Best Shallow Sub

Merry Christmas. And one other thing, if you don't like the name "DIYMA" take your rig to a stereo shop.

 

@Snert

Here are a few more WinISD sims for some of the drivers on your list, plus a cheap $90 NVX slim sub, just for kicks and giggles.

AudioMobile EVO 1204 is up first. I will caution that there are several different sets of TS parameters floating around, but I pulled these ones off of AudioIntensitiy website. VAS is drastically different on another set of TS parameters that I found, but Fs and QTS were the same. So the model may not be completely accurate. Initial box suggestion from WinISD was for a 92 cu ft box! Or, in other words, free-air... Again, not sure which specs to trust, but if you can't find the MFG numbers consistently, I'm not sure where to go other than testing a driver directly.

Standard filters without boost shifts tuning much higher in the MFG suggested .5 cu ft box



Up the enclosure size to 1.0 cu ft and you have a bit more low end.



Cone Excursion is fine without boost at 600 watts, but adding 3db at 30 hz to get a bit more low end requires us to drop power down quite a bit to keep excursion happy.














Next lets look at JL 10WT3. Super easy to work with. Very robust and flexible setup.




Apply the standard filters



Now for some EQ; the low end is a little shy, but you are in .5 cu ft.



Xmax is happy, even with the 3db of boost and 400 watts (making for 800 watts at 30 hz).





Lets look at the JL 13TW5. Less xmax, larger cone, nearly identical results, but less power.



Standard Filters. Again, low end is a little lean like the 10TW3 even with 3db of boost



Increase the box size to 1.1 cu ft and low end fills in.



But at the expense of power handing if using boost. Power drops in half so the sub is seeing under 600 watts at 30 hz, half there everywhere else.



Overall SPL looks almost identical to most of the other drivers, but with less power than some.





Now for the bargain sub - an NVX SMW12D4 slim 12" sub that on paper has no business playing with the big dogs. No, it's not going to mop the floor with all the other high dollar subs, but you can see what 4x the price gets you.

Typical higher rolloff of large sub in small box. 2.8 cubes is optimal, 1 cube minimum.



Standard filters with boost makes for a leaner bottom end, but....



... SPL WITHOUT boost gets you this...



... and on only 250 watts, no boost required.



Again, I'm not saying the NVX is better in really any way except price. But it's surprisingly close.


Also, note just how close in response the various drivers are given the box constraints. The limited space we have to deal with is the big equalizer here; some drivers overcome it with power, some with boost, some with cone/motor design. But all are subject to hoffmans law - you want it low, loud, and compact: pick two.

Merry Christmas!

 

I reworked the Audiomobile EVO 2410 with a different set of parameter (namely change VAS to 25L) and found a nicer frequency response, but less ouput.

With High and Low Pass filters



Add some Boost - 3db at 30 hz



Excursion was little unhappy at 500 watts with 3db of boost, so we drop down to 420 watts to keep excursion in check



SPL drops a little bit as well, but response curve looks good in .5 cu ft. Going with a slightly larger box will get you a little more on the bottom end, but will take less power (or less boost).

 

@blenton

Awesome stuff man. Thanks for sharing!

I need to learn how to use WinISD, but it's been hard to find the time.

I'm trying to decide between the SI BM-11 and the Hertz MPS300. If you have the time to run a comparison, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

I got bored on my day off the other day and tried my hand at bottle flipping...... failure!!

 

Wanted to revive this thread/update on a couple things. Looks like the Wavtech Thinpros are back in stock on Crutchfield. Audiomobile appears to be doing select retailer based sales, saw Resonix, Breakers, and Audio Intensity had some in stock. Does anyone know what the max mounting depth dimensions are without Gately brackets? Going off various box dimensions it looks like a roughly 6.5” bottom depth and top depth of 3.5” (or less if you’d have a really tall wedge). Seat brackets aren’t an option for me and I can build a box to fit any shallow sub, and with a single shallow air space shouldn’t be a problem either, just curious what alls been fit behind the seats without modification. Obviously the TW3/5, Hertz MPS, Audiomobile Evo, SI BM-11 etc, but wondering if something like an Audiomobile Encore 12 or 15 would fit? Their mounting depth from what I can tell is just under 6”? Any thoughts/links to installs greatly appreciated as I’m still on the hunt for that “best” shallow sub, money and air space essentially no object, in other words a unicorn!

 

Yea you can fit the Audiomobile Evo, Audiomobile Encore 4412, and Encore 4415.

 

Dang! I thought i remembered seeing someone who had installed an Encore 12 or 15 but couldn’t remember if they had to do Gately brackets, @619Tundra do you have an Encore 12 or 15 installed or know someone that does? I’m curious on box specs

 

You can fit these without moving the seat forward? Thought they’d be too deep…

 

I just found the thread here: https://www.tundras.com/threads/subs-and-gately-seat-brackets.134944/page-2#post-3803556

Looks like Gately brackets would be needed for the 15, not sure about the 12 but it lists the same mounting depth as the 15 from what I can see

 

You have to have the Gately seat brackets for the audiomobile 4415. Not sure about the 12.

but if you don’t want to move the seat forward your stuck with very shallow subs.

the si bm12mk5 work well as do the bm11s

some have used arc audios.

there are more 10s that can be used than 12s. But you simply have to decide on which brand and go with it.

I was going to get the Gately brackets and try the audiomobile 4415 but wanted to wait and see how Kiser liked his set up after a while. He’s kinda looking for another alternative so that tells me it’s not all that and a bag of chips. I’ll stick with my bm12 mk5s and leave the seat right where it is.

 

I know the bm12 mk5’s and bm11’s are slightly different, but assuming they’re pretty similar musically, how do you like the stereo integritys? I’ve read a lot of great things but always curious to hear more first hand accounts.

 

Being honest, we all have our biases. I have used basically every sub and component speaker from SI in home theater and car audio and I enjoy them all.
My taste in subs has changed over the years and I really enjoy the xbl motor subs. When I bought the tundra that’s all we could really use and I love the way they perform. I listen to mainly 70s rock with a mixtures of a lot of different genres. I have not found any music that I thought the low end was lacking. But again I’m not a bass head either. I really like balanced, clean and detailed bass. There are other brands of shallows subs out there but I have not had a need for any until I got my tundra and I was going to put the Gately brackets in and see if I could get either and sql 12 or 15 back there but then I asked myself why?
The bm11 and 12 are very similar in bass signature and the bm11 is a strong sub. I had considered doing three of those instead of 2 bm12s but again asked myself why?
I have to stop changing for changing sake because something new and shiny just came out. I wouldn’t hesitate to use the bm11 if I didn’t have the bm12s.
And you can keep the seat right where it is.
I had the esp storage box under the back seat and I keep it full so that was another reason not to move the seat.

I think there are too tier shallow mount subs like si, arc etc and there are lesser ones but if you stay in the better subs your probably not going to notice a huge difference.

 

Hugely appreciate the response! I'm also considering adding the ESP underseat storage at some point and with a car seat in back, I'm not fond of moving the seats/using un-crash tested hardware. I know the Gately brackets are solid steel etc. and just as good of quality as the OEM brackets, I just can't in good conscious move the seats like that to accommodate a bigger sub.

I listen to a wide variety of music, classic rock, punk, metal, rap/hip-hop, electronic, jazz, etc. I have a JL 8w7 that was previously in a spec box on the floor. Made my own center console extension box and while I love the fit and finish, I think I miscalculated the air space and undersized. As a result I've noticed it has diminished output, particularly in the low end which I miss. I know that shallow subs often don't perform like full sized ones due to the physical constraints, my hope is that with 1 or 2 good shallow subs in an appropriately sized box I'll be able to recoup some of my missing low end. I've also been thinking about running one sub behind the rear seats, and another up front in the passenger footwell but that might be more work than it's worth.

 

I just found the specs for the Audiomobile Encore 4412 and it lists a mounting depth of 4.9" vs 5.9" of the 4415. I know @619Tundra said it would fit, but I'm curious if anyone knows of other subs with similar depth people have installed in a 2.5 gen crewmax behind the seats? It seems like the Encore 4412 would be somewhere in between a shallow and regular depth sub. Thoughts anyone? I'm going to take a crack at modeling some of these in Winisd to play around with frequency response charts, wish me luck lol

 

Can certainly appreciate the safety concern, but it’s worth mentioning that the safety belts are not modified. They’re still fastened to the OEM locations, which is the cab of the truck. Your passengers will likely remain in the seat just as well if it’s moved a touch.

And you’re correct. The Gately brackets are beefcake.

 

That 15” sub that is an inch deeper will be tougher to mount than just the inch sounds like since the centerline of the sub will be a good 1.5” higher than the 12. Since the box is tapered, you’re going to see the magnet in a shallower space.

 

That was my main thought/concern with mounting anything really, since it’s on an angled/tapered mounting surface that plays a big role. I think I read that the Encore’s have side venting rather than a rear vent so they can be mounted close to the rear wall of the enclosure, other sub I’ve heard of like that is the 13TW5 which is of course much shallower mounting depth as well.

 

Even if it were center/rear vented, there’s gonna be some space open behind the vent if the top edge of the magnet touches the back wall. Think of it like lifting one side of a plate off the counter a couple inches. The other edge is still on the counter, but there’s a gap under the middle. I’d say as long as the magnet clears the back of the box, there is likely decent space behind the vent.

 

Looking at various pre-fab boxes and I see that those Taco folks who shall not be named have a pre-fab box for a single 12" with a listed mounting depth of 5.6" and 1.45 ft^3 of air space, with a note about removing the rear wall padding which I've already done since my amp rack is bolted via rivnuts to the rear wall panel that's sound deadened as well as the rear wall. That makes it seem pretty promising that an Encore 4412 would fit. Doing a bit of modeling in Winisd and I got these results, although I'm not super confident in my setups on everything. Used all the T/S parameters I could find for a few drivers to start, set them all to an 80 Hz low pass filter, put them all on recommended RMS, and put them each in the recommended sealed box size and came up with this for SPL:


The Encore 4412 is the thick red line, JL 13TW5 is the blue line, Evo 2412 is the pink line, and the Illusion C12 is the green line. Was entering the BM-11 and clicked something that closed the whole program before I could compare it to these, but it's SPL response looks fairly similar to the Jl13TW5 and the Evo 2412. The real standout (as expected?) is the Encore 4412, 1000w RMS seems to give it greater SPL across the entire response curve. If someone like @blenton wants to chime in model it to double check my results I'd sure appreciate it On paper the Encore 4412 seems to have the best low end output I'm looking for, which I guess then leads me to the next question of beyond SPL, is there any way to discern SQ from modeling? Are there certain cone/magnet/motor materials (take the SI BM-11 neo magnets for example, or the SI/Audiomobile carbon fiber cones for example) that make for a "better" SQ sub?

 

Messing around with more modeling. Seems to me that roughly ~1.5ft^3 or just under would be about the max air space for a wedge box behind the rear seats. With that in mind, comparing the SPL response of single drivers SI BM-11, Illusion C12, JL 13TW5v2-2, JL 12TW3-D4, AM Encore 4412, AM Evo 2412, & Wavtech thinPRO 12 with each driver in max mfgr recommended sealed box size to maximize low end output, 20 Hz highpass, 80 Hz lowpass, and max mfgr recommended RMS power. All of that nets these plots:


It would appear the Encore 4412 is still the front runner for SPL output. Again, that's not my main goal but ability to dig deep and have good low end output is one of my main goals along with SQ.

The Encore 4412 appears to have 2-3dB greater output up until about 60Hz. The TW5 and thinPro 12 look about the same until 40Hz when the TW5 has more output thereafter.

I don't feel I'll need the output of dual subs, but just for shits and giggles I modeled dual subs for the models that would still fall under the ~1.4-~1.5ft^3 max sealed box volume. Got these results compared to their single driver counterparts:

 

Hey man, you still need about 5/8" of clearance on the back of the magnet for the 4412. I think Fox Acoustics has a box for you.

 

I don't know the specs or the exact sub but I know they are audiomobile 12's but showtime audio out of Chicago has made a box for 2 12's in a tundra behind the seat. I don't know how giving they are on their specs but they will build and ship for you.

 

They only have a dual 10" box for crewmax and the mounting depth is too shallow as well as magnet diameter.

Thanks for the input! I might be going to Chicago in April so maybe I'll see if I can check them out. I'm guessing they're box is for the Evo 10's as those are a little shallower and have a less wide magnet.

I've been taking a ton of measurements, doing some more modeling in Winisd, and I even resorted to mocking up an Encore 4412 using foam poster board. The frame angle dimensions aren't perfect, but the surround is 12" wide, magnet is 190mm/~7.5" wide, mounting depth is 5", and the surround is 1.5" tall from mounting surface. Overall it's close enough to get a decent idea of fitment. With the sub front facing, there's no way to make it fit without hitting the seat frame and foam at a couple spots, and that's with the magnet touching the rear wall:


I started thinking about removing foam to drop the surround down some to clear the seat frame, but quickly realized the foam doesn't extend all the way to the back wall and there's a metal hump/slope that comes out from the back wall and drops off at about 3.5", more on that in a sec. That got me thinking, take a page out of the JL stealthbox book and check fitment reverse firing:



Can see here that with the sub push all the way back against the seat frame, it clears the back wall by ~1.5". I found an article that listed a spec for the surround height being 25mm, which is just shy of an inch, meaning my mockup surround is .5" too tall which is good. Overall I think this fitment would still be too tight though. I then started thinking again about removing foam, this time to drop the magnet down and put the sub on an angle, that's where I'm at right now. Not a realistic solution on the passenger side since the jack brackets etc. are over there (don't care about relocating the jack but there's a bunch of sheet metal etc. that would have to be removed as well) but on the driver's side it's nothing but foam and the seat legs/frame is wider on the drivers side. The dilemma is the geometry of everything, essentially the magnet needs to be able to drop at least a few inches to clear the seat frame, and then with it angled back towards the seat, the surround still needs to clear the seat frame as well. I've got my seats pulled and plan on removing the c?-pillar trim back there to roll the carpet back, remove the foam, and see how things layout. I found some pics of trucks with the carpet rolled back and foam removed to get an idea of the slope of the metal, and it's fairly gradual which is a good sign.

This pic is from another member's truck with my mockup laid overtop, not to scale, but to get an idea of the potential layout. I'm stubborn and once I get something in my mind I'll go to great lengths to try and make it work until I'm 100% certain it won't haha.



The bottom edge of the sub would probably be a little closer to the back wall at a steeper angle, but again, won't know until I get the carpet pulled back and foam out to tell.

Overall the box shape from the side would look something along these lines:


and then to get the required cubic foot airspace I would either just extend the depth out under the seat, or slap a wedge box with opposite slope to match the seat backs or just a rectangular box next to the sub chamber, and make it as wide as needed behind the seats, sort of like this:

 

I understand the stubbornness stuff, I was told I couldn't get 2 12s under the rear seat of mine but by golly I knew it could be done one way or another and I put in the work, had the box made and now I've got 2 shallow dd 12s under the seat and looking to get 2 more and have a box made to put behind the seat so I can have 4 12s and still fully functional seating in the rear

 

If I can work out making this sub fit, it might open the door to other regular subs that have a lower mounting depth and not super wide magnet. I think the biggest thing is just going to be deciding if it's worth cutting the carpet. Ultimately it would be cutting 2 extra seams in the carpet and removing foam, which would be barely noticeable if you put the truck back to stock and stuck the foam back in, just have 2 extra seams in the carpet.

Take like a JL 12w3 as an example, 6-5/8" mounting depth with a 5.5" wide magnet, or even a JL 12w6 has a 7-9/16" depth and a 7" wide magnet, Audiofrog GB's are a very popular SQ oriented sub with good SPL as well, the GB10 is 6-1/4" deep with a 6-1/2" magnet and the GB 12 is 6-5/8" deep with the same 6-1/2" magnet diameter.

Obviously this is a big "what if" and maybe the reason I've never seen it done is because someone else has tried and failed, but I can't find anyone talking about doing a box like this so I'm not sure if anyone's taken the effort to try.

I remembered that for the double cabs JL did an 8w7 stealthbox that extends under the seat, cropping that box (ignore the port etc.) to visualize looking at things from the passenger side to illustrate:



Could remove all the foam under the seat and have the box replace it, and then if need be to get the air space could put an opposite sloped wedge attached to the side with the X, basically would need to clear the lowest bar of the seat frame and be about a 75* slope

or could make the box under the seat more or less a wedge, and then again could attach an opposite sloped wedge to it or a rectangular box again to get the necessary air space sort of like this:



Could essentially play around with any combo of these shapes so long as the sub itself can fit which again comes down to the sub's magnet clearing the lowest bar of the seat so it can drop in under the seat and have enough room off the bottom to then have the proper angle for the surround to not hit anything either.

 

This is the coolest new tech idea we’ve seen in quite some time! Two thumbs up.

 

If that would work and extend the box under the seat you could almost have no issues running a ported setup without worrying about airspace. I like your outside the box thinking!

 

Alas I think it’s time to stick a fork in it. I got my carpet pulled back and threw the seat in. I underestimate how much of a hump there is under the rear driver’s side seat. The space between the seat frame and floor pan is ~5-1/4” give or take:



As you can see, the seat frame hits smack dab in the middle of the magnet.
That bar is at the same height across the middle seat, and although the middle seat has less of a hump I think you’d run into the same issue. I tried flipping it around, having it down firing etc. to no avail. I still think you could maybe squeeze it in rear firing but you’d have the mold/fiberglass the seat back to squeeze out every available millimeter of depth. With it rear firing you’d maybe have 2” to play with, give it 0.5-0.75” at the back and 1.25-1.5” in the front for excursion and it just maybe could squeeze in. I don’t have the skills or know how to do that so it looks like I’ll be settling on a true shallow sub here

 

Would a .5 - 1 inch seat lift make any difference in that situation?