarity doesn't matter, so just hot wire each pair of wires and move down the length and you'll hear them open.

Lastly, in HP Tuners there are two variables for injectors: injector constant and offset. Injector constant is a single value, and the consensus I've read is at least to start by scaling that from your previous settings. Mine were 535cc injectors with a constant of like .098, new ones are 715cc so .098*535/715 = .073 for my new injector constant and out the gate that seems dead on the money. The injector offset is a table and is the "dead head" chart, and all that means is what is the time delay for the injector to respond based on voltage. The TRD injectors had different voltages than what the Prospeed chart gave, so I just updated the HPT table to list the voltages Prospeed had and then just input the dead head exactly as Prospeed lists it (like 2.3 @ 8V or whatever). I assume the number is milliseconds? But HPT not Prospeed explicitly list the units, but it doesn't seem to matter, since again the truck is idling and running and WOT all felt and looked identical to the 535 injectors.

 

I'd be lying if it hadn't crossed my mind, mainly for consistent fueling of the rails.

 

First off awesome results with the larger injectors. Second what the actual fuck Prospeed. This is ridiculous especially for the cost of everything. This makes me really want to revisit my catch setup. ( I have apprehension with it in the first place).

The fact you did all the to make them work is awesome. What other solutions out there are available for us in that injector size?

 

I know DW has a 650cc option wonder if they can do a 750 hmm

https://deatschwerks.com/products/21ttx-00-0650-8?_pos=7&_sid=d9bf2c335&_ss=r

 

The entire issue is the world's largest plug, which I think is an EV1....? But I guess when I read "drop in injectors" I expect them to use the same slim style plug the OEM injectors use and not an adapter and then a trimmed injector, all just to barely fit.

All I can figure is this isn't an issue with a newer Magnuson or Harrop or Whipple and just the TRD?

 

Yea like those look straight up identical to the OEM ones and use the exact same plug, perfect!

 

What do we think the duty cycle would be if you ran the 650? Might be a safe bet for those running the 2.2 pulley and a 450 pump.

I wonder if the Prospeed rail would change the fitment? Doesn’t change the shitty plug mod etc but curious

 

I don't know how ProSpeed is when you go to the shop, I hear good things, but I feel like when you order parts from them they fall short. Not that it's a big deal, but the CAI I ordered from them had no instructions, again working on the truck it was easy to line everything up, but paying that kind of money I expected more. I ordered a pulley, injectors, CAI and added a RCF throttle body. I asked them if they would tune my truck, they said I had to buy their complete fuel system before they would tune the truck, they said unless you use their fuel rails the trucks will run lean. I haven't seen anything supporting that, but maybe they see it.