Those poor guys

https://youtu.be/KvGRkxSXwhA

The machining debris is a ruse, it always has been. The tear downs show blued and spun rod bearings.
That makes me lean heavily towards detonation. If you look in the video here you can notice a pattern,
1) towing
or
2) larger wider tires than stock
Makes me think high loads, low RPM, low throttle, building boost without throttle input due to load and running a super lean condition causing detonation (preignition)

 

something something

“best gen”

something something

 

Here ya go

 

With the aerodynamics of the newer trucks, the 8speed, maybe they should go back to the ole 2UZ-FE. I bet it gets about the same fuel mileage as the twin turbskis and doesnt blow up at 1200 miles like some of these new 2025s in the video.

 

3 pages
5 bans
1 fight irl

 

You're early, we are on page 1 but the party hasnt really kicked off yet. Lets see how it goes.

 

And yet, there is a picture of a brand new short block with debris in the oiling passages, but sure, we'll believe this 1st Gen owner.

 

Can we see it?

 

2025 Tundra Engine is down! | Toyota Tundra Forum

 

why not?
you privy to top secret internal toyota info?
Why are the rod bearings blue, spun, and toasted in every engine tear down i have seen so far? Are you confident its not preignition? And even if it was machining debris inside the oiling ports, wouldnt they have changed their machining procedures by now after publicly announcing that was the problem? So why are the new ones still failing? Better yet, even if it was machining debris (metal flakes) in the oiling ports, why are the rod bearings and crank bearings blue and spun? Why are these engines blowing rods out the block? You wanna know what blows rods out the side of blocks? Detonation. You wanna know what mushrooms the rod bearings out and causes them to spin? Detonation. You wanna know what generates metal shavings in the oil filter? Detonation that mushrooms the rod bearings out and causes the rod bearings to spin in their journals.

Are you still confident its machining debris from when the block was machined? Every single metric of evidence points to preignition.

 

https://youtu.be/VBRS_cffEhM?t=1453

time stamped for your viewing pleasure
why are the piston skirts eating the cylinder walls on this 2024 model?
ohhh... betcha never guess.... Yep... Detonation...

 

This is the 2024 with the new fancy bearings with the coating
AND.....
rod bearing blued most likely from detonation that nobody wants to admit, again time stamped for your viewing pleasure.

https://youtu.be/VBRS_cffEhM?t=2100

 

AH man.... more toasted bearings that certainly generate metal shavings and debris in the oil filter and oil pan, again, time stamped for your viewing pleasure.
I think its safe to say the metal debris being found in engines upon tear down is NOT from the machining and assembly, but a by-product of the engine coming apart internally.
Again, pretty much all the evidence points to pre-ignition / detonation along with a design flaw that allow the bearings to spin in the journals which makes things worse.

https://youtu.be/VBRS_cffEhM?t=2382

 

Yup. Not sure why there is another thread for it.

 

I just finished the whole first thread, linked above.
Still surprised not a single person feels the way i do, i still feel the same with all the info provided and given across this and other forums. I still strongly believe it is preignition from crappy gas, creeping boost with no throttle input, lean conditions causing the preignition. After the preignition happens the bearings get beat out, which is likely the cause that #1 crank bearing gets mushroomed and beat down and worn and pushed out. Notice in the video above timestamped where the rod bearing was blued, notice "WHERE" it is? Its on the leading edge of the rod bearing which would be when / where the piston is nearing TDC, and preignition would forcefully stop the upward travel of the piston therefore knocking the rod bearing out and flattening it and bluing it. This leads to the rod bearing getting mushroomed outward (which i have seen in other videos). Also the piston skirts slapping the cylinder walls, from preignition causing the piston to abruptly stop its normal travel up and down in the cylinder and kick sideways as the cylinder pressure causes preignition. Since the valves are not open yet, the cylinder pressure forces the piston to kick outward which causes the skirt to contact the cylinder wall.

Sure old hondas running at and above redline will do the same but thats a different reason, the piston is actually trying to run in a circle its spinning so fast. In the Tundras case every single piece of evidence points to detonation as the root cause for the problems people are having. This is likely due to tuning and crappy fuel.

The SxS that are now turbo and using electronic solenoids on the wastegate can and do also have the same issues ESPECIALLY after they have been tuned for higher boost. The wastegate spring isnt capable of adequately controlling higher boost higher than it was designed for, this causes the wastegate solenoid to often "hunt" to try to control boost off throttle. In the OEM mapping on the Can-am models those machines will not build boost under a certain throttle percentage. The wastegate solenoid is fully open, allowing the wastegate to remain open, and anything below a certain throttle % will not allow the solenoid to begin to close to try to build boost. There is certain tuning that allows this to happen but i feel that Toyota is much different with how the vehicles feel. I have not put a boost gauge on a new Tundra but you can feel it build boost almost effortlessly on small hill climbs, and even 10% part throttle just "tipping" into the throttle to speed up from 35mph to 45mph as a speed zone changes. You dont have to go over 10% throttle to feel what "feels" like 30-40% of full boost roll in. There are times on the highway when you are at say 15-18% throttle constant just holding it like cruise control and as the load increases like a slow rolling hill you can feel the turbo spool and feel the vehicle almost effortlessly maintain speed even without any additional throttle input. I think this is where the problem is and ultimately lies. I bet if you put a boost gauge, and AFR gauge in it, watched the injector duty cycles and the load tables you would see the commanded load vs actual load are going to likely vary wildly. The ECU likely commanding for 40% load and the actual load at 70-80%+ which at the 15% throttle the injector duty cycles are low and unchanging, while the boost ramps in and the AFR likely goes to 16-1, 17-1 or even 18-1 AFR and you get detonation with our very poor quality fuel. I might be wrong, but i'm probably not.

 

Who knows. Toyota is definitely dumping millions into the "root cause" analysis and whetever else. Research and development. They won't tell us, but they'll perfect it.

 

I strongly suspect the machining debris was a way to stop people from looking into or digging into all the metal in the oil filter and oil pan. There is simply too much for it to be a few machining chips stuck in an oil passage. The bearings all chewed up in a manner that looks like they are being beat out and spun is where the metal shavings and debris is coming from. The only thing you gotta figure out is why, and I think I’m digging deeper than most folks are thinking and I don’t think I’m wrong.

 

Set aside the self confidence a moment and hear me out.

Is it possible it is debris, as has been show in pics posted elsewhere, and that has caused a blockage, starved the bearing(s), and the starvation caused them to burn and create all the debris that you say is "too much" to believe it's from debris in the first place?

 

I still haven’t seen those pix. Care to share?
You see the video of the engine tear down? You see how big the oiling holes in the crank are? The oil passages are easily 8mm in diameter. I’m a machinist by trade, I have my own machine shop. When cutting a forging or casting the chips are small and sharp, they don’t form ringlets like softer materials. Machining any forging or casting will make tiny square or triangular chips. You’d have to have an absolute metric shit ton of them to somehow block the oiling passages to restrict the oil flow to the crank bearings.

The big tale tell is the multiple videos of tear downs and the rod bearings and crank bearings being blown out and blued and spun. Detonation hammers the bearings and mushrooms them out. Once the bearing becomes loose on the journal then the bearing can spin which causes the gouging on the crank and rod end. Notice the one in the video how when he busted the cap of the end of the rod, he couldn’t get the cap back on and mentioned the rod end might be elongated. I bet if you mic’d the rod end you’d see the cap is likely egged out, from detonation, which ate the bearing up and caused the knocking that took the engine out.

 

As i understand it, they are on FB. I haven't seen them, but have no reason to doubt those who have.

are the oiling passages and all routes to oil the bearings consistently that size? Are there no choke points? I dont honestly know.

It requiring a lot doesn't sound impossible; it sounds unlikely. The engine in one of these trucks cratering is also unlikely. Could it be because it requires the unlikely blockage to happen? Would it have to be completely blocked to cause sufficient starvation?

You've said this. We all understand your position without it being repeated. You didn't answer my question, though. I am legitimately asking, because I am not a machinist. Is it possible that partial oil starvation would start the process of cooking the bearings, causing the bluing and other things you say are the smoking gun?

If it's a design flaw that causes premature detonations and the eventual death of the engine, shouldn't we see a steady or semi steady failure rate rather than the steady decline in failures?

 

Pre-ignition will destroy an engine in about 1 second.
Detonation while not good can be withstood.

Wonder if anyone has checked the block bearing surfaces with a straight edge.

Warping block can cause bearing failure.

 

I think it’s a consequential snowball not a design flaw.
There is no smoking gun that points to a design flaw
There is no smoking gun that says machining debris or metal chips from machining could cause a blockage
There is metal shavings in oil filters and oil pans on disassembly.

I think the tuning and detonation is the root cause of the issue, and the bearing cradle design causes the bearings to move and get mushroomed out and spin more easily than in the past. Then comes the knocking and metal shavings in the oil. I think it’s a snowball effect with the root cause being detonation. Main thing for evidence is the video in OP. All but one had bigger tires and or were towing. Bigger tires than stock increase the load. Increased load without sufficient fuel in high demand creates a perfect window for detonation.

In the long thread two of those guys were towing when theirs let go. My 1993 22RE rod bearings let go due to detonation while towing when I got bad gas.
Towing increases load
Bigger tires increase load
Increased load and building boost with low throttle percentage is the most likely place to get detonation.

The brand new 1200 mile 2025 is a head scratcher, I didn’t read that he was towing and I assume he still had the stock tires. Then again one guy said that’s not the lowest mileage failure they’ve had. So I dunno. I still think it’s detonation due to tuning. And the bearing design leads to an easier path for bearing failure. Which causes the bearing to spin and make the disco party in the oil.

 

So my take on it, if toyota figured out it was debris from the machining process a few years ago, why are they still failing? They would've remedied the machining process and fixed the issue, right? That's a serious question, not trying to be a dick or fuel the fire.

 

When you’re speaking to the choir and they won’t listen, you have to find another choir.

 

1st and 2-2.5 gens are awesome for reliability. Zero comparison to the new ones.

However having spent the last 10 years or so building an outrageously modified DI car, pushed 2.5x its factory rated output (200hp rated from factory, made 439whp on E30 at 26psi, 2.0T VW engine), I feel compelled to shed some light here (take it for what its worth).

If indeed the bearings are being destroyed from detonation...there is a reasonable solution to this. Run higher octane, especially with increased ambient temps, change oil brands, and viscosity.

I think Toyota (now at least), in the chase for their moniker of economical and reliable said, "Yeah, it can run on 87".....which for any modern DI car is absolute hogwash. High compression, boost, and elevated IATs, plus the LSPI from substandard quality oil is going to 100% cause issues.

Until someone fully cracks the ECM and gets to modifying the tune (past where the JB4 and others have), there is no reason to not change up what the "factory" recommends.

It's a different animal that they are dealing with now and I fully suspect that they will quietly come out and state the trucks need 93 octane to not grenade themselves.

You'll always have a few outliers in reliability, but the machining debris/casting debris story I think is a bandaid for bad OE suggestions.

 

10.5-1 compression isn’t all that bad. It makes a very lively boosted engine with decent power off boost. But my point is if that thing is creeping up to 12-16psi or more at 10-15% throttle on high load situations, this is a major recipe for detonation. The Direct Injection atomizes the fuel into even smaller droplets than a standard injector which furthermore increases the Likelihood of detonation. The direct injection is supposed to be able to control when the injector sprays better than a standard injector but…. If boost is creeping up at low throttle and the tables in the computer are looking at commanded load and throttle percentage and calculating fuel delivery and not accurately also accounting for boost build up in off throttle situations you got an extra volatile and ever increasing recipe for detonation. Detonation creates every single problem we are seeing in tear down videos.

I don’t know what the factory boost is on the new tundra. Does anybody know what it actually builds? Seat of the pants and listening I would assume it’s 20-22psi

 

I run the gauge cluster with the transmission temp shown, and on that display none of gauges show any number values. I'm not sure if just the boost gauge shows the PSI, but I'll try to remember to check.

 

Factory boost i believe is around 12-15psi ish. Nothing big. LSPI, and poor fuel quality and oil quality..sure i can see that happening.

10.5:1 is fine on a NA engine..but compounded with boost, it HAS to have 93.

For reference, my GTI had a 9.6:1 CR, and was 8-10psi, and factory mandated it run 93. At the end of the day, its about cylinder pressure, octane rating and nothing getting into the combustion chamber (oil that can precombust).

 

Yeah i agree, 10.5:1 compression ratio is perfect for an NA engine and on low boost like 6-7psi its an absolute hoot. (with 93) and yes for these higher boosted engines if its 1bar or more, you cant run without 93.
You know.... Something thats starting to raise even more alarms....
Notice in the video on tear down, this is a low mileage 2024 with the new fancy bearings that still lost a rod bearing and crank bearing. I paid attention to the rings in the video and noticed every oil expansion ring was seized up and the top of the piston was burnt like it had been getting oil past the oil rings.

WHAT IF, the pre-ignition combustion is blowing past the rings due to the low octane fuel, putting super high cylinder pressures past the rings and cooking the oil ring, furthermore making the problem worse by allowing oil into the cylinder which makes the LSPI even worse. Here in the video, the bottom compression ring is gunked with oil, not overly concerning but looks more like it should at 150,000+ miles not 20,000 miles. The piston ring lands are also gunked and covered in burnt oil. The oil ring is practically seized in the piston. This would further point towards pre-ignition. I wonder if any of these engines are actually using oil, i almost bet before they let go they have blow-by due to the rings getting beat out from pre-ignition.

https://youtu.be/VBRS_cffEhM?t=1524