3rd Gen non JBL sound system Upgrade Info

OEM Speaker configuration question: I have an SR5 with the "Premium audio" option, 14" screen, etc. It looks like I have a center speaker in the dash... at least there is a speaker grate cover there.... and the 2 in the dash corners. So, 2 in the front doors, 3 in the dash, 2 in the rear doors would make 7. From page 1 of this thread, the 9-speaker system supposedly also has 2 tweeters in the rear, but I don't see any in my rear doors?? So, how many speakers do I have??

 

There’s 4 tweeters, 3-3in in the dash, 2-6.5s in rear, 2-6x8 in front. The JBL adds a sub in the rear and moves 2 tweeters in the front door to the A pillars

 

I was reading the table on the first page that lists 6 and 9 speaker non-JBL systems. It appears to me that I have 7 speakers?? I do not see any rear tweeters that the table says the 9-speaker system has.

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you how those Focal 3" fit in the dash? Modifications necessary? Or not?

 

The DC probably has a different config than the CC. Did you pop the center grille cover to see if there was actually a speaker there? If not, you have the 6 speaker system. 6x9 in the doors, 2 3/4's in the dash and 6.5 in the rear doors. Just like the 3rd gen Tacomas

 

I have not actually popped that front cover off to look. Heck, 6 speakers is plenty, especially after they are upgraded. At least we don't have anything really wacky like the rear ceiling speakers in the headliner of my 2009 Tacoma Access Cab.

 

None of the front doors come with tweeters. The JBL adds a tweeter to the a pillar in addition to the 2 3/4 midrange in the dash. I know the premium system with the larger screen has the center channel and tweeters in the back doors added, but that's on the Crew Cab, the Double Cab likely has a different configuration

 

Right, I knew that. I'd add front tweeters, probably using the JBL A-pillars. Probably would not add tweeters in the rear.

 

I had these speakers in my Tacoma, you could use the same ones, they are a direct drop in, no modifications necessary-
Kenwood Excelon

$229 KFC-XP6902C Car Component System Select Chevrolet/Toyota

KFC-XP6902C for the front
Kenwood KFC-1696PS for the rear

 

Those look pretty good. The question is what to do with the tweeters, cross them over from the front door and mount them in the A-pillars... or maybe mount them in the dash corners using the OEM signal there. But I am not sure what signal those get from the H/U or if it would be appropriate for tweeters?

 

I would try those first before adding tweeters, you may feel like those are enough. I had them in my Tacoma with no equalizer for 3 years and was satisfied with their sound. Adding the tweeters later on will be easy. Once you have the JBL a pillars you just mount the tweeter of your choice behind the JBL grille and run the wires and tap off the dash speaker. Most aftermarket tweeters sold separately are going to come with their own in line crossover. Also both the door speakers and dash speakers are tied in at the dash.

 

you are mistaken in what I’m saying, or perhaps I didn’t word correctly. What I’m saying is, instead of being in the doors, the tweeters are in the A pillars. To the question about 9 vs 7 speakers. I had 9 with an 8in screen. Not sure what is “premium” about that

 

So, how did that Focal 3 way set fit for you? Did the 3" dash speakers go in easily or require mods? I assume the door 6 1/2s went it easily with the proper adapters. I had a set of Focal components in my Tacoma that I really liked so am considering these.

 

the 3s fit fine with some plate style adapters and same for the 6.5s.

 

Anyone have upgraded all the speaker out and adding a sub to their truck, can you share your setup. Did you add amp to just the subs or one to the speakers and one to the subs. What type of wire harness did you use. I don’t want to run new wires to replace existing speakers but would like to power it with amp.
Thank you for any help.

 

have you even bothered to read the last 7 pages? Fairly comprehensively discussed here

 

Long story short, yes. I just added a 5-channel amp and a sub using the 17' factory integration harnesses from TacomaTunes. One of the harnesses takes the OEM outputs to the amp and the "loopback" harness returns the amplified signal back to the dash where it gets plugged into the OEM speaker wiring. You wire the sub directly from the amp. See my posts on the previous pages for the details. I haven't upgraded the other speakers yet but plan to. The amp and sub help a lot already.

 

I got my seat delete done. See this thread: Easy DIY Double Cab rear seat delete | Toyota Tundra Forum (tundras.com)

 

Is the size of the sub box the reason for the feet on the lids? Or was it for some other functionality?

 

No, the bin/seat mount frame determined the lower limit. The 1 1/2" angle lets the lids clear the uppermost hard points. So, none of that needs to be cut off... or I guess you could make slots or notches. But that would make for some obstructions in the surface. And the deeper bins are good now that the sub takes one side.

Edit: Also, the lower edge of the angle sits on a ledge so it can't go lower. If you wanted to do this and preserve the original bin height you'd need some standoff spacers to allow mounting the angle out from the ledge and rotated 90 degrees. Might also need a 2" angle to get low enough. And then probably longer bolts to go through the standoffs to reach the seat mount holes. But that would work... although you'd still need notches to allow those brackets to poke through. Or you could make some brackets that go into the seat mounts then drop down to the bin level, add a cross piece and mount the lids to that.

 

Does anyone know if the factory headunit puts all pass filters to each speaker in the non JBL systems?
I have JL Audio FIX and TWK processors I'd like to repurpose into a Toyota but JL Audio is warning me that they think Toyota puts all pass filters to every speaker in gen 3 Tundra and gen 4 Tacomas and this all pass filtered signal will interfere with the processors ability to give clean full range signal to aftermarket amp(s).
PS this group is fantastic and thank you kindly for sharing all the valuable intel.

 

Forgive my ignorance but what is an "all pass" filter? Seems like "all pass" would just mean no filter? But like you I am curious as to exactly what sort of signals the OEM system sends to the various locations.

 

They are new to me too. I am still researching and don't have a full grasp yet so please don't take what I say as gospel but my understanding is it's a way for the manufacturer to adjust time delay and frequency to get the most out of the cheap factory speakers and create the best sound they can without spending money on better quality speakers. When it comes to aftermarket upgrades, the all pass filters don't easily allow for full range signal to be fed into dsp/amp. If you were to sum all the speakers Fr mids, front Highs and rears in an attempt to get full range, there's a reasonably high risk that it won't work out and there will be interference, dips and pops whathaveyou...and then what do you do?
Here are a couple links that I've watched recently on all pass filters.
https://youtu.be/SUqJj8dWw80?si=AlXA6lI_qp9Bndwr

https://youtu.be/q9kwkLhLUt0?si=ry_LmRp2cIK1B1wT
JL Audio recommended I look into a PAC Amp Pro but unfortunately the Amp Pro isn't made yet for the new Gen Toyotas so I'm still searching for a way to get or make full range signal to my dsp/Amp.
My hope is on the base Tundra system that the rear speakers weren't used to create the all pass sound staging by Toyota and that those rear speaker may be full range signal but unfortunately I don't have the truck yet to run those tests.

 

I'm fairly certain that the 4 speaker outputs from the OEM headunit are full range. The only difference being that there is reduced bass signal from the rear speaker outputs. Nothing in the signal is filtered until it gets to the individual speakers that have inline capacitors and/or inductors. Just to be clear this is for non-JBL

 

An all pass filter is something that changes the phase of the speaker. When a speaker is out of phase by 90 degrees you are essentially losing the stereo signal. So basically it's just like wiring the positive speaker wire to the negative side and negative to the positive side. Some processors allow a variance of phasing, this is done to position the "sound stage" for a particular seating position. I don't believe the OEM's would use something this sophisticated with a basic head unit. What I can tell you from experience and based on my own opinion is that the headunits (at least the non JBL) have a higher output signal on the front than the rear. I found this in my 3rd gen Tacoma. When measuring the voltage to set my gains on my amp the voltage signal on the front was significantly higher than the rear. I found the same thing to be true in my Tundra. In essence the headunit is likely a 25 watt front output and a 15 watt rear output. This makes sense as it costs less to produce and from a sound designers standpoint, the rear speakers should just be a filler as most of the sound should emanate from the front. If you want the best sound, the only option is to add an equalizer. This allows you to overcome dead and resonate frequencies in your vehicle by boosting or attenuating precise frequencies. That is why I chose to go with the Alpine Alpine PXE-C60-60. Even if the factory signal has a filter, the equalizer is able to overcome this.

 

Thank you for explaining all pass filters much better than I can!
If you humor me and watch below from around 8:20 till 9:40 in the linked video..they are checking for all pass on a Toyota with base model stereo and find all pass to be present on front speakers.

Taco Tunes replied to an email stating that all speaker feeds in New gen Toyota trucks have "fully filtered signal from the non JBL head unit"..take that as you will.

If I had the truck I'd fashion an RTA and find out once and for all what we're working with but I do not..yet.

Looks like my JL Audio TWK dsp has somewhat similar EQ options/adjustments to your Alpine DSP.

Here's that all pass filter video https://youtu.be/SUqJj8dWw80?si=Z4d10dtwpA1v5IbS

 

That is interesting, for sure, especially what they said at the end that you don't want to sum the 2 channels for a subwoofer input. I am still wondering about my recent subwoofer installation. My Kenwood amp sums channels A and B to get the subwoofer input but I had to literally crank the subwoofer input sensitivity and subwoofer output on the amp to their maxes to get much of anything out of it. At mid settings there was literally zero subwoofer activity. At first, I thought the amp was broken. I'd love to hear what you find if and when you can do this analysis. Maybe I will need to get one of those LOCs or EQs that can separate the channels and pick just the front (A) for the subwoofer input and send that to the amp's subwoofer preamp level input?

 

Regardless of filtering or time alignment, a good DSP can overcome and correct the signals so that you can get the most out of your system. It does require some work and a little knowledge. This is really not anything new, the interior acoustics of a vehicle are always going to be the most crucial variable. Each vehicle has different acoustical properties that will either boost or attenuate frequencies, also known as resonant frequencies. When you throw in the things that the OEM's do such as filtering or time alignment correction it can make things more difficult. I am not a brand ambassador for any particular company, back in my heydays I used to own my own car audio business and I competed in IASCA and USAC and placed in the top 5 of world finals in my power classes. There are and were a variety of companies that produced good products. Sadly some are no longer around, but that's a different story for a different day. I was on several different factory sponsored teams and I've actually worked for 2 car audio manufacturer's. I've been "out of the loop" for several years as I sold my previous business and now I own a business in a different automotive related field now. I can say that Alpine has always stayed on the cutting edge in terms of the front end (source and signal processing) and they still tend to lead in this area today. I personally would not use their amplifiers or speakers because I know they invest more R&D money into things like head units and signal processing. I did a good bit of research into what's available today and IMO Alpine covers a lot of bases. Audiocontrol also still produces good equipment, and they a were actually a sponsor of mine for several years. They have always made high quality crossovers, equalizers, and line voltage devices. Back to the topic at hand, I have the Alpine PXE and it does produce a visible RTA graph. As you can see below in my screenshot there are not a lot of variances (gaps) between the frequencies, which is what you would see on an all pass filter system. The measurements are actually relatively tight. Also, as I stated based upon my own experiences with my 3rd Gen Tacoma, and now on my Tundra the line voltage between the front and rear inputs is different, even when the fader is set to rear only, the voltage difference is significant from setting it at front only. If the system incorporated all pass filters, there should be little difference in voltage output, a time delay or filtered signal does not increase or decrease line voltage. Regardless, the ultimate goal is to be able to correct and tune the system to our own individual liking. Again, I chose the Alpine processor because it is highly configurable and has a lot of tools to help achieve your goals, including a built in RTA, equalization, crossovers, time alignment, anti eq settings, all configurable on individual outputs. There is also an app for iPhones to help get you a baseline starting point if you don't have much experience tuning a system or going into the infinite detailed level adjustments that the Alpine is capable of.

Here's a couple of videos, one explaining whey you should or should not use a DSP and another from Alpine showing the functionality of their processor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdGTWpwCoTg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMeBBekz8kc

 

Where were the settings for bass, mid, and high on your radio when you were making your adjustments? If you look on my graph above from my truck, I had everything set set flat (in the middle) and although you can't see the frequencies by #'s being covered by the graph table of contents, you can see that the measurement around 50-60 hz has a boost of over 12 decibels and then drastically decreases in the sub sonic ranges 40, 32, 25, 20, 15 hz which is normal. Was your amplifier bass knob up front was turned all the way down? that would likely be the cause

 

No, all tone controls, including bass, set to center/flat. I can get more out of the sub by raising the bass, but that, of course is pretty wide spectrum and also boosts the mid-bass, which I don't really need.

 

It could just be the built in processor of the amplifier. In my Tacoma I wasn't using any processor, and I ran high level directly into my 4 channel JL amp and used the RCA low level output from that amp to my sub amp. I had to turn the gain on my sub amp up to 3/4's to get a good signal. Even at full gain and volume near max level the signal was not clipping.