If you're a Gen 3 owner, what do you do?

Uh huh. Telling everyone the timeframe within which potentially faulty engines were built after the fact is not an admission that they knowingly built faulty engines and sold them to unsuspecting customers anyway.

Read “6. Chronology of Principal Events” starting at the bottom of page 3.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RMISC-24V381-8150.pdf

Do you remember the stop sale Toyota put on all 2021 trucks for a steering rack issue? Turns out they narrowed it down and found all the trucks the faulty part went into, a grand total of 151 trucks. That didn’t stop a bunch of people from needlessly hyperventilating on the internet for a minute though.

 

No, in July 22, they received reports that two engines had failed bearings, hypothesized there may be a debris issue, and changed their cleaning process.

There is no indication in the language used that Toyota “started” making changes and didn’t finish implementing the changes until much later. It seems that you’re misreading these two sections and inferring something that is not implied. Seems to me this is because you enjoy stirring up anxiety among 3rd gen owners.


I agree that it doesn’t look good, and they need to make it right. I think they will do so, not out of altruism, but out of self-interest, protecting their reputation.

 

Toyota just increased the workforce that build the TT-V6. One would therefore think they are 100% certain that its a process issue and not a design issue. Also, all the crying that "its the EPA's fault" is just non-sense. Since it is apparently a contamination issue, it could have happened to any of their engine designs/plants.

All that said, I would not by a Tundra for at least 18 mo to see if its fixed.

 

What is your source of information to make the claim the QC is less in US engine factory than in Japan?

 

Shōgun Businessman's Quarterly.






Also, The Travelers Guide to Sumo Wrestling and Budget Priced Sake.



Hai!!

 

Last May I took a business trip to Japan and toured multiple manufacturing facilities related to the auto industry while there. Admittedly, even though I have not visited the Alabama engine plant, I can confidently say that the Japan work ethic, 5S, Six Sigma, and ER operating room cleanliness FAR exceeds that of anything on U.S. soil. I am a proud American and served my country honorably for 12 years, but I can't deny the painful reality that we now live in a country where work ethic sucks, attitudes suck, and more importantly quality sucks. In Japan their work ethic is based on honor to not only themselves but the impact it has on their family. They are tremendously dedicated to their craft. Therefore, while I can't 100% confirm that QC is less in the US engine factory, I would bet my privates the Japan plant is substantially better and can't fathom the engine block suffering from the same poor QC as the U.S. So, I will once again humbly stand firm that this is a design issue, and debris is a side effect.

 

There are more gen 2 folks posting to these threads than gen 3 owners. Not quite sure why? Perfect avenue to puff up over reliability because gen 3 has a decade to go to get the needed data to discuss this point maybe? If you look at the 6 page toyota response, it makes the issue clear. But wait, I'll get on here and listen to speculation based on nothing but predisposition. I for one, will be out of here. If there were some new data or interesting analysis that was meaningful, it would be worth my time, it is not, just a play on social media.

 

Having been in manufacturing facilities in both counties albeit in a different equally complicated industry, I suggest you tour a US based assembly facility, you may be shocked at what you find. There may be cultural difference, the QC by design will be the same.

I do agree, it smells of a design issue or single source to both facilities. The fact the source of said contamination was not identified and corrected in either facility supports equivalent QC. The culture being different doesn't mean the pride of Alabama workers is any less that Japan counterparts.

 

Much of what you say makes sense, but then I would be inclined to think that the same "work ethic is based on honor" and being "tremendously dedicated to their craft" would apply to the engineering team that designed the V35A, and that would bode well for it being a good design at its foundation. Or am I wrong in thinking that?

 

Yep. I lived in Japan for almost 5 years. Things aren't as rosy QC wise there as it appears. I can attest to their dedication to work. Long hours. Hit the bars afterwork with their work buds. Get home late after their kids are asleep. Repeat. Usually six days a week. Very little quality time with the the family. I belong to ASQ, American Society for Quality, with members in over 100 countries including Japan. I can assure you that we do have companies that meet or exceed full compliance when it comes to QC. One of my calibration clients in Boulder manufactures synthetic nucleic acid. Only one of three places on the planet that can do this successfully. The QC required is insane. We still make some of the most sophisticated test and measuring equipment. We have clients that build things that end up in space. You won't find a single spec of dust in their clean room environment. Cleaner than an ER by far. We aren't perfect here, but we don't suck.

 

My "we suck" comment was generalizing of course, but in many areas including the automotive industry, quality has suffered tremendously. Are there exceptions in other generas as you have outlined? Of course, but in regard to the automotive industry specifically (which is why we are here), it's quite apparent in my humble opinion that QC is the worst it has ever been. I am an optimist at heart, but realistically the 3rd gen has been a disappointment in comparison to historic Toyota QC. Yes, there are growing pains and I realize even the 2nd gen had birthing issues. However, in year 3 of the 3rd generation, we have now been recently introduced to a Toyota safety recall of unprecedented proportions. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial or a Toyota fan boy IMHO. I truly hope there are no serious injuries as a result of this defect, and while unlikely it's still very possible dependent on geographical location. If Toyota and its president would lie about several of its vehicle's specifications, then it's possible if not probable they would lie to us about this recall, and the true root cause. Hence, they continue to sell both hybrid and non-hybrid post recall '23-24 Tundras when they know damn well there hasn't been an effective process fix. It's about the almighty $$$ and its no surprise that they are giving us a smoke screen about safety when actually seeing through the smoke reveals the truth.

You hit the nail on the head regarding the Japanese work force. I actually felt sorry for them because while I was in complete awe of their work ethic and attention to detail, they seemed like human robots working the long 6–7-day weeks. The conversations I had with them broke my heart because their quality of life outside or work seemed poor.

 

All valid points!

 

I could be wrong but I believe this engine was designed by a team here in the USA.

 

The old days the Japanese built cars with all functions located within the same few blocks. Made it much easier to control quality. And if push came to shove the brass could walk down the street and put a boot in engineering or productions rear end to fix it.

Assembling cars internationally from parts sourced around the globe is a challenge. I don't care if you are Ford, GM, Toyota or Honda. The Japanese have had the advantage of supporting long term partnerships with vendors while Detroit penny pinchs their lowest cost vendors.

Reality is there are many more shared components in vehicles today than yesterday year. For example ZF transmissions are in multiple makes from Jeeps to BMWs. My wife had a 2009 Lexus and the rearview mirror was the same as my Chevy truck minus the OnStar button pod

In EV age brands using the same bits will only increase. The costs of every company designing their own EV platform to produce almost identical designs will give away to customization of standard platforms built as a commodity by the same vendor. This should benefit the consumer with lower cost EVs

 

What also might help is if the Yakuza has a lot of TMC shares.

 

I used to be a corporate manager for one of the U.S. based automotive assembly factories you mentioned. While I won't divulge the name, I can attest that the factory I worked at had immense QC issues and the worst QC metrics in the long history of the company. Reasons? Several, including poor attitudes and work ethic, feeling of entitlement, poor plant management, and limited employee hiring pool. To expand, we were so desperate for bodies on the assembly floor that we actually contemplated contacting the local county jail to inquire about possible work release inmates so that we had a heartbeat on the floor. We had to literally lower our hiring standards because simply put, nobody wants to work these days and those that do are so poorly qualified that they usually only last a couple of months due to failing a post hire drug test, not coming to work, or poor performance.

Respectfully that is not the culture I witnessed while in Japan. Most were senior tenured employees who had perfected their craft. Example is the assembly line workers at the Tahara Japan plant where the Land Cruiser 4Runner, Lexus LX, and other vehicles are built. Historically, they are the most well-made autos on the planet built by Japanese that are hand selected to be on the line. It's an honor and they take it very seriously. While Toyota executives may oversee the Alabama engine plant and San Antonio Tundra assembly plant, there are mostly Americans that make up the work force and thus the resulting product is the outcome. The difference between the levels of vehicle quality at the San Antonio built plant vs the Tahara built plant is staggering. Bottom line and I know I sound like a broken record, but the work force in the U.S. is suffering and poor QC is a side effect (Tundra for example).

 

While I agree that newer Toyota/Lexus vehicles across the board are built cheaper, I don’t see a glaring disparity in quality between the MIJ and MIA Toyotas I’ve owned.

Look at the 200 series Land cruisers. The apex vehicle of Toyota and Lexus. They have the same issues as the 3UR-equipped Tundras and Sequoias: cam tower weeping, timing chain tensioner rattle, coolant valley leak (this one actually seems more common on 200s than on the American made Tundras and Sequoias), etc. They even ran a flawed radiator design that develops a stress crack and ultimately a coolant leak over time for 10+ years before changing it. I just installed the updated radiator on my ‘09 LX.

Shockingly, the new GX550 has the same interior plastics and headliner as lower trim 3rd gen Tundras, and the hood is so flimsy it visibly flutters while driving.

My old LX has a couple rattles in the interior that I can’t chase down. Granted, it has 178k miles, but my Tundra at 64k miles is still dead silent inside.

My MIJ 2012 4Runner and 2015 Prius were nice and well built, but they had the same interior plastics that my SR5 Tundra has. Those plastics scuff if you look at them wrong.

 

While no vehicle is perfect and certainly the 200 had some teething issues (myself and a friend both owned one), there are many examples globally and domestically that have 500k plus miles with basic maintenance overall. The 4Runner speaks for itself and granted the new LX suffers from the flawed 3.4TT as well, give me a 200 series LX570 and see how many miles you can rack up with minimal maintenance. They are just simply better built, and while not perfect, are proven to be the majority choice for overlanding worldwide for good reason.

I see your Tundra at 64k miles is dead silent which I can believe as Toyota had dialed in the 2nd gen and almost perfected it in its last years (as it should be due to being born in 2007). A simple interior with uncomplicated electronics and bulletproof naturally aspirated V8 with 6 speed tranny...yummie. I had several iterations of the 2nd gen platform and loved them all. I felt it was more of a truck with simplistic build and great quality for an American made product. IMHO, the 3rd generation Tundra is a huge fail to this point and the most recent safety recall is an insult to injury from an already multi-recall platform.

 

Hmm. This contradicts the 2/2.5 Gen owners who proudly share how bulletproof they are. Remind me where they are assembled.

 

The V35A-FTS debuted in 2017 in the Lexus LS500 AFAIK. The design was proven for years before the US Tundra received it.

 

Don’t get me wrong; I love both of my vehicles. Counter-intuitively, there are a higher % of 200k+ mile specimens of Tundras and Sequoias than 200s/570s on the road. And regarding ultra high mileage specimens, the early 2nd gen Tundras outnumber them all.

There are higher quality materials in my LX for sure. It was over $80k new. But that doesn’t mean it is necessarily built better or will inherently last longer. Plus,
People on the mud forum regularly mod their 200s with larger Tundra/Sequoia front end components.

 

Drive it, they'll probably offer an extended warranty as the "fix", either sell before the warranty expires or keep going and just plan on an engine rebuild at some point. I love the truck and the engine thing is a bump in the road. I wouldn't hesitate to drive it on a trip but I'm used to driving "unreliable" vehicles into the wilderness and carry basic supplies to get help, and stay warm if an unexpected overnight in the wilderness is needed. For most people in the lower 48 all that stuff isn't necessary, and help is a phone call or SOS button away.

Don't live in fear of the what if.

 

NHTSA will not allow an extended warranty for a fault deemed to be safety issue to be the “fix”. It may be something they will be pressured to include, but once a root cause is identified and accepted by the feds, all affected vehicles will have to be offered a real fix to eliminate the safety issue. And it’s quite conceivable that if they do choose to offer an extended warranty, it will only be available after the actual fix is made to a vehicle.

 

Do you have experience in the NHSTA domain?

 

I've seen it personally. I've owned numerous 4Runners and Land Cruisers, as well as Tundras and Tacomas. Currently own two Land Cruisers (16 and 88), a Tundra (23) and 4Runner (2020).

All were built well, but the fit and finish on the 4Runners and Land Cruisers has always been a step above. No body gaps, no rattles in 100s of thousands of miles of ownership, etc. I will say that my Tundra seems to be the best built of my USA built rigs, other than the engine potentially, which is a BIG asterisk), but no body gaps, no rattles, etc. Although they did ship it out of Texas with the wipers unable to turn off due to a wire in the wiper harness coming out of the harness plug on install. I've never had a JP built Toyota with any issues on delivery. That was a new one for me. My first two Tacoma had dash rattles (easy fix, but again, not same fit and finish, my 2007 Tacoma bed had gaps in the body that I was able to fix, etc., but they all drove for tons of miles with no issues.

I do believe the U.S. built Toyotas are also built to a very high standard, but some of the Toyota plants continuously win awards for best manufacturing for a reason. And yes, I do think culture has a lot to do with it. That said, I have no issue buying U.S. made Toyota trucks. I've had good experience. However, if I had a choice, and could have a Tundra made in Japan, that is the one I would buy.

As far as the engine goes, I'd be surprised if it was block debris in both Japan and USA. If it was a faulty part sourced from the same place (say bearings or timing cover, made in Japan were sent to both US and JP plants, and those items had defects or debris.

I think it is likely a bit of both. There probably was debris detected in tested engines, and that can lead to failure, but I also think the ladder cap could be a problem, as it would be so hard to get all three pieces installed and keep the engine in spec. I think it is a stronger design, but much more prone to install errors, with a part that must be installed VERY precisely to avoid exactly what is happening here.

 

Not personally.

 

this perfectly matches my experience as well.

I’ve had 5 5th gen 4Runners ( long story).

I have a 2019 trd pro tundra. I’ve also had multiple tacomas and even a Highlander.

when I get a new vehicle I crawl all over it looking for imperfections.

nothing matched the build quality of the 4Runners.

for example, l was checking underneath both my tundra and 4 runner for any gaps in body sealer. None were found.

however the 4 runner sealer was laid out like the finest welding you have ever seen. The tundra was smeared all over. Large drips hanging down.

I have 20,000 miles on my current 4runner. When I open the hood there is still a visible shine on all metal parts. Literally looks brand new. And I live in a terribly dusty place.

my tundra at the same mileage looked like I just did the Baja 1000. There are no oil weeps, no coolant weeps but it is dirty.

my tundra is the best full size truck I’ve ever owned or had any first hand experience with , which includes a large sample size.

But the 4runner is just flat out amazing.

I’m looking for a bigger suv actually but my 4runner is not going anywhere.

 

That is why so many of us are so very disappointed in the new Toyota. They used to make world class vehicles that were the pinnacle of quality and dependability. They seem to be focused on other matters now.

 

Well over 200,000 Gen 3 Tundras sold and 824 warranty claims related to this engine failure recall, so far. I'm not a mathematician, but I think that's a pretty small fraction.

I tend to agree, the ladder cap concept is a good idea *in theory*. In reality, it has to be a much trickier install than normal bearing caps.

 

So far is the key. 1000 catastrophic failures out of 200k+ sold in say, the 5 yr/60k warranty period may be acceptable. However, Toyota said the "good" engines they opened had damage too. So there are likely a lot more ticking time bombs out there.

Even Toyota said they have no idea how many engines are affected.