Second mass shooting in 24hrs

10 reported dead in Ohio this morning.

Stay armed my friends.

 

It’s nuts

 

There seems to be no shortage of natural born murderers.

 

In short, yes it is.

 

WTF?!?!

 

Pure hate is what’s drives these people

 

Good god not again.

 

Serious question here - I am NOT trying to start a fight, be political, or anything. I am simply curious: in all of these mass shootings, how many times has the shooter been stopped by a civilian who happened to be at the scene and was armed?

If my memory is correct, it usually ends with the shooter either shooting themselves, law enforcement shooting them, or them surrendering to law enforcement. There have been armed civilians present at many of these shooting incidents, and if I remember correctly, in none of the shootings did an armed civilian affect the outcome.

So, and again, not trying to be argumentative, I wonder about the logic of being armed. (I'm really "innocently" asking - in part because maybe I and some of my friends are even considering it, so, honestly not being judgemental.)

Do you think "I'd do it differently than they did - I'd shoot the guy", maybe be a hero that so far nobody else has managed to be? Or is it "if I had a gun it would serve as a deterrent?", i.e., there would have been more shooting incidents but others were avoided because both parties were armed?

As a response to these mass shooting events, what is the logic to being armed? (Leaving aside personal protection, robberies, etc. - just as a response to mass shootings.)

 

After UVA shooting there was a copy cat not far from it. They didn't get far as they were challenged by several good guys and disarmed before they killed anyone, if I'm not mistaken. That's one case I can remember, good guy wins doesn't make major headlines.

 

I think there's a misconception on both sides about what "good guy with a gun" means. In many (if not most) states that allow it, having a concealed carry gives you the opportunity to defend yourself and/or your family should you/they come under a life-threatening attack. It doesn't give you license to run in to a situation to try and save the day.

That being said, there are a LOT of people that end a potentially tragic, mass-casualty situation on their own. Like Moon said, they're just not highly publicized.

 

From what I can tell these situations are committed in areas that restrict the carry of firearms at that location. Example schools, shopping centers etc. Most law abiding gun owners are going to follow the law of what ever state they are in and not carry in a location where they are not permitted to.
I cannot recall the last time someone committed one of these acts in a area where carry was encouraged.

Hope my reply has not crossed a line.

 

You bring up some good questions i think.

I believe you are correct, most are either killed by cops or kill themselves when cornered.

I’ll bet there are far fewer people carrying concealed on a daily basis than even are issued permits. I don’t have data, but I’m thinking that on an average day, very few good guys are armed all day every day. But there have been cases where armed citizens kill the perp. The problem is the mainstream media does not want to report any instance where a good guy saves others with a gun. Not trying to stoke the flames either, this is just reality.

I also saw it correctly posted in the other thread that you don’t want to be mistaken as a second shooter. What if an off duty LEO hears shots, then sees you pull your ccw and he shoots you?

Thirdly, even if i had my gun on me in a mass shooter scenario, my first thought is finding cover for my family, then evacuating them, not hunting down the shooter.

I do personally believe that if a big % of the public carryed concealed, less of these events would happen. If all potential shooters KNEW that a random person would pop them quickly, some might not do it

 

The mistaken shooter thing has always concerned me. Being able to carry would be a double edged sword. You have the ability to defend yourself and those around you, but in a chaotic environment like an active shooter, I wouldn’t be surprised for any LEO to mistake you for the perp.

 

There have been recent documented cases of shooters being stopped by armed citizen(s). I’ll let you do the research.

I will say that being armed is about protecting you and your family first. I pray you, I, or anyone else is never in a situation like these recent victims where they were being gunned down and had an absolute disgusting feeling of being unable to defend themselves.

Think about an armed intruder in your home, and you have no way of protecting yourself. Imagine that level of helplessness.

I don’t carry a gun with the ideology that I will stop a mass shooting, but if the opportunity presents, I will protect other people.

 

As to why there hasn’t been more active shooters stopped by law abiding citizens:

A lot of these shootings have happened in gun free zones (we follow the law and don’t carry where the law says we can’t).

And Texas has something like 600,000 concealed license holders. Unfortunately, few people actually carry every day. It can be a hassle for most.

 

Thanks for all the thoughtful (and civil) responses so far!

So that sounds really great and rational. @Hbjeff mentioned that, too...but it doesn't seem to be the argument that many people use. If more people had guns then these mass shootings wouldn't happen, or would be stopped sooner. That's the part I'm trying to wrap my head around.

That is an aspect I hadn't really considered, so thanks for that... but (and I really do not have the actual facts at hand) I was thinking "a Walmart in Texas?" I mean, I see guns on peoples' hips at the Walmarts here in Arizona all the time. Is Texas more restrictive? Or Walmart policy in Texas? Also wasn't there a mass shooting on an actual military base?

I still feel like - again, lacking empirical facts - that if somebody is messed up enough to think killing a bunch of people is a good idea - and that they are probably going to die before it's over - that scouting out what the local ordinances on guns are to pick a softer target isn't high on the pre-attack to-do list.

So what I've heard a few times, I think, is that having a gun in a mass shooting scenario still is about *personal* protection more than stopping the shooter per se. You're thinking of it as "this thing is happening around me, I'm going to get me and my loved ones to safety. IF, and only if, the shooter impedes that then I have an option."

This isn't really how I had envisioned the logic, and I really appreciate everyone's responses. This makes a lot more sense to me than what I had been envisioning.

Lastly:

"Think about an armed intruder in your home, and you have no way of protecting yourself. Imagine that level of helplessness."

Right, I wanted to leave that scenario out of this particular discussion. I'm just curious about the mass shootings like the Walmart and such.

I need to get off the computer and get some work done around the house (and my Tundra!) so I'm signing off this thread for a while. Thanks again for the discussion.

 

Most of these mass shooters are the total losers of society. Mostly guys who can’t hack it in this world. Guys who don’t have the balls to try anything. I’ll bet none of them played competitive sports, which leads back to the parents....we should be blaming the parents of these younger shooters as well IMO.

We have beaten down masculinity as a culture. The problem for the left is that it is real and is in all males. When you don’t raise it and teach boys to be men, they don’t know how to use their masculinity for good. These shooters find a vulnerable population to unleash their feelings of inadequacy on.

Edit- my other thought, if they knew that 20% (hypothetical) of the shoppers in a walmart were packin heat, maybe they wouldn’t see it as a vulnerable population? Maybe maybe not. Sadly there just is no answer to rationalize evil thoughts. Evil is the absense of love. When we no longer love our neighbors, people do shitty things

 

The idea is that if there are more honest, good people with guns around when a situation like that occurs, then there's a greater likelihood that the event will end quicker with fewer or no casualties beyond the shooter.

Case in point (watch both):
http://sandrarose.com/2017/06/armed-suspect-robs-convenience-store-gets-shot-every-customer-inside/

 

I think you most certainly mean well here, but I disagree with a few of your comments. Masculinity is purely a social construct humanity could do well with out. Some of the traits of masculinity, and how they're percieved, are not good. When exercised they can be extremely dangerous. Unfortunately these are reinforced just as much as positive traits in our culture. No one needs to exhibit these characteristics to be a "man". Any person, especially a "real man", doesnt have project these traits to be comfortable with themselves and be a good, productive member of society.
I most certainly believe competive sports can build good character, as it did with me, but it can do the opposite just the same. Its more about who you are learning from, and what character they have, that truly determines whether you build good or bad character in sports.
You can't blame the parents, not in every case. Maybe they helped push them towards these horrific events, maybe they didn't. We learn life from all of our environment around us which stretches much further than the parents. Mental illness can, and usually does, play a huge part in this which also isnt always the parents fault. You cant blame a parents for their genetic makeup, nor can you always blame them for tramatic experiences outside of their control that damages the childs perception of reality.
Everyone on the "Left" isnt trying to take masculinity away. Im sure some would, just as others on the other side would like to cram toxic masculinity down our throat. If we are truly to love our neighbors then creating a divide by lumping everyone on the left into that group can be extremely damaging. Working together is necessary for our future. This wont ever happen if we characterize everyone from a large group with the extreme ideology of a few within that group. Same goes vice versus with the "Right". A lot of good people in the middle are unjustly getting caught up in this verbal and psychological warfare meant to divide us.

 

I think you most certainly mean well here, but I disagree with a few of your comments. I'll just leave it at that b'c this thread is on the verge of getting and the getting dropped.

 

There's been plenty of armed citizen's that have diffused active shooter's.

 

I know its quite opinionated and long winded, but its important to have these conversations even on this platform. Its not completely out of the realm of possibility that someone on here doesnt snap and do something similiar. No attacks have taken place here. Pun intended

 

@JTL

No offense taken brother. Everything is well intentioned and I’d be the first to not call myself an expert. As a Christian, human, and major pro 2a guy i HATE gun violence passionately. There definitely are 1000 factors contributing to these incidents and we couldn’t brainstorm all of them. I respect any opinion you have that is different and than those that I hold, because many times multiple things can be true at the same time.

It is true parents aren’t to blame for their kids hormones/genetics. AND it is true that they definitely are responsible for raising their kids properly. There are instances where parents(or other family) knows that they have a kid capable of hurting others. Those people do have a responsibility to keep a close eye on them. Plenty of these instances have warning signs that are ignored by family.

I do disagree though on the blame of mental illness for a bulk of crime. My own opinion is that mental illness has been completely overblown by our society as an excuse for people’s actions/behavior. Some medical company recently published an ad that 1 in 4 people suffer from some kind of mental illness. Total BS. Yes mentally ill people exist. Many of them, and some of them kill others. But it is wrong that we instantly assume mental illness in place of just evil choices. (Not saying this particular case per se, but just in general we see this in media/reporting). How can we call out an evil action if it is a hormonal imbalance?

I also disagree with masculinity being a social construct. I just feel like when we apply gradations to everything in society, everything starts to fall apart. Again, my opinion, everyone can do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

I think the only 100% reality is that we have experienced a breakdown in the social fabric of our communities and families. There might be many many contributors to mass shootings, but if we could fix our families and communities, ill bet we would see less of this

 

Exactly ^^^^

 

Yep^^^^

 

Manifesto was released. He specifically talks about targeting areas and groups of people in “least hostile” environments. Likened to a video game. He said “you” (his audience or following) will have better chances against one single guard or a group of unarmed people.

I think it’s going to be a good time to start having serious discussions soon and stop passing the buck from one scapegoat to another.

These people, as sick as we can portray them as, these people know what they are doing. They know the impact it will have. Again this kid talks about the negative impact it will have on the current president, even though he notes he had these feelings before trump was in office.

It’s no longer just a crazy kid that’s depressed or whatever. We can’t use that excuse anymore.

These are domestic terrorists and they know it.

 

as for the mass shooters you never know when these loonies will be set off, the one thing that they all have in common is that the masses must be present and they already know when they will strike and it's all about the opportunity, and that's what it's all about to them and having those targets of opportunity is all they need to carry out the most horrible thing a person can do.

please remember that just because you have a pistol it doesn't necessarily mean that you will win the fight but does offer hope and a fighting chance. 1st you have to come to peace with knowing that you may die and or kill somebody and be willing to do so. 2nd a pistol has distance limitations as well as its owner, since most people cant hit a moving target that is actually shooting at you at 20 to 30 yds. in the open, the loonie probably is wearing body armor and the ccw guy probably isn't as most dont.

all I can tell you is that if you decide to carry, chose to do so after taking numerous training courses after choosing your weapon since knowing your weapons limitations as well as your own limitations will set you apart from the stereotyped gun toter with the open carry .45acp 1911 (very capable sidearm btw) with 7 rounds of hope on board, in his soup sandwich holster with half the lard ass interfering with said gun and no extra mags so if he actually had to use cover fire against a mass shooter he would not have anything left but high blood pressure and the lords prayer.

good luck with your choice as it's a very personal choice.

 

Me personally as a concealed carrier, I would have to feel confident that my actions could make it better not worse. Not gonna draw and start blasting at the first sign of trouble, but if someone was already weapon drawn and shooting than I would feel obligated to try and help. My opinion, you choose to carry, you choose to carry the responsibility as well.

 

One reason that is overlooked about "good guys" carrying guns is what will they do in that situation. Fight or flight. When you become prey and your body recognizes that, flight is it's natural instinct. This is proven. It's incredibly hard to over come that natural instinct to run. This is what most people do. No one knows what they are going to do in that situation until it happens. All of us would like to think "if I had my gun.........." but the truth is there's more sheep in the world then sheep dog.

And even with a sheep dog, then you have to think about training in stressful environments how accurate will I be. Will one of my bullets miss....wait no one ever misses, that bullet is going to hit something....better hope it's your intended target. Even cops and military personnel dont shoot 100% under stress not even close.

The problem is the % of people that would be able to fight through the natural instinct to flee, draw a firearm, acquire a target, obtain proper sight alignment and sight picture take a shot(s) and hit your target is small very small. And no one knows if they can until they do. And this is just scratching the surface there are so many more factors and could and probably would come in to play.

Anyway my thoughts and prayers go out to all people affected by these tragedies.

#vbstrong

 

I don’t think knowing someone may be carrying is going to effect whether or not someone is going to carry out something like this. More times than not they know they are going to kill themselves or be killed by law enforcement. If they’re expecting to die knowing that it may be at the hands of a civilian instead of LEO or self inflicted isn’t going to change their mind.