JBA Rant. Back to the drawing board with Headers (Kooks, ARH, AFE)

@UTTundra I have been communicating with them over email. Hopefully i can get these last 2 items resolved.

 

@GAknight I bought them from URD racing in January along with the 02 sims. I have reached out to Gadget (URD) and JBA at this point, but i am not sure it will go anywhere.

 

Just as an FYI, JBA quality issues have been brought up before. So it's not like this is the first time for this or something.

 

Well I am not really sure how to respond to that, but there should not be an expected failure 100% of the time with any product. JBA has reached out to me and we are working to reach an amicable solution.

 

Might be, but others have still had issues in the past w/them.

 

Even the authentic JBAs have their issues. Take this post for example: https://www.tundras.com/threads/jba-headers-quality-question.28791/page-2

They turned out to be legit. It's just that they were un-coated steel, so you could see all the issues much easier. The coated ones look better, but still have the same design.





ARH

 

Damn....
Almost makes me wonder if the front side of the primaries can be welded to the flange, then flat grind all the BS off and use a MLS gaskets

 

So far JBA is being helpful, but there is not a scenario where I don't have to fully remove these headers again unfortunately. Basically they want me to send them back to CA for inspection. I have asked them to give me their inspection criteria so I can assess if its even worthwhile to send them back. I've also asked them to send me new gaskets. If I cannot detect any defects per their criteria, i may just give it one more shot. I suspect it will be either warped or not flat though.

If that is the case i really need to have it back up and running ASAP. My truck was down for a month with the trans build. I cant wait 3 weeks without headers. In that case, i would really need to have replacement headers at that point. And I cant see any scenario where i am buying another set of JBA. So in that case i would have the ARH on hand ready to go if needed. Its a tough scenario and decision to make.

The big risk would be trusting that the JBA are true/straight and could seal after the third time and not having the backup headers ready to go.(ARH are built to order from what I understand)

 

Those look like a fucking 12 year old made them compared to the ARH's. What a Joke!

 

That's pretty tough to look at for sure. I asked JBA about this and they said its perfectly normal. They really should invest in automated welding or throw these things in a CNC mill for finishing. Theres no reason finished welds should look like that.

 

in bc was considering for my truck..

 

I’ve honestly never been impressed with JBA. I put them on my Silverado years ago and had nothing but problems. I had to replace header gaskets probably once a year due to leaks and had both of them crack at the collector at different times. The warranty was kind of a joke also. They discounted cost of retail which ended up being a couple bucks less than just buying new. Literally saved about $6 through “warranty” purchase.
I told myself never again and the build quality hasn’t changed looking at the pics.
The ARH’s look much better at the flange though.

 

This is an interesting topic for me, as I have been putting a lot of thought into the cost versus benefit of headers on my supercharged Tundra as well.

Quality fit and finish is of a high priority, mostly due to fitment and leak/durability concerns.


As for the power output on a supercharged engine, it is my understanding that there are a few issues that are often overlooked in the assumptions of what is going on with a boosted application versus a naturally aspirated one:

1) The scavenging effect, that is often referred to in regards to what is affecting the cylinder, also has a lot to do with what is going on with the intake side as well. In our application, the supercharger manifold significantly changes the intake side. Yes this does matter, as the results would be very different on something like a centrifugal type supercharger that uses the stock intake...even though we are still not comparing apples-to-apples when it comes to the application of boost.

2) Reduction in exhaust backflow typically results in a reduction in boost. I believe this is why we often see minimal peak gains with improved exhaust on the dyno. I've seen other 32-valve engines with positive displacement superchargers lose 2-3 psi with a long-tube header swap. Bringing the boost back up to the same as before the exhaust mods will result in a significant gain, no doubt.

3) Lastly, the peak HP numbers don't tell all. The power under the curve can be significant enough to change the way the vehicle runs. The torque curve is where long-tube headers tend to help any given engine.

Unfortunately, there just is not enough dyno data out there on our specific application, but I think we can compare and learn from others that are similar and have loads of data; like the mustang crowd.

 

I used to use headers on a lot of my rides over the years. Header manufacturing has slipped big time over the years and why I haven't considered headers for my Tundra. Those ARH' s are a sight to behold! The flange finish is just like the Hooker headers I liked to use back in the 70's. I'm quite frankly stunned with the poor quality build of those JBA's pictured here.

 

For what it's worth.... I have a set of jba headers on my Tacoma for 5 years plus they are ok and have not leaked... Coating sucks and workmanship was par..

I think when I do the my tundra it will be ARH if available for my first gen.

Honestly and imo. Anyone who promote jba headers is getting a big kick back on sale there quality is questionable now even more so.. there responding to the op raises some eyebrows.

 

It’s crazy to see all these issues with JBA.

I’ve personally installed over 40 sets. ZERO leaks. Zero need to redo.

My shop foreman has personally installed over 2p sets. Same as above. Zero leaks. Zero issues.

That said, when we started contracting headers installs to other shops, reputable shops in my area, nearly every set came back with issues.

When you don’t tighten them down properly, they leak. Plain and simple. And every set that had the issues AFTER they weren’t installed by me or my shop foreman personally were thought to be a header quality problem by the third party shops that we use to contract with.

That said, the raised port flange design is actually superior. Not inferior. It adds extra force specifically to the sealing face of the gasket. And having it thicker in some spots than in others doesn’t change that. The picture of the header which leaked, it was either a low spot. Or it wasn’t tightened down enough. And if it was a low spot, it would have to be a really bad low spot for it to leak because the raised flange design helps to seal up flawed flanges too.

I wouldn’t sell JbA if their quality was poor. Hand built, yes. And they look hand built too. At least the part up against the head where you never see after they’re installed.

Not only has my shop installed many many headers. But I’ve sold hundreds of pair of 6010 headers around the world since their inception. And my truck was their test/prototype set. I still run the very first set ever built on my truck with almost 100k miles on them. Same headers. Same gaskets. And never once re-torqued them, because it tightened them properly in the first place.

I’m not posting to get into a technical argument over the internet. I’m just presenting my experience of having a major role in putting these headers in a massive amount of people’s hands. If there was issues I would be the first to tell people so my name isn’t attached to crap.

These headers and their quality aren’t bad by any means. Matter of fact they’re very consistent and of great quality.

 

^^^ well said Keith

 

That’s fine. And I’m fully aware of your reputation and following. But simply put, this set I got was installed correctly 2x and both times got the same result. I’m convinced at this point it’s a manufacturing defect and I could give a shit less at this point since ARH are going in place once these are out.

 

Good to hear you are going with the ARH. The JBAs are peddled on here like skittles, but the ARH is a far superior product. Curious to hear your feedback on them once you do get them.

 

yikes

 

I know you said you dont want to get in a tech argument, but things need to be addressed here:

That said, the raised port flange design is actually superior. Not inferior.
-Only if it is properly designed. This is not properly designed. Furthermore, in order to maintain evenly applied pressure, there needs to be an equal distribution of force. Each primary only has 2 studs, so there are only 2 direct points of applied pressure, not a uniform distributed load. in between those applied forces you will see (by calculation) that there is a variation in the stress in the flange due to strain in the material. This is the same principle behind why you see multiple studs surrounding pressure containing flanges. You have to properly design flanges to seal evenly. Have you ever utilized the extra holes in the header? I thought about that, but didnt want to add to an already painful install.
And, superior to what? I would argue that MLS gaskets and flat flanges are superior. You hardly ever hear of OEM gaskets blowing out or leaking unless a stud has broken or backed off. There has to be a reason OEM uses this. It doesn't take long to pull up literally 100's of people having issues with JBA gaskets and quality issues.

It adds extra force specifically to the sealing face of the gasket. And having it thicker in some spots than in others doesn’t change that.
- This statement is not correct. Pressures is a function of force over area. This is a law of physics. Variation in area necessarily changes the applied pressure. Think of it this way. If a 100# lady steps on your back wearing tennis shoes, you prob wouldn't notice much. Now take the same 100# lady in high heels to do the same. You are def going to feel that more. This design would be improved greatly if the weld profiles were machined to a uniform thickness and radius.

The picture of the header which leaked, it was either a low spot. Or it wasn’t tightened down enough. And if it was a low spot, it would have to be a really bad low spot for it to leak because the raised flange design helps to seal up flawed flanges too.
- We will find out shortly when i get these out. I would also point out that this is the port closest to the cab and also the most accessible. tightening was not the issue. Out of all these PITA studs to tighten, this was by far the easiest to get to.

Finally, i would also add that the leaks are not terrible. They were only were detectable by low pressure testing the system for leaks. I just know that they will get worse over time and dont want to deal with it.

 

Sorry, that JBA flange looks like an abomination. I haven't seen a header flange like that in forever. If the flange thickness has enough meat and it's flat/true post production there is no reason to to make a raised flange, it's a band-aid design.

Side note, has anyone checked port match on these?

 

jbas installed, with oem gaskets 2008 NA..no issues

 

ARH headers showed up last week and will be going in as soon as i can make time to do so. Un-boxing the ARH is definitely exciting. These are a raw finish, so dont expect anything fancy. But they definitely look nice and certainly look like they will be alot easier to install. The very first thing i noticed is that they simplified the EGR plumbing. Instead of tapping each port for the EGR, they only utilize 1 port from the rear most cylinder on each side. The rest are simply blocked by the flange. This will certainly make the hardware more accessible. The JBA tap in to each port and that plumbing blocks 75% of the upper studs making the install a pain.

 

So is jba long tube headers really that bad in terms of quality. It looks like ARH is the way to go..

 

Anyone run Kooks? I have only found 1 clip online. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NLEd7YnwIfU

I had a ls1 back in the day and we all ran kooks?... just curious

I do have a DD exhaust 6 inch and I do enjoy it...

 

Did you get them installed yet? If so, what are your thoughts? At this moment my truck is dismantled, sitting on a lift at a reputable exhaust shop waiting for JBA to send a second set of LTs because the 1st set they was unable to even be installed without having to bore out the connection points (& they said doing that would void their warranty since they are ceramic coated). JBA's reaction to the complaint was "we've never heard of this problem before"....

 

I had the short headers on my 06 4.7 tundra and hated the quality control. I even called them and they said never heard it before and it shouldn't be a problem. Never again.

 

Yes I did install the ARH. I plan on making an additional post to cover that. The short review is that ARH is the way to go if you can. Most importantly, and ill cover this in my comprehensive review, is they do not leak at all using the low pressure/ soap water method i used on the JBA's. Ill post my review in a couple weeks.

 

I called Kooks and was quoted $3275 for their LTs and Mids. I am sure they are nice, but damn that is too much money for me. The sales guy told me they actually have never manufactured a production set, and it would take atleast 3 weeks for teh build. It was easy for me to pass on these. Funny thing is they called me back later to follow up (after i ordered the ARH). The lady i spoke to this time told me that price was not possible and that the most expensive it could get, with their upgraded gree cats, would be around $2500. Normal cats, would be around 2100. Too late i suppose