General Supercharger Thread.

I'll quote @Saltyhero13>>>When you get a chance read the Harrop tech paper (love letter) regarding this particular untuned blower. It convinced me and a few others to pull the trigger on an install. end quote both of your concerns are fully addressed in the white paper.


also, during my dyno, my A/F ratios we very safe, pulling low 12's under peak load. Installer said 11.9, But I think it's based on lambda.

You may not be aware that the 2020 Toyota ECU appears to handle 6psi quite well. meaning, with the extra air (with 85mm pulley), the ECU stays on the map.

since I don't whip the truck every chance I get, no, I have not seen any inconsistency in the performance. @ViktorG did a nice vid showing the ECU altering the A/F ratio to protect the cats and supporting your theory of inconsistent performance. but! I'm ok with the ECU telling me to back off. I know me.

I am not an engine guy & respect your apparent history with roots blowers. Whipple is nice and runs slightly cooler than the roots, however, as others have said - it ain't avail. I would have went with a whipple, if avail. Whipple makes boost under the blower, roots makes boost in the blower - am I right?

Harrop had the best summary of installing and testing it without a tune & the best intercooler, so that's why I went with it. my untrained eye has seen very consistent performance.

My installer, said the motor was still safely making boost to the rev limiter, so it had a lot to go. he just could not get to it with the ECU being locked. also said with ~6psi, he would not change the tuning - all the nannies were protecting the engine and trans. "it was great for a guy like me." whatever that means!!

presently, my only gripe is the transmission programming. I would want it to shift a tad harder into 2nd. it presently kinda slides into 2nd & interrupts the black marks. I'm sure others concur. Did one of the hive do some Transmission work to soup it up?

sidebar - I also have a 2015 4runner & would love to hear your recommendations.

I want my words come across as respectful conversation & not petty aggression. My internet conversations don't always come across correctly.

 

They do but its only one year and or 12K miles (or whatever it is), it not quite as good as Maggie's warranty.

I think so. The way I read the tech guide this is a detuned version where they use a larger pulley to keep it on the map as noted above.

 

Anyone using an untuned Harrop stage 1 document before and after upgrading to LT and DD exhaust?

 

@vq35721 Did you have LT's on your rig?

 

My Brother just got another Whipple like 2 months ago. They quoted 6-9 months but it came in 2.5. Unlike my truck, they quoted me 2 months and it took 10(lol glad I waited but the wait was bad). All this talk makes me want to order one now (maybe powder coated red or orange) and have it sit on my shelf.

I read the white paper when @Saltyhero13 suggested it. Knocking can damage your piston and cylinder wall. Usually, the ECU corrects and pulls timing (etc) (Like Harrop talks about but it is still there.). Toyotas are mapd well but I would have preferred Harrop to offer some sort of drive train warranty behind all that testing (@Saltyhero13 posted as I was typing this, they do I just didn’t see it and that is good). They have the data from the prior years and nothing really has changed minus the trans cooler. They say you will be fine, and I have no reason to doubt them. I just wouldn’t do it without a tune. Did you get a gauge? Banks or whatever digital that reads boost and trans. In the mean time I would put a trans cooler on and a larger heat exchanger for the SC.

How these superchargers work (I think you swapped the two). Roots is more like a blower, pumps air through and you get some compression (little to none) out of it, but it doesn’t really compress inside the SC. The twin screws compress inside the rotor housing of the SC.

With regards to heat roots runs hotter starting at about 1800 RPMS (just using these numbers as examples but the actuals are pretty close to these). When you get to 3000 you almost at 25% hotter in degrees. At 5000 you get to about 40%+ more heat (it goes a lot more north than that). Heat kills motors, simple as that you will need larger heat exchanger for the Harrop.

Boost air density on the twin screw creates 2-3 more psi under the same setup at the same rpms (within average boost zones).

The efficiency of the roots is really bad. It looks graphed like logarithmic functions. Roots is log(1/b)x and the twin screw is log(b)x. Roots is best at 1000 rpms and at 2000 it starts getting a lot worse. The only really downside of screw is that they make more noise and they cost more (usually).

Thanks for the disclaimer, now I know we should have sat and had beers over this topic. When tuning is available, I will definitely have my daily driver and offroad tune ready to go! I also don’t know how my messages read. I’m just here to learn, chat and have fun!

 

I posted in the LT thread. I think @Danimal86 was in that thread. I was wondering about the American Racing because they are made in the USA (just have to ceramic coat them) vs JBA which I think its made in Mexico now. Usually ARH have a great fit. Wondering if anyone has them installed here?

 

not sure it was me.....but I've been wrong before.
Either way, I'm in it to hear about some LT goodness

 

@Platinum714. Yes LT as in Long Travel suspension haha.. no not yet, planning on picking up some JBAs, Fuel Injectors and Pulley after renewing my registration

 

It was like a year ago I was just reading to catch up.

LOL, guess we have to watch the abbreviations. Brave man, did you cut your bed? For some reason cutting the body makes me more emotional than cutting the frame.

Are you gonna keep the oem cats? I hear a lot of quality issues with JBA. https://www.tundras.com/threads/jba-headers-quality-question.28791/
All this truck stuff is just a hobby but sometimes JBAs welds makes me want to cry.

 

Some cutting, no biggie lol. Yeah I read part of that thread too. Hopefully, I get lucky enough and end up with a good quality JBA lol . Not sure about cats yet. Need to weigh in my options , being in Commiefornia says it all lol

 

@sleddogracing Thanks for sharing your insights and knowledge.

Here is a @ViktorG thread with parts for a larger heat exchanger, parts list a few posts down:
https://www.tundratalk.net/threads/upgraded-intercooler-heat-exchanger-install.762024/

 

Cool setup! I was not going to go that far on mine but I was going to put those 3" bypass and relocate the mounts for them (no cage).

I got out of cali 10 years ago (for a number of reasons and it just gets worse), minus the week every month to fly to SF. One option, a lot of counties in Cali that are smog except, make a friend that is in one of those counties.

No smog where I am. In general I keep the cats, just use high flow. I dont like the smell without them and does hurt to keep them on.

 

Thanks! My brother is really the guy to go to. We are all engineers, he is electrical, probably reads wiring diagrams and parts catalogues to his kids as bed time stories (I know he at least reads them to himself ).

Thanks for the link, it makes me rethink how I will make the brackets for the transcooler.

 

I'm wondering how I'll fit a transcooler and a heat exchanger behind the grille. May have to look at different sizes. Tundras thread on the same topic:
https://www.tundras.com/threads/intercooler.43593/

 

I have ARH LTs here, just no charger

https://www.tundras.com/threads/just-another-arh-lt-review-pic-heavy.72677/


Fitment was great and quality just as good outside of some small things I pointed out in my thread. If it weren't for the 22's coming I'd probably order a Whipple but rather use that coin for my down payment on an IForce Max Limited.

 

Hey guys/gals, I’m new to the forum and was following this post since I got the Harrop and I’m currently having it installed as a Stage 1. Just thought I’d add my findings as I have been researching heavily and getting supercharger info from another source. The Boosted Tundras, formerly supercharged tundras page on Facebook is a concentrated page for boosted tundra info. There are great resources on there including people with lots of supercharged tundra experience like the guys from Prospeed and SDHQ and they install all of the different superchargers, so I was able to see how they compared the Magnuson, Harrop and Whipple. It is also worth noting that Prospeed who builds a lot of these engines says the 3UR is typically good for 600 WHP before you better start building it, which is contrary to what I’ve read on this thread. If that is true, this broadens the viability of getting the larger Harrop and Whipple and turning them up a little bit to make big power easier than the magnuson.

Magnuson TVS1900: runs with hotter intake temps and at a higher boost pressure to move the same volume as the bigger blower. Described as the most torquey at the lower RPMs cause that’s where it’s efficiency range is, but is more likely to run out of steam up top once you start turning them up. The most widely used and proven of the options.

Harrop TVS2650: runs with much lower intake air temps than the magnuson which keeps the motor happy, and PSI for PSI can make a lot more power than the magnuson. DAP found that at 105 degree ambient the Harrop ran 20 degrees cooler Intake temps and made 90hp more than the magnuson at the same PSI. This blower is described has being more torquey in mid range through high range and will not run out of steam up top. 2nd most popular blower of the 3.

Whipple: I’d say the Whipple has the least Info out there and is the least common, but it’s been said that it’s efficiency range is at much higher speeds so it won’t net you as much low to mid range torque as compared to the other 2. I could see how it might be desirable on a higher revving application but I’m not sure it would have benefits beyond the Harrop even in those applications.

I ultimately chose the Harrop due to the potential for growth, the quality of the parts, and the ease of installation (no pesky hard to reach bolts like the magnuson). It also looks the best/cleanest under the hood IMO. The Whipple was described by Prospeed and DAP as a nice blower but for a while there they were shipping out a lot of kits missing parts and some improperly manufactured parts which didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. When researching comparisons of the Eaton TVS vs the Whipple on the GM pages for corvettes/Camaros the consensus was there were really few to zero examples of the Whipple making 1,000hp on that platform (there were on other engines), but the TVS 2650 had several examples. The Whipple 2.9 was more on par with the much smaller tvs2300.

Sorry for the long post, but figured those interested in the topic would appreciate reading what I have discovered over the last 8 months of research all in one post! I’m not an expert on these by any means, but this is what I found in my research.

 

appreciate you jotting this info.

good stuff.

I used Pietz Performance and Alex conveyed the same feedback on the blowers. He said the same about the 3UR - 600whp is about the limit.

There was a Camaro there with a giant Whipple that gave me envy.

 

So in summary a stage 1 Harrop no tune quality build has

Harrop S/C
Upgraded S/C intercooler
Upgraded fuel pump
Upgraded radiator
Transmission cooler
Long tube headers (optional)
High flow cats (optional)
Upgraded fuel injection (optional)

Is that it?

 

My understanding is the LTH + HF Cats would require a tune. Someone else would have to comment if they've installed these without a tune but I was advised a tune would be required for anything besides a cat back. Curious to hear if HF Cats can be a substitute for the Cat delete described in the LTH thread, especially for states requiring emissions testing.

 

Id have to agree in that Stage 1 means your installing it on a truck with nothing more than perhaps a catback and a drop in filter. This also means using factory injectors and the largest 85mm pulley. The stock tune won’t be able to accommodate the headers, larger injectors or high flow cats to my knowledge. Id say a trans cooler (if your truck doesn’t have it) and a larger radiator are nice but not necessary. One additional item I would consider somewhat necessary is a good wideband gauge to monitor your AFR. I’ve read these engines need to be pretty rich to keep the cylinders cool due to the tight ring gaps, ideally in the 11.2-11.5 AFR at WOT range. If mine is in the 12s after installing I’ll be getting injectors and a tune right away rather than playing with fire.

 

Ok, so having a 19 to be safe I should still wait for the ECU to get cracked. Because I'd need a tune anyways if my AFR was too high.

Do I have that right?

 

Good research!

A lot of the LS forums are not very good anymore (it is kind of overrun by kids). I see most of the real drag guys go with turbos.

It is all about setup to get to 1000 rwhp (I’m on this mission with my goat and don’t want to go with turbos). Like in the mustangs Roush stage 2 is getting 750 RWHP. VMP performance claims 1000 HP on light modifications but they are actually doing a lot of mods. Both using Eaton’s tvs2650 (VMP may also be ported). These Gen5 Whipple 3.0L are looking amazing.

The Whipple rotors spin at different speeds that’s why they peak at 18000 RPM (I think Whipple uses the slower of the two rotors for this value, not sure). The tvs2650 (24000 RPM) just pushes more air through (that’s why people say they do not run out of steam). Pulley size is what controls that speed entering boost sooner and maxing out on SC RPMs. I think the Whipple actually pushes more air through at a lower SC RPMs. I need to look more into both systems, the 5.7 and how much CFM should move through it.

The TVS is a nice unit. Not many of us are going to drag the tundra (I like spinning circles in the dirt). Right now, IMO Harrop gives the better package for the tundra. I would love to see the Gen5 in the tundra. Both will put a smile on your face.

Correct it requires a tune. Dont think cali will let you get away with high flow cats. IDK about other states.

 

There are plenty of people running them on stage 1 with no issues, and the shops that install them haven’t raised any concerns on the AFRs they are typically running at with stage 1. I just would rather be safe than sorry personally, but chances are you wouldn’t have any issues especially if you’re not doing a ton of long/hard pulls every time you get in it. If you want the extra reassurance of a backup plan if it’s running lean though, you may want to wait. I’d imagine there will be support for 2019 soon, worst case VFtuner does support the 19s. Also keep in mind they have a long lead time. Mine took 5 weeks when I ordered it in June.

 

Not sure its worth it either. I recall reading that the stock (Edit: Gen 2.5) cats are basically high flows.

 

I found out I’m limited on tuning because of the stock air box with a drop in aem filter. What aftermarket cai is best with the Harrop?

 

Other than the Prospeed Intake I’m not sure what else would bolt up directly to the Harrop without some modifications. It’s not cheap but it probably is the best bet. If anyone else knows of one that bolts up easy to a Harrop I’d love to hear about it as well. https://www.prospeedautosports.com/...roducts/pro-tundra-cai?variant=37769359884454

 

Yeah I found it! It’s an inch bigger OD than stock. Whew 650 dollars though!

 

Can anyone here speak to this, and if it’s true?!?
https://www.tundras.com/threads/2019-up-hp-tuners.96152/#post-2438177
I wouldn’t know where to look

 

once we open the '20 ECU, I'd like to sit with the tuner & watch what variables can/should be changed. shit like this intrigues me.

as I mentioned before, as a daily driver, it's nearly perfect.

However, if I wanted more, I'd move to Stage 2. ~500whp.

Then, I'd like to see if the transmission map could be modified to hold the gear lock & shift a tad harder under load.

I'd also like to see true A/F ratios - if possible.

 

That’s what my plan is. Go down to a 80mm pulley and raise shift points to 6200-6300 rpms. I have to address my cai problem first though. Does anyone know if you have to do a lot of adjustments to like fuel and what not when you raise shifting rpms to 6200-6300? Just curious. I know I will have to adjust for the smaller pulley when I get it! Might be sometime next year I’ve already spent a good chunk on supercharger and tuning! Not to mention new wheels, tires, leveling kit, and shocks.