Tire Rub

I need some help please. My son has a 2005 DC RWD Tundra with 17" stock wheels. We recently had the Rough Country Leveling Kit and Nitto Ridge Grappler 285/70/R17s installed. Tires spin freely with vey little clearance to the UCA (maybe 1/4"-3/8") and rubbing on the on the UCA with hard turns. This concerns me more than my son. Stayed up late reading and went back to the tire shop today. The tire shop is calling shims spacers and spacers adapters and advised against spacers due to balancing and rough ride issues. From what I read on here it seems like some folks are having luck with getting the needed clearance with spacers from Spidertrax and/or Bora. I got way in the weeds last night on the forum and got confused about hub centric or lug centric and deep shanked nuts. He really doesn't want a skinnier tire if at possible. Here are my questions:
1. Are these stock wheels hub centric, not sure I understand this anyways (don't judge)
2. Do I need hub centric spacers, this is where i got confused reading on the forum because some members mentioned their spacers are hub centric according to the website but doesn't have the lip so maybe actually lug centric. Is this applicable to me?
3. If you have a setup similar to mine and you found a solution that clears the UCA when turning can you let me know exactly what you did and post a link to everything i need to install it.
4. I would consider budget friendly rims instead of spacers but then i get even more confused about offsets to achieve the clearance I need to clear the UCA and avoid causing problems elsewhere. If anyone has a budget friendly black rim they can post a link to and let me know the size and offset required, that would be great.
I only have the one pic for now. I apologize for the long post and I thank you in advance for the help. I realize that most of this stuff is on the forum but the more i read the more i got confused, thanks!

 

Rough Country is garbage. Their lift kits are all show and don't do anything functional for the suspension.
The wheels and hubs are hub centric, the center of the hub fits and centers the wheel. You need to stick with hub centric spacers.
The tire shop is correct, the spacers are just a band aid fix for tires that are too wide on a suspension setup that has a horrible reputation. Best bet would be to get some narrower tires and consider removing the Rough Country kit for some proper bilstein struts and level the truck correctly.

Also before you do anything else, when were the lower ball joints last replaced? Are they OEM?

 

Is lift kit and leveling kit the same principle. I read mixed reviews about the rough country with some users endorsing the product with pleased results. We really just wanted to level the truck a little and thought that would allow us to get the bigger tire. Thanks for the input. At this point we really want to try to keep the leveling kit and tires installed as is and find a solution to to the rubbing that works. I appreciate your reply and suggestions. Yes sir previous owner installed lower ball joints i believe and shop checked everything prior to leveling the truck.

 

https://www.tundras.com/threads/so-you-wanna-buy-just-bought-a-1st-gen-tundra-eh.115928/

If you haven't already, read through the Mega thread above. There is a tires and suspension section. As the gentleman above wrote, definitely check out the lower ball joint section. Your son's tires are tall and wide so you need the correct backspacing/offset on the wheels otherwise the UCA will rub.

 

Rough Country is generally cheap garbage. If it's a spacer lift, you need to get it out of there. It's a lot of your problem. I can link you up with a video from a suspension engineer, if you need to understand why, its too long to type in here.

The fix here isn't to install wheel spacers. You're just adding potential failure points. If the spacers ever get over-torqued, especially with the way kids drive, it's gonna get ugly.

Remove the spacer lift. Install proper lifted struts. It's not that expensive, it's safer, and it'll ride way better.

You only need hubcentric spacers if the hub bore of the wheel is something other than 105.9mm - 106.1mm

Yes, and they're the best OEM wheels Toyota ever made for a truck.

You should not.

You'll be hard pressed to find much of anyone on here running strut spacers. They're bad news. Most of the folks on here know better than that shit.

I wouldn't. Spend that money on proper front suspension, both for the ride, for your kid's safety, etc.

Think about it. Decent wheel spacers are going to set you back $200, average. It's nearly impossible to find wheels for less than $150-175/ea. At that point you're in it for $800-900. You should be able to easily get some Bilstein 4600 front struts, with some Old Man Emu lifted springs, and new tophats/isolators, then and assemble for that much scratch.

Quite a few here can help you calculate backspace using wheel width and offset. Truth is, if you stick with wheels that are specifically to fit your truck, a Toyota Tundra 2000-2006, they're pretty limited in sizing and most offer very solid offset.

Also echoing what others have said: The LBJs are a major fail point on these trucks. We have a 20page long thread full of pics of people who installed aftermarket LBJ, or didn't replace the OEM units at 125k miles, and they catastrophically failed with no warning. It's ugly. It's one of the "big 4" killers of these trucks, along with not changing the timing belt every 10yr/100k, failing to change the radiator at least every 125-150k, and frame rust. Onlly use OEM lower ball joints. You've been warned. 6 years I've been on here and I've seen failure, after failure, after failure. Aftermarket parts from all the major manufacturers aren't what they used to be, and they're all coming from the same shitty factory in Mainland China these days - not China bashing here, just calling it for what it is. Read the NHTSA recall documents for the multi-brand aftermarket LBJ recalls on these trucks.

 

Thank you very much for your reply and info. Do you think ditching the spacer lift and installing proper struts will change the clearance of the UCA? Can you let me know everything I would need to do that. I read some where about folks using the Bilstein 5100. Just trying to educate myself about what I would actually need before I talk to the tire store. Is this something the tire store could install. They installed the leveling kit.

 

But are they Toyota Original parts (OEM)?

If no, get some asap.

 

A picture of the clearance you have now that is concerning, wherever it’s rubbing, and what the suspension setup looks like would be helpful.

 

Absolutely. The thing about strut spacers is, they effectively change the geometry of the truck by pushing the suspension downward. That’s cool on some vehicles, it doesn’t fly on these trucks, because you’re forcing the wheel into the spring/strut.

Everything you need to know is in the Suspension section of the thread @G_unit3000 linked will give you 99-100% of the info you need, that contains years and multiple member contributions worth of data on properly lifting these trucks to avoid the classic issue you are having here. I posted it, I organized it, but that’s not my knowledge, it’s the community here’s knowledge. Go read that. Once you have that baseline, pop back in.

And yes, you could do 5100, and transfer the OEM spring, top hat, and isolator to the 5100, running on the middle notch/circlip, and effectively achieve the same lift, correctly, with better geometry. But at the cost, and with the stiffer ride that comes with circlip lifts, the 4600 is effectively the same shock without circlips, you’ll get better ride running a lifted spring in the 4600.

As others warned, with the LBJ, the problem is not that the LBJ are *new*. The problem is whether or not the LBJ are *OEM* (ideally with new bolts because some LBJ bolts are one-time-use only, and some mechanics DGAF). You need to get it thru your skull on this: Aftermarket LBJ are a MASSIVE problem with these trucks, using the factory LBJ-under-tension design. Aftermarket LBJ aren’t designed to stand that level of stress and will fail, sometimes within thousands of miles. And I know, you probably think we are bullshitting you. I thought it was bullshit too. Then I spent 5+ years on here and have watched it happen over and over and over again. Part of the problem is, you’ll always find that one loudmouth braggart who got lucky, and won’t shut about it. The vast majority do not get lucky. And no aftermarket brands are safe. MOOG included. And people who want to tell you “Sakei 555 is made in Japan and is OEM”, it’s bullshit, someone cut one in half next to an OEM, the 555 joint was using plastic internals where OEM uses metal. There have been federal recalls on LBJ for these trucks on aftermarket brands (MOOG, NAPA, and others were involved). It’s not a joke, and I’m shocked nobody has gotten sued yet.

 

So I checked with the original owner and he said he replaced them himself in 2016 with Moog Parts.

Thanks for the info. So all I need to replace the rough country leveling kit is the Bilstein 4600 Strut? I will continue reading through the forum and thread your suggested, thanks!

 

@assassin10000 previous owner said he replaced them in 2016 with Moog parts.

@KNABORES I will take some pics and post ASAP.

 

Then you need new LBJ from Toyota.

 

Replace those ASAP. No joke dude; that's a ticking time bomb.

 

Ok will do thanks! So what do I need with the blistein 4600 to leveling the front of truck? I read on the page something f about springs. I guess I’m asking going the non rough country route what do I need as a complete package to raise or level the front of the truck? Just the struts or other stuff with it.

 

no
Gonna go out on a limb here and say something different than the negative Nancys on here.
If your tire isnt toughing the upper A-arm sitting still, and you can see daylight between the tire and upper A-arm, keep driving it.
Those tires have side biters, they make the tire look tougher, grab rocks and mud to help tie tire get traction. They are added rubber hanging off the side of the carcas of the tire and that rubber is totally optional. If / when the tire rubs the A-arm its because those side biters are hanging out and all they do is polish the paint off the A-arm. If the rubbing was bad the A-arm would remove the rubber it needed to out of those side biters.

EVERY toyota i have owned since 2008 has had the tire rubbing the upper A-arm in turns.
I use wheels that keep the tire tucked in as far as possible, and run the widest tire available. In some cases like my Tundra and the wifes 4runner, we have about 3 business cards of clearance from the tire to the A-arm at ride height. Yes they rub in turns, yes we have a semi polished spot on the A-arm, NO it doesnt hurt anything.

Here is a picture of my daily driver, 2008 4runner. These General tires have over 110,000 miles on them, on this 4runner, and have rubbed since the day they were installed. You are not going to hurt anything, the side biters are extra rubber and the A-arm will remove any rubber if it needs to. Every vehicle in the rest of the pix has sweet meats tucked under it and they all rub the upper A-arm in turns. If it clears at ride height with the wheel straight, RUN IT.

 

1" of lift from a thin lift spacer, is the same to the suspension geometry as a 1" lift from an adjustable shock body
2" of lift from a thicker lift spacer, is the same to the suspension geometry as a 2" lift from an adjustable shock body

Regardless of how you got the measured lift, the upper and lower A-arm and ball joints will be in the same position, as well as your tire in relation to how close it will be to the upper A-arm. In any case 2" of lift is the same as 2" of lift, no matter how you achieved it. Any one of you can walk out to your truck right now and see how much clearance you have between your tire and upper A-arm by looking under the bumper and looking upward. If you will take a floor jack and put under your truck and start lifting the front up slowly. Just jack it up 1/2" higher fender clearance and look and see what your tire does in relation to the upper A-arm. Every little bit you go up, naturally the A-arms go down, and the tire gets sucked toward the upper A-arm. In this case and the same with the 4Runner (which people love to lift) you will see the higher you go the closer the tire gets to the upper A-arm. This is why you also DONT need to go too tall when you are running wide tires because it effectively pulls the tire closer to the A-arm and gives you LESS clearance. Guys on the 4Runner forum are running 3-4" lift up front (to hell with axle and ball joint angles) and having to run 1.5-2" spacers to keep the tire from rubbing the upper A-arm with a 285 tire. They want the lift cause it "looks bigger" but are having to run wide spacers to keep the tire from rubbing the upper A-arm.
On the 4runner you can fit a 305 tire on a 2" lift, a 285 on a 2.5" lift. If you keep going higher the tire gets closer to the A-arm and rubs at ride height and then you need spacers. If you took the lift off completely you would get a lot more clearance from the tire to the upper A-arm but then you would likley rub in turns. The higher you go, the less room you have as the tire gets sucked toward the upper A-arm. The same thing happens on the tundra, so dont lift it any higher or you will have less clearance.

 

Are the LBJs Moog? If so need to replace with OEM ASAP. If OEM they are approaching 10 years and experience is telling us you should consider replacing at that point.

 

It absolutely is not. And I used to think the same way as you, until we had this conversation in the Lunch Table thread, which helped radically put into perspective what is actually happening when you install strut spacers.

​

But if you really need evidence Tinker covers it in the video below, starting around the 8m22s mark, where that video should auto-jump to. He actually takes real-life measurements to show you, it in fact will change contact with spacers. There's also some commentary about problems with rear lift blocks at around 5m30s if you want to jump back to it after watching at 8m22s. Seeing this in video, with real-world numbers, helps digest exactly what happens with a strut spacer lift. And generally, both segments I gave timestamps for show, overall, why you should never use spacers to lift, front or rear. Not only do you make UCA/knuckle action, but you're going to see tire action also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihErEq6SRrk#t=8m22s​

 

On to other things though, quick question that will also help answer things here. @jeffmac78 do you have alignment numbers from the shop that aligned the truck? It would help to see a picture of what they gave you, so we know where the camber/toe/caster settings are currently.

And what I'm saying on the 4600 ... You'd need 4600s. Tophats and isolators to accept the Old Man Emu springs. Which spring you choose will depend on how much lift you want to see up front. That will also depend on whether 2WD or 4WD, and which cab type. Double cab with 2WD like that one gives a lot of options. Do you have lift measurements, i.e. how much actual lift you got from the spacer? If not, can you measure the exact thickness of the spacer for us?