Your thoughts on the lack of workers- Great Dave Ramsey with Mike Row video

Some long ass winded responses! It's really simple. . . You either have work ethic or you don't. Remember we are nothing but animals, the more given to us without effort, the lazier we get. Why do you think the first thing you see when you drive into Jellystone Park is a sign that says DON'T FEED THE BEARS !

 

Yup.

 

Well stated.

Politics should be discussed somewhere, as it is very important.

But I see your point. It doesn't belong here.

 

Gen X here, and I truly do feel sorry for Gen Z and those who come after. They've had absolute shit childhoods compared to mine, and post adolescence isn't/won't be as good for them either. I honestly think Gen X is the last generation to have a childhood where a kid could just be a kid, and one could make the transition to adulthood / self sufficience relatively easily without being saddled with decades of debt. I'm afraid the mistakes made are leading us back to 1929, and Gen Z or later will bear the brunt of that downfall. They quite possibly will experience what my great grandparents (and grandparents as children) went through.

I'm glad I was born no later than I was. I certainly wouldn't want to be a kid or transitioning into adulthood right now.

 

Growing up without the internet had its perks.

 

Amen to that. Computers and the internet had so much potential to make life awesome ... but us humans always manage to find a way to fork it up.

But when you have companies that design their tools for addiction, and use complex algorithms to ensure they're as addictive as possible, humans never had a chance...

 

Agreed. I'm old enough to remember watching Al Gore invent the internet (heh) and remember a 'childhood' (or being young) without and with the internet. It's why I've taken one hell of a hard line on my son not accessing social media, or having a cell phone 24/7, etc.

And the more time goes by the more he tells me he appreciates it. The other day he came to me asking if he could talk to me; I said sure.

He told me that growing up (he's at the wise old age of 14 lol) he wasn't popular, was a bit nerdy, etc. In the last year he's shot up (he's 14 and he's as tall as I am), and leaned out, and he's the same kind, energetic kid he's always been. I've taught him to be honest and forthright...and it turns out that girls are finding out how much they appreciate that. In a year flat he went from not being able to find a girl to save his life (which I'm totally fine with) to having to turn them down. LOL! He understands it's because he ACTUALLY knows how to treat women, how to listen, how to care for people, etc.

 

Your reading assignment for the day. (Disclaimer: work, don't work, IDGAF)

Excerpt:

Here is a common complaint I hear from my fellow millennials. “Yeah right baby boomers, you don’t have it as hard as we did. The American dream is dead, just look at how much homes cost now.” This is usually followed by some stat about how their grandparents only paid $20,000 for their first home, how a pack of gum used to cost a nickel, and how things were so much simpler before we had the entire world’s library at our fingertips.

https://mymoneywizard.com/millennials-home-prices-today/

 

That's a really interesting article. It made me think about how much space we use in our 1500sqft house. We have 2 bedrooms, 1.5 bathrooms and an unfinished basement which has our gym and my outdoor gear "room". We spend most of our time in the kitchen and living room as well as the garage and on the deck. We have no dining room, and the bedrooms are for sleeping. I honestly don't think we really need a bigger house. 1 more bedroom and full bath would be nice once little AK gets older, but I can put that in when I finish out the basement.

We'd actually prefer be on more land than have a larger home size.

 

Every time we bought a home the realtors and mortgage brokers have tried to convince us to get a bigger more expensive house. They're always so concerned about our comfort and best interest.

I don`t expect many to read this though. It doesn't support the narrative.

 

That's actually exactly what we did 15 years ago. We bought a house with 1100 sq ft, a basement, and a carport (attached, fully trussed roof, on a construction grade slab) with 2.5 acres. I won't tell you exactly what we paid, but it was well south of $80K. At the time we couldn't afford much more than that.

(Edited to add: We chose to buy due to the land, the cost, and the fact that it was built to VA standards and therefore has 6" walls.)

Now we easily can....but we did a $40K addition 7 years ago which has already been paid off, and have finished the basement. Refinanced to do that; we owe maybe 1/3 of what it's worth, AND it'll be paid off in 6 years...and you would not BELIEVE how many people/realtors are begging us to sell and build a new house. We're like "Uh, no...we know the build quality of this house, we know all of its issues (which were few) and have fixed them; and because it doesn't cost us a lot, we can afford to pay other stuff off quickly."

(Edited to add: We have, of course, upgraded stuff; we've installed new carpeting, finished the basement, installed new windows, refinished the bathrooms, etc....and did it all with cash.)

 

Damn, those are cheap numbers. I'd kill to grab 2.5ac for under $80K. LOL. I just looked and our house is actually just right around 1100sqft, not the 1500 I thought, so it's probably pretty close to yours in size. We do have an attached 23x24ft garage though. We could probably sell for in the mid $300K range.

 

Well, I'll grant you that I live in the middle of nowhere (Ozarks, in Missouri) so the market is vastly different than it is many places...but that's the thing - even for where I live, and for what we own and make, our debt to income ration is VASTLY more favorable than many, simply because we bought what we could very reasonably *and* easily afford on one income in 2008. Now I make 2x that AND my wife makes 2x that...but as the saying goes, ya never forget where ya came from. Literally the only thing that would drastically change our standard of living is if we BOTH lost our jobs.

 

Sorry, but that is mostly propaganda and creative misdirection. Their stats are wrong for starters. The price is the median of all homes, but the size they quote is *new* homes only. The size of all homes has gone up, but not nearly that much. Back in the "boomer days" (40s-50s) starter houses were the main *new* market, which of course it would be since marriage and making babies were on the rise. These houses were small because young people don't have a lot of money. And unlike now, the price of land and fees was usually modest, so a smaller house was considerably cheaper.

In this day *new* houses are heavily biased towards wealthy buyers... who are usually boomers... now buying their "dream home". When a lot and fees are $200k, it's much easier to sell a new 3,000 sq ft house for $500k, than a 1500 sq ft for $350k... more for your money. Starters homes are rare, and they wouldn't be cheap anyway. The boomers have equity and income. Young people aren't buying these... rather they'd be happy to have one of those little houses built in 1950 if they could afford it... but the price of one of those 73 year old houses has gone nuts, too.

Including the covid spike, the real median home price has climbed 80% since 1997. That's a hell of an increase in only 26 years. From '54 to '97 (43 years!) it had been pretty consistent, rising only 3%.

https://dqydj.com/historical-home-prices/

Here is a look at rents too. In that same 26 year period, they've gone up >180% in constant $!
https://managecasa.com/articles/monthly-rent-prices/



Millennials do have a reason to complain. It was easier for boomers (I'm 62)... but the prior generation who started working in the mid 30s to early 50s really had it best... they experienced massive improvements in real pay and living standards. The middle class has been stuck since the late 70s. Real median living standards climbed from the early 30s to late 70s by nearly 200%! And hardly any since with the poorer cohort losing ground.

 

I won't get into a battle of statistics because frankly I don't care about any of this enough to spend the time and effort. I live in a gated community of "cottages" full of Boomers that sold their dream home McMansions to live in a house that is much smaller and with less maintenance to simplify and spend time and money on other things. So your assertion that Boomers are buying bigger houses might be true but it's not the reality I live.

The people I know personally buying the McMansions where I live are young professionals.

You know what they say about statistics. And whether or not people have reason to complain, the thing I know for certain is they are really good at it.

 

My personal anecdote. I got married and moved to L.A. (east side where it gets hot and smoggy in summer), after college from rural IL. This was in '82. I knew houses were expensive, but I thought I'd buy a little cheap house, nothing fancy... ha, ha! Oh, we could afford it (barely) but nothing was cheap. Note, my parents in IL built a 2200 sq ft house with full basement in'72 for $24k all up. I was looking at 1200 sq ft houses built in the 50s that needed a little work for $150k. Neighborhoods just nice enough to be viable. We rented and saved money. A couple years later there was a housing slump, and we looked further east and bought one of those old little houses (with some commute now) for $92k. A year after that ('85) we sold it for $109k. The people who bought it from us sold it for $180k a year later. I looked it up recently, and it last sold for >$900k. From the stats and street view it looks like the same damn house.

CPI has gone up 2.98x from 1984 to now, so the price has only about tripled in real terms. This hasn't happened everywhere, but it isn't that unusual for cities with a good economy.

 

We all must make choices where to live and how much location is worth to us. Supply and demand in areas where land is limited for development. Part of why you are seeing the population surge in TX although it's getting more and more expensive there for sure.

I live in an area where income is below the National average and real estate is relatively inexpensive. And yet there are billionaires that choose to live amongst us! Heck, Warren Buffett chooses to live in Omaha in a pretty small house and seems pretty content! Weird, right?

 

I live in a tourist town that is admittedly a skewed demographic, but nobody is building small anything here now. And yes, income is below the national average as well (just looked it up, 72% of US median household income). The golf resort 2nd homes are booming, $2M+. The people buying those are not young. I moved here because it was nice and affordable, but it isn't affordale anymore. Young people with regular jobs have it tough. In 2012 we bought a 1700 sq ft house built in 1970 (all original. for $160k. It's now supposedly worth 2x that, and beat up single-wides are going for more than we paid.

There is a legit economic beef... but I think the lack of motivation is more due to other factors. The bar has been raised to "make it" at the same time that many young people seem unwilling to stick with anything, or focus. I think social media has addled their brains a bit.

One factor currently that I don't see mentioned anywhere, is the effect of drugs on the post-covid inablity of businesses to hire people. Here, many fast food places are advertising $15/hr and can't hire. A few years ago they only had to pay $8! Why?

Just a theory, but... let's say that a decent number of people working lower level jobs were functional addicts, prior to covid. I know a few in that category; booze, meth, opiates. Functional means they party hard but in moderation; they sober up for work, and can hold a job. Now with covid, you take away their job, and their social life... and give them a lot more free money than they made while working! If you didn't realize this was happening, I assure you it's for real. Federal and state unemployment added up to more than they made working if they were under ~$40k/yr. Plus the random cash giveaways. Everyone at my wife's business made more to stay home and some >3x as much! A good % of functional addicts became dysfunctional, and can't hold a job anymore. Hello homeless camps... if they don't have family or friends to take them in.

 

Honestly I blame the builders and the people who want enormous houses so they can keep up with the jones (even if they don't need that much space), they all build these Mcmansions which not many first time, or even second time home buyers could afford, even with two incomes, and now that's all we have as options on the market. I know this is the trend because that is legit all I see for new construction on the real estate listings... either a 55 plus mini mansion that costs like 600K plus, or a giant SFH that costs close to 1 million. These are the folks I hear calling the DR show asking how they should proceed to get out of their house poor mansions that they mistakenly bought, some are even calling to legit complain that they don't feel "homey" because they are too spread out! People like myself, who got lucky and bought a smaller older home in 2016 (before the prices skyrocketed and there were still smaller homes available), aren't going anywhere soon because the interest rates are too high, I am NOT paying for someone else's shitty credit, and most importantly; affordable and smaller homes are rarely available now !! Most people, myself included are staying put because there is no place to go, even if you do want to move, unless you are UPSIZING significantly (I honestly LOVE my house and would never dream of selling it even if I could get a newer home)!! A friend of mine has a wife with a chronic disease process, who is now wheelchair bound, his plan was to buy a plot of land and build a single level ranch so that she could get around easier.... Not a single builder would take on the job because they said it wouldn't be profitable enough for them, they would build it if it was a MUCH larger two level home though! It's a disgrace to me that we went from the 1980s and even the 90s where a 3 bed/1 or 2 bath 1600 sq ft house was just fine and dandy for a family, to now we need 4-5 beds, 3 plus bathrooms, 2 offices, 14 separate family spaces, a kitchen the size of Texas, and 15 garage spaces! If you truly need that much space for the average size family you need a Divorce, to get rid of crap, or to spend more time outside... maybe all three! I think the getting rid of crap now is the most important, in the Northeast we have a new storage building going up like weekly, they are ugly eyesores!!

I think maybe every generation thinks it will be impossible for them to ever own property, I did when I was in my late teens early twenties, but I think it has more to do with your income when you are that young, and how low it is generally speaking... young adults don't often imagine the bigger picture and part of that is that you will hopefully be earning way more money in the future. However, I do think the younger generations will have more trouble, as our older houses eventually become tear downs over the next few decades, and all that is left is 55 plus condos or 3000 sq ft homes that only the upper class will be able to afford. I am truly hoping that eventually builders will rethink things, and go back to building more manageable and affordable homes!


-T

 

https://youtu.be/oqVSLuIEKOw

 

And that's where the real kick in the nuts comes in. Take rruff's place in CA (let's assume he had stayed put). He budgeted, bought a place he could afford, and simply because his neighbors all agreed to / could afford to pay more, HE gets taxed at $900k valuation for that same little house he paid $92k for. I hate the current property tax assessment system for this very reason - that "valuation" doesn't mean you can afford (nor that you bought) a $900k property. It doesn't mean your employer is paying 10x more than when you started. That "valuation" doesn't put a single damn dime into your bank account until you sell - tax it then! Taxing people out of the homes they are still living in is Bullshit of the highest odor!

 

Actually CA passed Prop 13 sometime in the 70s, which limited property taxes and even dialed it back a few years for people who already had houses. It didn't effect new buyers, though. I was paying more in taxes than people I knew with houses valued at 3x as much. Not only did they get the benefit of getting into the market earlier because they were older, they paid less tax as well. Does that seem fair? Should be illegal to vote yourself a benefit and stick it to those who come later.

Property taxes are meant to pay for services. It makes no sense that if property values double, the cost of those services doubles as well. That's just silly. Lobby to have the rates reduced. Or better yet, make a code that adjusts taxes automatically based on CPI rather than value, and apply this to everyone.

I don't feel sorry for anybody's tax bill going up when the value of their property has increased 10x... since they are rich. Get a fricken equity loan and use that if you have to. I'd gladly pay the tax bill if I still owned that place! If I didn't want to, I could pocket $810k and buy somewhere else... or just use the one time capital gains exclusion and retire, and pay no tax on it.

 

I won't speak for everyone, but not counting exactly one couple I know, *EVERY* young couple I know has purchased houses 2-3x what we purchased ours for.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is arguing that Gen-Z doesn't have it harder from a house purchasing POV. Rather, I think (going back to the original intent of the discussion) we're arguing that no, the cause of all of today's ills and the bane of every Gen-Z'ers existence is not just 'OK boomer.' Find me a demographic generation and I can find you something they SERIOUSLY jacked up.

In other words, people just suck all around.

 

The default behavior for humans is trash.

It takes effort to do better, which requires incentive and initiative.

It's certainly not easy.

 

Need more info... like when did you buy? Are decent smaller and cheaper houses available? Do they have high incomes and can easily afford it?

The people who have the power to "jack things up"... are few, and they like it the way it is. Blaming national and international policies on voters is shear nonsense. People are not very bright as a rule, easily manipulated, and just don't have the time nor are they inclined to get into the details. These days it seems that nearly everyone is plugging into a virtual world of whatever propaganda appeals to them, and the younger people most of all.

Gen Z seems to think that people who are listless and uncommitted to full time careers are entitled to high salaries or something. And focusing on shaming those they disagree with, gender identity, and trigger warnings, are going to... help...? That sounds like people who never grew up and want to remain children. Good luck "fixing" the issues with that attitude...

 

1. 2008.
2. Yes, similar houses are indeed available nearby.
2. Middle-class, and I dunno about 'easily.' Both work. I know for a fact they make less than I do and less than my wife does...but they own bigger houses, more land and drive 'nicer' vehicles than I do.

Well, yeah, that's kinda my point. Don't get me wrong - like I (think I) said above, find me a generational demographic and I'll find you ways they're seriously screwing something fundamental up. Boomers are known/stereotyped for blaming sh*t on younger generations (and sometimes rightfully so); Gen-X/Y/Z/millennials are known for finding fault with what previous generations did, and 'how easy' they had it, and extrapolating that out to be applied to EVERYONE from that demographic (and again, sometimes rightfully so). If we all just sit around blaming sh*t on others instead of working with them on issues and the like, nothing will ever get done.

 

Even in the most outrageous fantasy where we agree on reality, and realize that we have way more in common than not... nothing will get done. There'd be less useless conflict and division though, which would be nice.

 

My older daughter is a teacher and mandated 15 minutes of electronics free time during her home room period. At first, the kids were at a total loss. Over the course of a couple of weeks, the kids became accustomed to the situation, and many started enjoying it. Many simply took the entire period as study time, reading time, a few even used the time to enjoy a little creative outlet by writing or drawing. Part of her Masters research centered on the damage that constant online time, instead of real human interaction, can do.

 

Oh, I believe it 100%. My son has actually thanked me - as have his teachers - for limiting his online time. They tell me the difference between my son and his peers - in daily interaction, reasoning skills, etc. - is pretty stark.