UAW workers launch unprecedented strike against all Big Three automakers

blessed is the peacemaker.

 

It doesn’t make them absolute, either. So, again, whatever. If we want to have civil conversation with open minds, great. I’m all for it. If we are going to have an absolute type of mindset, I’ll just end up yanking out what hair I have.
This, to me, is the biggest issue confronting us. People grab a side and will defend their position to no end. I don’t get it. There is always two sides and always a way to be open and see things for what they really are.

 

This^^^^
When I was up in Alaska we had a critical on-site job at Fort Greeley. An Army anti-ballistic missile site among other kuul things. The Army was building an EMP proof generating facility. We were contracted to calibrate all the installed process control equipment. Union contractors wouldn't let us on the _ARMY_ site! They wouldn't let us enter the building! It wasn't their building and they had ZERO authority to keep us off the site. There were several other non-union contractors authorized to work at the site besides us that were also getting harrassed by the union asswipes. We had authorization and all the required passes and badges. Our boss made a call to the Army site director that contracted us and explained that we were being kept out of the site by the union guys. He was down there in 5 minutes and chewed some serious union ass. Once we got set up we found that several process controllers had been tampered with. We knew who did it. Fuck unions. At least that one. Our company is the largest calibration provider in the country. Great benefits, Great pay. Generous paid vacation. We hire trained and qualified people. We are nationally accredited and our technical staff must be certified. We have very little turnover. High employee retention. We don't need union protection. There are decent non-union positions out there and I'm sure there are some decent union jobs out there.

 

I think you are assuming that anything negative about unions is an absolute mindset. It's not. I am 100% skeptical and distrustful of unions because of my personal experiences with them, but I don't think that all of them are 100% useless or bad. Look at @NWPirate and his union situation. It's fantastic. I recognize that there are some that aren't absolute horrors, but you are still being dismissive of ANY negative comments. You are the one who is coming off as working in absolutes. Any stories of negative union dealings that have been given have been met with "whatever" and followed with "you just don't know how good they are for you and all the other people" comments from you. You are assuming that to have a negative view of a union we must just not be seeing the big picture. That comes off as extremely arrogant and will only cause people to dig in their heels. You are making it highly unlikely for anyone to consider what you are saying as valid because you are automatically declaring anything they say as invalid.

 

It's all good brother. He showed up to a shooting range with a dull butter knife and tried picking a fight. I think everyone in the room saw that, so I didn't feel the need to fill him fulla holes.

 

I didn't have to post my Alaska union experience but I thought a good retort was in order. Ha!

 

I personally hope the strike breaks the big 3. But I realistically don’t think it’ll happen. However much money the corporations lose will be reimbursed by the GOV (meaning us/taxpayers) in return for endorsements, votes and huge donations to campaigns.
I used to work in non union sheet metal shops. Someone mentioned that union workers would stick to safety requirements and non union would not. In my experience this is not true. OSHA sets the safety requirements ( due to people doing dumb shit) and all employers are subject to this, huge fines in found to be non compliant.

After swinging a hammer for ten years I got a GOV job. It was a union job, not required but it included liability insurance so it was worth it. I’ve seen the union protect some people from some serious disciplinary and discrimination punishments from management. Some were very serious issues that resulted in large payouts and promotions, in those cases, they were deserved. Sexual misconduct, discriminatory acts, and personal vendettas. The union worked in those instances.

That being said, I’ve seen the union defending some very lazy employees from being disciplined when it was warranted. Also have seen union filing frivolous grievances against management for an employees perceived failure for promotion or assignment to something they’ve applied for. This is the norm, in my opinion of union grievances.
In some cases the employee gets the position and proves woefully unqualified for said position.
In 25 years as a union member in good standing, and having never used union representation (if I messed up, I owned it and took my lumps), or felt it necessary to file a grievance, the union was only good for the insurance and it was a tax write off.

I think that for the good that the union actually did in serious cases, it was more a waste of time with frivolous claims.

That’s just my experience and opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

 

I had a couple coworkers who decided to stay up in Alaska. They both signed on to a great Native union job. I forgot the name of the union but the union has a long term contract with the US Air Force at Elmendorf AFB providing calibration techs to work at the base Metrology lab. I'd do it but sort of stuck and near retirement anyways. My beef was specifically with the union contractor assholes up at Ft Greeley. Dirtbags. BTW , they were standing around a lot. Hard to get much done harassing non-union folks and tampering with equipment.

 

The site I worked at previously unionized in the 90s because of how badly they were being treated by management. The site I'm at now is half union and half non.

Working with the non union operators is a treat. They actually work with you on solving problems and contribute positively to troubleshooting or improvement opportunities. The vast majority of the union operators carry the "us vs. them" mentality and only identity problems (or more likely complain about them) and then expect "management" to magically fix everything instantaneously.

 

Well, that's the real core of the problem with this UAW situation. Folks like you and "stories".

 

That's exactly my thought too. I didn't like the us vs them mentality. It's dumb and pointless.

 

A factual first hand story for folks like you and me.

 

At the end of the day. Both the union bosses and the corporate executives of the big 3 are scumbags. The unfortunate thing is that the executives would love to move their entire production to china and mexico

 

fellow sheet metal worker, nice
I was in the sheet metal union for a few years, they helped with schooling, our wages were generally higher than others and only a few in the shop acted like union folk so it was nice. 2 years in I was laid off, cashed out my pension and got $5k or so in my pocket.
Overall not a bad experience.
I am also now in a government funded institution as a unionized employee. Pay is lower but cannot beat the “lifestyle”.
Cannot get my friends to apply as they all make more than I and their lifestyle reflects that.
Money does solve some problems, but it sure does not buy happiness.

 

I’m not being dismissive at all. I understand there are shit unions out there. What I don’t like is the absolute comments. People don’t say “some unions”, they say “unions”. That is an ignorant comment based on a lack of facts.

 

That is a fact!

 

in the eyes of union folks, in y'all's opinion, has the UAW made the US auto sector better or worse?

and,

is asking for a considerable raise in the middle of an economic storm the "most right" thing to do?

 

I think you are reading more into it. I have said "unions suck" because in my experience most do, but you getting mad about interpreting that as an absolute is ridiculous if you are also going to say that "whatever" isn't being dismissive.

 

Some states have set it up where it is very difficult to run without unions. That is another example of unions being forced on people. I can't speak to all the other professions, but unionized engineers make up only a tiny fraction of engineers, and even a smaller percentage of licensed engineers. These excerpts gives a good explanation why:
"The National Society of Professional Engineers, as well as other national engineering organizations, has long-held that professionalism and unionism are incompatible and has discouraged the union approach as a proper method for engineers to seek the elevation of their economic or professional status. In view of the extensive NSPE literature on this subject, it is not necessary to repeat the many reasons for this opposition to unions for engineers.

Standing alone, it is clear that the Canons and Rules are opposed to the basic concept and approach of unions for engineers who have a professional responsibility. Experience has demonstrated, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an engineer with a union-minded attitude cannot and does not regard his relations with his employer as that of a faithful agent or trustee. And it is likewise clear that such an attitude entails misunderstanding of the engineering profession by the public and is in conflict with the engineer's duty to maintain the highest standards of the profession and regard the public welfare as paramount to his own. . ." From https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethi...-review-cases/engineer-membership-labor-union

And "If your boss can automate your job, you’re in danger of becoming a commodity. Then, your engineering work is no different from the folks on the assembly line, and you get paid a fixed fee. But let’s be real: most engineers don’t do the same task on repeat. Instead, they analyze, process, research, and solve problems. Each project demands their full attention. Take the Golden Gate Bridge, for example. Designing it was a whole different ballgame compared to a bridge over a calm river. In fact, many folks thought building the Golden Gate Bridge was a pipe dream. But I’ve talked about the engineering magic behind it. The point is, you can’t just swap one chief engineer for another and expect the same outcome. Engineering work needs unique qualities that vary from person to person:

1. Lightning-fast spatial reasoning
2. Stellar memory capacity
3. Top-notch pattern recognition

So, an engineer’s economic output isn’t set in stone. The more skilled an engineer, the better the end product. You can’t put a fixed price on the lead engineers who’ll safely rocket us to Mars, especially since we’ve never done it before. It’s like a brilliantly talented artist with out-of-this-world creativity we’ve never seen before. In a nutshell, creativity doesn’t come with a price tag. In the same way, you can’t slap an economic value on engineering because, at its core, engineering is a wildly creative profession.

That’s why great engineers can name their price in the open market, and it’s a big reason why many engineers don’t want to unionize." from https://engineercalcs.com/can-engineers-unionize/

I understand that historically, unions were established to protect workers. And your passion in defending them tells me that this is still the case in some instances. But the unions I have had direct experience with only demonstrated all the bad characteristics that people on this thread have talked about. Teachers unions, the local electrical union, the union at the first plant I worked in - all were demonstrably damaging to quality workers while protecting workers who do not produce, or even do demonstrable damage. I'm glad you feel like your union protects you.

Yes, I can name several dozen union electricians who don't produce a thing that have been with the local union for YEARS, in spite of being caught cheating on time cards, smoking in Class 1 Div 1 (explosive) areas on the job, hiding to avoid work on the job, etc. I know this because I had to fire them off of my project (they still maintained their union status) when they were caught.

 

Great post. I could site numerous examples where unionized employees lost their jobs due poor performance, stealing, abusing time, etc.
That’s not really the point and won’t be helpful. You’re right, I firmly believe in the need for unions in certain circumstances and for the right groups.

 

Whatever is definitely dismissive.
I’m far from mad. Allowing people on a truck site to affect my emotions in that capacity isn’t going to happen. Interested enough to respond to this thread is more where I am.

 

I'm glad you're not angry, as communication usually degrades when anger rises.

 

That sounds familiar. When we throw guys off our site due to breaking safety rules, they get to go back to the union hall and wait for the next job at a site that's less "restrictive"

 

My apologies. I contradicted myself.

 

No worries. We all do it when we are passionate.

 

I'm just glad this didn't turn into another lava pit incident...

 

Bring it, Mr. Ron.

 

Dance off, 3pm, Friday, parking lot.

 

Make it 4pm and I’ll be there. Be warned, I did break dance back in the day.

 

Beware, "break dancing" takes on a whole new meaning as the years pass.