CDT Audio Center Fill?

Has anybody tried using the CDT CF-3 or CF-2 to replace the center speaker? It's a dual voice coil, I'm assuming the coils are isolated since it is marketed as a center fill, I've sent an email asking about that. I saw these earlier this year, but I wasn't interested for $200. I just saw that CDT has everything 50% off until tomorrow and thought they might be worth a shot for $100. I have/had the JBL system in my 2008, and I know most people say don't bother replacing the center dash speaker, but I'm curious.

I currently have the JL tweeters from Tech12 Volt for the center and dash and the Hertz Unos in the doors, but since I have not been able to install my amps yet, I get no vocals from the front, almost everything is coming from the rear coaxials. I'm sure this will improve after ditching the factory JBL amp, but I have put the factory center back until then.

I have also contemplated using Kicker KSC270s in the corners for a 3 way system, or using a Kicker KSC350 in the center, or both. I've been trying to resist the urge to buy anything until after I get the amps in and can listen to it properly, but my will power is wearing thin, especially with all the sales right now.

 

I guess I'll be the test dummy, I went ahead and ordered one. Now I need to find an amp to run it.

 

You’ll need a separate full range channel on an amp to power. Even so, you’re not going to get a true center channel function. Without left and right separation, it will just muddy the sound up and throw off the entire sound stage. It will literally just be another speaker in the middle of the dash. If your front sound stage is done properly with enough power, the center channel is useless.

I’m currently running a 3 way CDT setup for my front soundstage. There is no need what so ever for a center speaker.

 

I'm running an aftermarket Kenwood HU.
With my Alpine PDX V9 amp and Focal PS165FX in the front doors, I ditched the dash speakers altogether..

I tried the Tech12volts Kenwood sides and double tweeter center, but they didn't sound good with my Focals, so I sold them.
The front door components sound better on their own.
Front stage is fine.

Not saying saying the tech12volts stuff is bad, it just didn't fit into my setup..

 

I know there is no need for the center speaker, I'm just one of the stubborn people that want to use it because it's there, lol. If it sounds like garbage, I'll try to sell everything extra off.

I'm assuming/hoping that because it's a DVC running a left and right channel on separate voice coils, it will cancel out the differences and only play the common frequencies, which I think amounts to L+R, which is what I've read you need for center fill. This seemed way easier than trying to figure out how to run the dual tweeters I have, or a single 3.5" full range, as a resemblance of a center.

I was thinking about trying to run a 3 way system too, but I'd either have to start over and buy a pre made setup and deal with running speaker wire or piece buy a mid for the corner and figure out what the do for passive crossovers.

The smart thing to do woulda been to finish installing what I had and see how it sounded, before convincing myself I needed to change things, lol.

 

The problem you’re going to run into is by adding 2 more voice coils, you’re going to drop the ohm load on the amp for the front channels only. Depending on the amp, it may not even function and go into protection. I get your stubborn, but you’re wasting your time trying to get it to function. It’s not going to split the sounds like you envision it doing. Stereo channels have separate left and right channels. By sending a left and right channel to each coil, you’re going to be sending different signals to each voice coil. Speakers with dvc won’t function if each coil is getting a different frequency.

 

I was worried about 6 tweeters being too much and not having enough mids with only the Hertz 6.75 in the doors. When I originally installed them I lost all vocals from the front because I still have the factory JBL amp. Of course that got me thinking about replacing the corners and/or the center.

 

@Kybosh_ag the OP states you have/had the JBL system in my 2008.
SO which is it?
You do have it, or you have had it.
Also as you stated there is a reason most people say don't bother replacing the center dash speaker.

I was 'curious' too and it ended up being a waste of time and money.
I certainly didn't make any money reselling my Kenwood side and JBL center tweeters.

I'm not sure about your 2008, but my 2014 non-JBL had a DVC center.
The 3 dash speakers ran straight off the Entune HU.
Signal goes HU, side, then to center.
The doors ran off the underseat stock amp.
The sides were 6 ohm and the center was 8 ohm + 8 ohm.




I can understand you wanting to try it, I did it.
But it was a waste of time.
It sounded fine with the door components before I jacked with it.

I also dabbled with the idea of 3 way components and putting the mids in the side dash spot.
But that area is VERY small and it would take just the right mid speaker to fit in that space..

 

Rule of thumb for accurate front sound stage:

You have 2 ears, so you only need 2 tweeters... Front L&R (No rear speakers).

6 tweeters is a highschool system that when you hear it, you cringe. You don't want that.

Generally a 3 way front is the way to go.

For louder banger systems, you can add the rear speakers for more spl, but you lose the front focus.

 

Instead of trial and erring speakers, ditch the Entune and the JBL amp.
The problem with quality of sound isn't your speakers as much as it is the Entune and crappy stock amplifier..

 

This speaker will have two channels dedicated to it.

Granted I'm not sure exactly how DVC speakers work, I have seen them suggested as one option for center channels on some mobile audio forums. My assumption is based off my research that center fill is the common frequency shared with the right and left channels, represented as L+R, as opposed to L-R which, adding with adjusting timing, can be used for rear fill and widen the sound stage.
The reason a full range dvc speaker running both channels was suggested is that when common frequencies are being played in each voice coil, they would be in phase and you would hear those frequencies. When the channels are playing differing frequencies, the coils would play out of phase and cancel each other out. I'm sure it's not quite that simple, but it made sense.
I'm also assuming this is why they used dvc centers on some Tundras, pretty sure my JBL wasn't.

 

CDT should provide wiring diagrams, but if not you can email them your current system, and they may be able to provide you wiring examples. This site talks about center channels also. I ve not considered a center channel, but if I did I think would go the dsp route.

 

You can’t just hook up left and right channels into each coil. You would need a high end digital processor with time alignment and filters in order to get the speaker to actually function as a center channel. It’s very complicated and takes professional level equipment to set up and tune.

Even so, the best sound quality competitors don’t even use a center channel.

 

After reading several threads, (1, 2, 3), having a center channel sounds reasonable, but so much has to be considered. I ve always wanted surround sound system in truck, but I know so little about it. I would have a shop install it. Maybe someday...

 

Both, lol. The only JBL components left are the amp and wiring. I have not had time to finish my install, but Im in the process of building my amp rack for the two amps I have (4ch and mono), and will buy a third (either 2ch or 4ch).

On mine, all speakers and the sub are powered from the JBL amp under the passenger seat. The door tweeters and corner dash speakers share a channel, all others have their own channel.

 

That is one of the many sites I've been on. The bridging approach was what I was going to initially try, but I haven't been able to find a 4 ohm L-pad and I was worried about the final impedance. Then I figured I would buy an inexpensive, low power, bridgeable 2ch amp and bridge the channels with only the center and see what it sounded like. I thought Annie getting an amp with a mono switch, but I want sure if it was summed mono. Five Start Car Stereo has a video on youtube on how to sum channels with a $30 PAC LP7-4. I was also considering using a mini dsp with the center channel/rear fill plug in. I've been all over the place on what to try. Just going I didn't pick the worst option.

 

From what ive read about center channels I see a few common themes. First is they seem to work better with movies, and less with music, as dialog is usually directed to the center channel. Second, it helps to use speakers of identical design, and specifications as the left and right channel

 

Exactly. Stereo channels are simply left and right. Unless you’re running a highly complex summing processor in your vehicle that can split stereo into 3.1 or 5.1, the center channel is not going to function as a center channel in your typical home theatre setup.

 

Which is why I would use a dsp if I attempted to utilize a center channel. I imagine now a days that center channel info is there in the music. It s just a matter of reading it, and having the correct devices to process it. I think an appropriate dsp would be the best choice. BUT, considering the learning curve of center channels/surround sound systems, I will leave it to others to work it out. To me it s mind boggling. Take this comment for example:
"A center channel speaker actually messes with the location of the movies (steering issues and voices locked into the center instead of moving naturally with the movie)...
That sounds like it dates from the days of steering logic enhanced matrix surround (e.g. Dolby Pro Logic) when a phantom center channel could be an advantage. A phantom center required no steering logic laterally, thus maintaining stereo separation between L & R even in the presence of a C dominant signal. Conversely, a "hard" decoded center channel used steering logic to cancel the C signal from L & R, thereby reducing stereo separation between L & R in the presence of a C dominant signal. Such was most apparent when dialogue could cause stereo music to repeatedly "pump" from stereo to mono and back again. But, w/ the transition to multichannel discrete surround, the "hard" center channel no longer imposes that limitation."
Hehehe. That s crazy talk. I will stick to stereo

 

This is a thread talking about DVC speakers and summed mono. They are specifically taking about woofers or subwoofers, but I believe it should apply to all speakers. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/45171-dual-voice-coils-in-stereo

 

Well, as much as I wanted to try this speaker, customer support could not answer my questions at all, so I'm canceling my order. The guy simply repeated the same info about the different ways of wiring them over and over. I was asking about the sound output, and whether it was just outputting the full left and right channel from the speaker, which is not center fill.

 

It’s for the best. You would have been disappointed after all of it anyway. Use that money an upgrade your 2 ways to a 3 way set. All you need is a new crossover and the 2-3” mids.

 

That was my other thought, using the 2.75'' Kicker KSC270s. The Hertz Uno components came with an inline crossover/frequency blocker on the tweeter, so I was going to try to find out what frequency that is and bandpass the mid there and probably either 600Hz or 800Hz. I'd use my HU to high pass the woofer and then an inline passive low pass at whatever frequency I end up going with. I am using the factory wiring, so I was thinking about wiring the tweeter with the woofer so it would be easier to bandpass the mid/corner dash. My concern would be the mids not being timbre matched with the other components.

 

I agree with @Danman34 , I think you made good decision and not waste your time with the center channel. Running L and R channel to that single DVC speaker would not work like you envision. In my experience with years of different sound systems in all different types of cars and trucks, I found that keeping it simple sounds the best. The more complex you get with different components, amps, crossovers, processors, etc just makes things more complicated for no reason. And more chance to induce unwanted noise in your system. In my younger days I thought the more speakers = better sound. I had a 6 pack of 6x9 in the rear deck of my car.(old school bass heads know what I'm talking about lol) Tweeters in doors and front and back pillars, four amps, and two 15s in trunk (basically speakers everywhere I could stuff one lol) I thought I was king of sound but it sounded like $h1t. I would recommend to keep it simple, Start with good head unit, nice front 2way or 3way components for good front staging. Put simple coaxial in rear just for rear fill, Nice 5ch amp to have good power for front components and less power to rear coaxial. And add a single sub or maybe two depending how much bass you want. That is all you need. There is no need to have 38 speakers in your car like a lot of new luxury cars have. It's just for marketing to one up each other. If you decide to use a processor, it will be more complicated to tune, adjust for time alignment, etc. You have some good ideas, I'm curious to see what you decide to do and keep us updated on the outcome

 

I was going to suggest the CDT Unity drivers. They are supposed to be very good, and for a 2in driver the specs are awesome. Frequency response:200Hz-33kHz

 

This is what I currently have:
Pioneer AVIC-8400NEX w/Maestro
Hertz Uno 170 components in front
Hertz Uno 170 coaxials in rear
Two 10" JL W1s in a Tech12Volts box
Memphis PR1x1000
Memphis MC4.75
Tech12Volts JL C1 corner/center dash tweeters

I am currently making the amp rack to install behind the back seats, so everything is still running off of the factory JBL amp. U4 think that is the real reason I have been concerned with the center channel, I lost front vocals when using the JL tweeters in all three dash locations due to the JBLs crossover. I put back the factory center to "fix" it for now. Im sure ditching the factory amp will eliminate that issue.
I don't intend to use a DSP, any crossovers will be via the HU, amps, or passive inline.

 

The reason your front stage is suffering is because you have very little power going to them. The factory amp is junk. Put a real dedicated amp on your highs and you’ll be in much better shape.

 

The factory amp will be gone as soon as I finish the amp rack. If I use mids in the corners I will be buying a third amp for them. For now I will run the tweeters off the front channels with the door woofers.

I was surprised how much changing the HU woke up everything, but there still wasn't much coming from the factory 8"sub. Putting all the tweeters in the dash made me realize why James (Tech12Volts) only suggests them if you are replacing the factory amp. I didn't really understand that choice over the Kenwood mids he also recommends. It's because the factory jbl amp low passes the door woofers too low for vocals, with the mids in the corners and the factory amp, I think you would still get plenty of vocals in the front. I was getting vocals from the rears, and I almost didn't notice enough to care, but it was extremely obvious when I was on a Bluetooth call, the volume was too low even with both the Bluetooth volume maxed out on the HU and my phone. That's when I started trying to figure out the center channel. I'm assuming the amp directs most of that to the front channels.