no crank, no start, no click

I'll start with this is my first Toyota. That being said, here it is. 06 D.C. 4.7 4x4, 244 on the clock. bought it from a landscaper and it has what seems to be a electric brake set up for a trailer. there's a controller under dash and a fused cable hooked directly to the battery. problem started as a very intermittent occurrence but on second or third cycle she always started. then started being more frequent. Now, she's full time no crank, not even the click. lights do not dim, all dash indicator lights work although while trying to crank it, the clock dims all the way to dark and returns when key is released. the other day it started with a jump BUT i held the key in the start position and got nothing, continued to hold it there and about 5 seconds later she spun and kicked over 5 times, in rapid succession, i shut her off and restarted. she fired up 4 of the 5 times with the 3rd being the no crank try. shut it down and 3 hours later, back to no crank. i
v done a little reading and understand that possible causes could be starter(gonna jump that tomorrow), battery and/or terminals(battery is at 14.2 running, 12.6 at rest, and dips to 11.9 while cranking when it does crank. I have heard it could be anti theft related, (care has only 1 key and it's generic hardware store cut. not sure if it's alarm equipped but it does have the horn next to the battery. NOW, the last time i put a multi meter on the battery at rest was immediately after totally cleaning both terminals, posts, and ground to fender and the multi meter read 12.6 and with probes touching a different part of terminals dropped to .4 or 0. probes being held on solidly and i watched the volts drop and come back up. these terminals are comb your hair in them shinny. All dash lights work as does radio. will not start in neutral either. on these trucks, is does the ignition switch push in ever so slightly, almost like a push button? or do i have a loose and faulty ignition switch?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

That's a wall of text, sorry if I missed anything.

First, there's a way to test everything and anything. When you can't find the exact solution and have a lot of possibles, start using testing to remove the easiest possibles first.

Stupid question. Have you taken your battery to be tested, specifically to confirm how many CCA it's capable? Have you tested the battery when you're in a no-start condition? Most local auto parts stores have a setup to more deeply test your battery and do it for free. Only costs you a trip to the store with the battery.

I can't tell you how many times battery has been the cause. Yes, cables (corrosion) sometimes. However, I doubt this is parasitic draw (i.e. car alarm) if voltage is high, but there's a way to test that, as I posted over here.

Car security systems often integrate into the starter circuit, and after 10+ years they can be prone to failure. There was a security system commonly installed at Toyota dealerships, especially in SW USA. KARR is the brand name. Look up KARR in this subforum, you'll find a ton of info. Look under the steering wheel. They often stuffed into the driver kick panel too. May be a rat's nest.

There's a ton of stuff to check, but before you do anything, I'd rule out a possibly defective battery. And seriously, watch that video I linked up if you're not familiar with electrical troubleshooting. I hate that guy, but it's really a helpful video.

 

Battery is at 12.6 in no start condition and drops to 11.9 when trying to start. Only silence, I don't get any clicking from the relay or starter. I will do as you suggested and have CCA tested but when it was an intermittent problem, and did start she cranked strong. When in no start mood, no dimming of any lights. Is there a test for the neutral safety switch. She will not crank in neutral either. Am I correct in my theory of,leaning towards the neutral safety switch or the immobilizer with no clicking being heard while attempting to start?

 

Yeah, don't get hung up on voltage. How many CCA is the battery offering up in no-start condition? Voltage means virtually nothing for cranking a car. You can have 14.2v charge in your battery but if it only has 5 CCA to offer, your truck probably isn't going to start. Voltage and amperage are two very different things. Go have your battery tested for CCA. Though the intermittent strong start vs. not strong start is an interesting condition, could be a red herring.

Though I seem to remember someone mentioning an interesting tidbit a while back about the fuel pump relay causing a similar condition.... But I think in that case, turnover would happen, just no fire. I can't recall.

There is a test for everything. There's a Google Drive link floating around this forum to the FSM (factory service manual) which tells how to test nearly everything. It will help you with diagnosing stuff like this, I believe.

 

Testing battery with a volt tester isn’t going to get you far. Might have a dead cell and you will never know.

 

Not trying to swoop in with a correction here, I could be wrong with what I'm saying, but I think it'd be pretty clear if it was a completely dead cell. Most non-AGM car batteries have 6 cells, with a max of 2.125v per cell, so 12.6-12.7 if all cells are functioning correctly.

In theory, if a cell fails or is failing, that number will have a hard time reaching and staying above 12.5v after a full charge if one of the cells is tanking, or if completely failed, will be closer to 10.5v.

As long as OP's battery is at 12.5v or above after sitting overnight, my concerns would be low about a cell death issue. However, even with a fully healthy 6-cell car battery, I've had ones register less than 50 CCA which is barely enough to get half a single crank rotation on our big V8s. Might start a 1960s VW Beetle, though.

 

a little cold here today and that on top of a 14 hour tractor trailer driving shift and a snow storm tonight = this will wait till tomorrow. these 67 year old bones don't react well to the cold and snow. lol i'll pick this up in a day or 2. thanks for the input guys. looks like i'll be tooling around in the jeep this weekend. she's an 87 comanche with 4 angry squirrels under the hood and 288k on the clock.

 

I always wanted one of the older Cherokee Chiefs like Stacy David worked on. I can't even imagine where you can find one for $1,500 though, even back when he did this episode of Trucks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BxXGdjW_p0

 

i paid 1600 for my mj like maybe 12 years ago. they're getting hard to find and dam near impossible to locate one with no to minimal rust. there are some out there that are exceptional but big money. the one below is the last year of AMC, 1987

 

E30andaMJ check your ground to battery post. Mine had a lot of corrosion on the cable lug and the cable itself. It showed the same symptoms as yours.
I cut and removed all corrosion at the end of the cable, smeared some terminal goo (dielectric grease) and a new terminal. That fixed mine.
One easy way to troubleshoot is to get a jumper cable from the battery negative post to engine and try starting that way. Or if you have a multimeter check for resistance.
Good luck.

BTW, which E30 you have? we had a 91 318is.

 

I have an 86 and an 87 325es. The 86 is black 5 speed with 410k on the clock and the 87 is white with an automatic and 220k

 

Best era for BMW. Had a 92 E34 525 with the NA 2.5 I6. So smooth. Sold it at 455k miles to a friend for a commuter. He killed it in less than 3k miles.

 

My ladies

 

Lord knows they're better than the piece of shit E60 I bought 10ish years ago. Stayed with me for about 2 years then got traded in, falling apart, only a couple of years old.

Don't get me wrong, it was fun as hell to drive. The only unmolested car I've ever driven more fun to drive was an R32.

 

Can’t offer any help with your problem, but here’s a link to FSM:
http://toyota.aitnet.org/Toyota/Tundra/2000-2003_Tundra_FSM.pdf

Always liked e30s, almost bought a 325es once, but the seller turned out to be shady when it came to the paperwork and I walked, ended up with e36s instead, but still to this day keep my eye out for an e30- even though I don’t need one

 

E30's are going up in price every year. Light, great handling, and no end to the builds you can do. But the best thing about them is the way that new bmw owners look at you at a light. Present day bmw engineers and designers hate that car because they can come nowhere near the quality of design and workmanship that the e30 has. Timing belts, oil changes, and keep the rust at bay and your good for 400k and beyond.

 

Kinda want a 318, no timing belt had a 2002 and grew up with them, those were fun, but I sure wouldn’t want to be in an accident in one. Current other vehicle is an e46 wagon, we’ve had a few in the family and no real complaints, all their faults are well known, you can wrench on them easily, the (old) plastics are the worst part. Pretty sure I don’t want any generation after the e46.

 

E34 M5 Wagon was my dream commuter car. Or an Alpina. Not crazy about the wheels on those though.

 

I wouldn't even want an E46. My friend's burned to the ground when the rear tail light wiring melted down, and apparently it's happened to many other E46 owners. BMW had JUST issued a recall on that specific problem around the time I had my E60 in the shop for the 2nd time to replace the same tail light plastic plug that melted apart, I opted not to renew the warranty, and traded that shit in. 3 electrical problems tied to lighting in 18 months (two in rear, one halo blew) cost me 8+ hours of time at the stealership waiting for free warranty work to be done - not how car ownership is supposed to work. I have no doubt BMW was and still is full well aware of the issue, but took them more than a decade to issue a recall for the E46. Freaking. Lame.

Neighbor had same issue on their X5. Tail light stopped working, asked me to look at it. Sure enough. Plastic connector melted. Like, wtf?

But damn was my E60 fun to drive.

 

https://youtu.be/MZtJSkHzeIA
Watch this 10 minute video. This guys nuts but nails the e30 right on the head.

 

Very nice!
feel like we are now WOT, oh well.
I probably had more bimmers than any other car brand. e10's, e21, e28's, e30, e36, e46's and currently an e90 330i, it is a 2006 1 year model.
If I had to pick a favorite, that would be the e28, but the e90 its a great drivers car. The ignition switch and the idrive sucks, but the 265hp NA I6 engine and sport suspension make up for it.

at one point we had this many in the stable



Having the bimmer helps keep the Tundra off the daily commute (the previous statement gives this post Tundra content)

 

ok, back to my tundra, for now any way. lol
stripped back 8 or so inches of the neg. cable from the post. it's not new but certainly very serviceable. cleaned pos. and neg. connecters with drill and wire wheel. tomorrow I'll strip back the pos cable. i did find 1 of the cables off the pos. battery post runs into the bottom of the fuse box closest to the battery. this cable has a lot of play in side the fuse box, like what ever it's connected to has become dislodged from it's anchor point, or is this normal? does this line feed the current to the fuses? when this problem first raised it's ugly head i had no crank or click. now i have both solenoid and relay clicking but only the single click from each.

 

That's basically what feeds power to damn near everything in your truck, after passing through a 140A fuse that's fucking hell to replace. This is important for two reasons: If you don't have power into the vehicle, how is the vehicle going to know you're turning the key over? Hmmm....

And that's just one thing. Which has me sending you over to this thread. Hang in there for the first 20 replies, and you'll see exactly why I'm sending you there. Hope it helps you solve your problem.

 

So, which is the worst of the 2 evils? Being 67, and having to lay on your stomach, under the hood after removing the intake and play the (it's the starter or solenoid) theory first with partial amputations on both thumbs and 1 fore finger? OR, start with pulling the fuse block off and examining the wiring underneath? Let me ask this, if i put a small enough hole (just big enough to get my meters probe through} in the pos. cable as close to the starter as i can get it w/o pulling the intake, i should be able to confirm whether or not full power is at least passing through the access where the cable enters the motor, thus eliminating fuse box issues? ugh, i hate electrical gremlins. one more thing,

i found this wire under the dash behind drivers side kick panel. they look to have been stripped on each end as if to be spliced. it's yellow with a grey tracer. could this be part of my ever increasing headache?

 

I suppose it could be, and wouldn't doubt if your truck was wired previously with an aftermarket security system. Without cracking the electrical wiring diagram (EWD) for your truck, I can't tell you what it's for. I can't recall seeing a straight-orange wire.

That said, two questions:

Are we seeing two different ends of the same wire, because someone was too lazy to remove if for whatever reason? Like, maybe it was zip-tied to something a little further up the chain?

Assuming you have a DMM, can you test to see if either end has voltage: When the truck is off? When the key is in ACC position? When the truck is running? When the door is open? These are a few of the big main triggers, although shifting into reverse, for example, will trigger reverse lights, which will relay-on voltage to the back of the truck. Just curious if we may diagnose the purpose based on its output.

It may be that orange is a common wire color for a specific function. Like, throughout our trucks a white wire with a black stripe is almost always ground.

 

E30andaMJ to be clear, is the starter relay confirmed good? did you swap with a known good one?
Make sure you have a solid ground to engine, that way you can bypass any ground problems to starter or truck.
Were you able to check on the cable going to the fuse block?
If all those are good, you should at least have power and read 12.6 volts in the truck.
As far as checking the the starter itself, I will be no help with the Tundra.
Had I not been able to start mine after my troubleshooting/fixing I would had taken the car to the shop.
Because of the Tundra starter location and my if it takes more than a day of work rule, I would just turn into a checkbook mechanic.
hope you are able to diagnose.

If needed, Rainman_PNW posted wiring diagrams to include FGT DC at following link https://www.tundras.com/threads/ultimate-wiring-diagrams-collection.81448/

 

After I posted about the yellow w/ Grey tracer , (only looks orange in the pic) I found a couple of pics on this forum of audio connectors with the same yelloy-Grey wire so for now I'll assume that is what it's for but will throw my meter on it weather permitting,tomorrow.

Thanks for giving me a hand fellas, toyotas are all new to me. This truck was a one owner vehicle with all maintenance records and receipts, but was also a 244k landscaping truck. After doing my research and reading article after article on how dependable they are found a good deal on this one and she really runs great, it just figures that the first problem in 6 months of ownership has to be (from what I'm now learning)one of the tuffest to diagnose and by the way, I hope who ever designed the starter under the intake system is rotting away in a Hong Kong prison with a cell mate named Bubbason.

 

question, the cable from battery pos. that runs into the bottom of the fuse box, does it have any leads coming off of it in the fuse block? i found that it passes out through the top of the block and is attached to what i'm guessing is the 140 amp fuse via a small copper looking screw into what my lack of electrrical knowledge tells me is the in side of the 140 amp fusu and that the othher side would be the out, to feed the fuses their current. i cleaned all contacts in and around the battery and fuse box and also added anothe good ground to the engine block. when i probe the flasher sockets in the fuse block, should i need to move them around to find a contact spot? the other day i had to do that. after i button her up i'm gonna try checking those relay sockets again. stay tuned. is there any opening on an 06 4.7 to get a bore scope in to look at the starter?

 

That lead runs into the fusebox and distributes power to the rest of the car. The fuses and such inside then route in a wire bundle thru the firewall and to the interior fuse block.

But hey, since I posted in a few other threads, please check this and run the diags shown here. I think it may help your situation. Though your truck and my truck (both 06 nd 47) may differ slightly in the layout, I think you'll be able to compare peaches to apricots on this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jWouSQYTnU