2000 Tundra SR5 4.7 No clicks, no crank after new starter

First post, guys, long time lurker first time poster, but I'm stumped...

Replaced starter two weeks ago Sunday with a Denso reman from O'Reilly. At that time turning the key produced a loud click, no crank. So battery was fully recharged and cranking amps tested at store, passed all tests. Pulled starter, bench test showed the bendix would engage but motor would not spin. Replaced starter.

Friday night turning the key did nothing; no clicks or cranks. Recharged battery that was drained a little from attempts to start, still nothing. Tested 5 amp fuse after the ignition switch, it showed voltage going through when key turned to start.

Pulled starter relay, broke plastic cover in the process and replaced it with a new one. still no start. With relay out measured voltage across 3 and 5 connections with key turned to start - 12.11. Jumpered the 1 and 2 connections, nothing, no crank.

Pulled new starter and returned to O'Reilys for bench test. Passed three tests.

Thinking it was a ground issue, tested battery voltage at 12.65 between posts then got the same reading at the following ground locations; left fender, engine block behind driver motor mount, driver and passenger between heads and firewall. All came back at 12.65. Randomly checked the both heads and block in the valley while I was there, all 12.65.

Replaced starter after wire brushing the side connector with the 12mm nut. It was free of corrosion, but thought it was a good idea. Made sure the second connection was snug and firmly in place. Jumpered the 1 and 2 connections at the starter relay and the engine cranked.

Thinking I got lucky, replaced the manifold and all other connections and hoses. Truck started but was running rough. Checked the engine temp sensor and camshaft position sensor connections. Coolant connector plastic was crumbling inside and needs replacement. Carefully reconnected and started again, running smooth this time. Smelled gas and found small leak at fuel intake pipe. I had put crush washers on top and bottom, only bottom was correct. Pulled and replaced bottom crush washer.

After that, same result as when I started; no clicks, no cranks. Pulled starter relay and jumpered 1 and 2 connections, no crank. Visually inspected coolant, camshaft and crankshaft (just in case) connectors, all looked OK. Rechecked ground between battery and fender, block, head and manifold, all seemed good.

Even if a sensor connections was bad, doesn't the jumper at the starter relay bypass the ECM? I'm stumped, what should I do next?

Have to leave for work, so I may be slow in responding to suggestions...

 

Ah, so you get to lump yourself in with the slew of people who replaced the starter when it wasn't actually the starter eh? Classic!!

I didn't know O'reilly sold Denso parts, that's a new one on me. I don't trust those fuckers. I've had nothing but disappointing experiences in that store. But that's another topic.

We've had other members find that if the coolant sensor (there are two in earlier years, side by side, on passenger side of throttle body) used by the ECM, which I believe is the green one, is not functional or hooked up, the engine won't crank - i.e. if the ECM can't sense anything on the coolant sensor circuit, it won't start. Resolve that issue first. And use Denso part for that also. Always use Denso brand for electronics, per the megathread. The other coolant sensor (grey or black I believe) is used for the dash gauge. 2 diff't circuits.

I see you've tested all the wires and such, but did you test the battery? Is it possible it's no longer capable of producing CCA required to blast the starter? Only takes a minute to pull, then run it to the store for a free test. Batteries aren't just voltage, in fact, 12v+ doesn't mean shit when starting a car, if the battery has inadequate amperage, like less than 200 CCA!

Also, aftermarket alarm!? And a no-start condition? Should be a huge red flag. How old is this alarm, and did you bother to check if *IT* is the problem? Once they hit that 8-10 year mark, it's not uncommon for their brains to get squirrely and cause no-start conditions. Likewise, you should really verify the wiring, where it intercepts the start circuit.

On the rough running ... four questions:

• Any codes?
• Did you replace the intake manifold gasket when you had the manifold off? (Note: This is another place where brands are important, only use OEM or Fel-pro, you don't want to see what others here have been thru with store brands!!)
• Did you have the negative battery cable off for more than 5-10 minutes at any point, which would force the engine to re-learn? (And you ARE only removing the negative battery cable right? Removing positive can wreak havoc!)

I take it you've checked all fuses in the engine fuse/relay box AND the under-dash panel?

I'm thinking faulty battery OR fuse OR alarm in this case. I'm saying that because ...

• Jumpering at the start relay socket should produce at least something - suggesting either (A) circuit is interrupted by something, or (B) voltage is not being pushed hotly enough into the starter
• The absence of click, suggests to me (A) is more likely, though (B) is still an option
• Generically speaking, not necessarily true for these trucks, a fuse will also deaden a circuit.

Of course, corrosion in the wires can cause issues also. I just don't think that's the problem here.

There are links to electrical wiring diagrams for your truck, and the FSM, in the sticky "so you just bought a Tundra..." megathread.

 

A bit about myself to fill in some gaps, I'm a fairly competent shade tree mechanic starting about 10 years ago out of necessity. We have triplet daughters and a stay at home mom, all girls, they're all three in college now, so the budget is tight. I have an FSM I downloaded after my oil stained Haynes manual turned out to be missing critical info. I can and do follow directions, then go back and check and double check. Where possible, I will hit the junkyard for working original parts. If it's a maintenance part, I'll research US made and follow reviews. Yes, OEM is always best, learned the hard way over the years that the cheap Chinese knock offs fail early and often, still budget is an issue and I can't always do that. With that said, I better get to work... Thanks in advance for your help!

 

1st thing make sure your connectors are clean and tightened down, as slight looseness can cause electrical issues, if these 2 things are good then.

Replace the battery. Especially if it's still under warranty, it's cheaper to swap it at this point. My SC400 would do something similar with a 6 month old battery, turned out it smocked it, but would light up my dash, but as soon as I turned the key it would shut off, no click no crank.

The jumper wire is a good indication that there may be damage between the grounding point in you ignition switch to the starter relay. My 02 Celica does this and I commonly jump it with no issues.

 

That's why this caught my eye when making my reply above....

​

 

Thanks for answering Shifty. No DTCs, should have mentioned that!

And yeah, the aftermarket alarm thing is a major question, not sure where to begin with that. I've put about 140k on this old truck and it hasn't been a source of problems..., yet.

I did bench test the old starter myself, solenoid pushed it out, but would not spin. I did disconnect both positive and negative cables, didn't realize that would be an issue.

And you caught me on the gaskets..., but I did clean them up and made sure all surfaces were clean.

Checked all fuses, just takes a few seconds for each one, but they all checked out. Power at the starter relay matched battery voltage.

I did have the battery load tested at the store, first step when checking out the starter. They gave me a printout showing a passing CCA. Thanks BlackDemon, but no warranty on the battery just yet. It is a Walmart (I know, I know...) battery. It may be time to get a real one, but I'd like to check through all other possibilities first.

 

The voltage between the 3 and 5 connection was 12.11 compared to the battery voltage of 12.7, so I'll search for the ground between the start switch and the relay. But doesn't the jumper from 1 and 2 at the starter relay bypass the start switch circuit?

 

The "rough running" comment is why I brought it up. And asking about codes during rough running. Both could be symptoms of (A) negative batt disco forcing re-learn, or (B) bad seal on intake gasket, since we know you were in there and the pre-VVTi 4.7L used a different form of gasket.

Only remove the negative battery cable when servicing. Never the positive. Positive battery cable sparking can blow fuses and cause electrical havoc in more-sensitive cars. The battery ground should never spark in normal circumstances. If you must remove the positive, always re-attach the ground cable last to avoid sparking.

Next steps would be figuring what alarm you have so we know what we're up against. There are a few possible ways to do that.

But first, why do you have the alarm? What function is it serving for you? Keyless entry? Remote start?

Sometimes the FCC ID on the back of the keyfob will put you in the ballpark for the manufacturer. Alternately, if you can find the black-box brain under the dash, it may have numbering on it that will tip you off to the manuf'er. Either may help to figure out what wire would be used for ignition intercept. You could also try unplugging the alarm blackbox completely and see if it fails over to allow start (I'd find unlikely, but I've seen cases where it's valid depending on install).

Alternate path would be consulting the EWD so you can figure out the start/ign circuit wire color for your truck. Per The12Volt.com @ https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/alarmdetail/2150.html

Starter is green w/blk stripe, and ignition are black w/ylw stripe and black w/red stripe. Hunt down those three and look for splices, or potential bad splices, since dumbasses like to use t-taps and scotchloks which fail with time, no matter who/how they're installed.

 

I would agree with @shifty`alarm suggestion. I missed that, since reading is not my strong suit. I removed the fuse on my aftermarket alarm after a decade since the alarm just kept going off. My brother removed all the wiring a few years later as it would lock him out of the car at random times, among other issues.

 

I missed it until my reply got long enough that I looked over and noticed it, so it almost escaped me too.

Also just realized I forgot to share warning about proper order to disco/reco batt cables, so ... edits, edits, edits...

 

The alarm was a prior owner and came with the truck. I've never messed with it since my wiring skills are not great, afraid I'll mess it up rather than make it better. Agree that it's a major concern here.

Have the FSM EWD and added a screenshot below. After the ignitions switch it goes to the ECM then to the Park Neutral Pos and back to the ECM before going to the starter relay. I'll have to pull the kick panel tonight and have a look at what's connected and if those connections are good.

Still, the ignition circuit trips the starter relay allowing power to the starter. When I put the multi-meter on it shows 12.1, is that not enough for the relay to click on? To bypass it, jumping between power and the starter should get me a crank at the starter without the ignition circuit involved. Since there's no crank when jumping at the relay that means battery, starter or ground even if the ignition circuit is screwed up by the alarm.

Not trying to argue with you, just hoping to understand and figure this out, and that's the part that stumps me.

 

and thanks to both of you for the help, need to get back to work...

 

This is my understanding, yes. I thought I'd read in your original post that you didn't have power to the relay socket, and that's why I was questioning. As long as the ECM isn't controlling the ground in some way, yes, jumpering the socket should result in a start. If you're truly using Denso and not a store brand, I can't imagine it's the part that's faulty.

This video is one we link occasionally for starter issues, and you may find helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jWouSQYTnU​

 

Ok, after thinking about it all day, if the battery is good, starter is good, and starter relay is good then there's only two options left. Battery to starter cable is bad or there's a bad ground.

So I just pulled the manifold, got out the multimeter and got the following;

Pos post to neg Post - 12.62
Pos post to heads - 12.62
Pos post to starter casing - 12.62
Pos post to block - readings jump around from zero to 8 or 9
Pos post to block where starter is bolted on - same results
Pos post to block below exhaust manifold - same results

That means a bad ground, right?

 

Update - Looking at the wiring diagram and a video, it looks like the starter grounds directly to the block. There is no negative cable or connection. Having checked ground connections on the block and getting good readings, it seems like the fault is between the starter and the block. Right?

After the last post, I wondered how it was that there was ground when touching the grounding bolt but not when I put against the block. Well, duh, the block is rusty, bad connection. Put the test light back in the intake valley, scratched a little with the light probe and the light went on. Think I need to pull the starter and get to work with a wire brush on the mating surface...

 

On the earlier non-VVTi models, I've heard you can reach thru the intake manifold to tap the starter. I wonder if you can feed anything through that may let you test that theory. Sometimes I'll recommend trying to run a direct line from the negative batt cable to the engine block in cases where it looks like bad ground may be the cause of an issue. Especially for trucks that lived in the rust belt for any period of time.

 

The negative cable from the battery to the lower rear driver's side of the block corroded on mine and left me stranded one day in OK. I bypassed it with a new one. It looked fine at the terminal connections but was completely corroded inside when I cut the ends off.

 

The manifold is off for direct access to the starter. Thanks for the video link, that was the one that got me to test the starter relay and relay terminal. Tonight's tests as follows:

Batt Voltage +post to -post 12.63
Starter A post to neg battery post 12.64
Starter B connector to neg battery post, starter relay in, key to start position - 12.43
Starter relay terminal 1, starter relay out, key to start position - 12.47

Voltage Drop Tests
Starter Case to Neg battery post, key to start position - 0.018
Starter A post to Pos battery post, key to start position - .001

Batt Voltage +post to -post - 12.57 (battery dropping after multiple key tests?)
Batt Voltage at starter relay terminal 3 (this is the load terminal) - 12.57

Jumper from terminal 3 to 5 - No crank
Testing relay - audible click with power to 1 and ground to 2

Not sure what's going on here.

1 - Power is getting from the battery to the A post on the starter.
2 - Power is getting to the starter relay (but is 0.01 to 0.02 lower than battery voltage), relay tests ok, power is getting to terminal B on starter (same voltage as at starter relay)
3 - Testing ground with multimeter, connecting positive lead to starter case and negative lead to positive battery post - shows same as battery voltage
4 - Voltage drop test from the case to the negative battery post shows slight voltage, but essentially a good ground
5 - Voltage drop test from starter post A to positive battery posts shows slight voltage drop
6 - Jumper from starter relay terminal 3 to 5 should make the starter crank
7 - Starter was bench tested on Saturday at the parts store, passed 3 tests

With everything I've seen, that starter should crank. If it was the old alarm or the ECM, it would kill power to the starter relay 1 terminal. Power tested ok at both A and B on the starter itself. That would make me think ground, but ground tests ok with a probe light, a multimeter from positve to case without load, and a drop test from case to negative with load.

What am I missing or doing wrong?

 

I certainly don’t mean to hijack the thread but a quick question regarding the alarm system.. With an 06 DC, I can lock all the doors by inserting key in driver and locking the driver door. Is that indication of an alarm system or just the power lock system actuating all the locks at once by design?

@tripletdad , you most recent analysis looks good to me. I’m starting to think you have interference from another powered system onboard like the other folks.

 

I don't think you can get the later-year models without keyless/security/TVIP. At least I haven't heard of anyone having an '05-'06 1GT without it.

However, I want to say (reflecting back on Bubba's input) there was a split, where some later-year models had security managed through the BCM, whereas others used the TVIP (RS3200) system. I want to say any of the trucks using BCM for security/keyless also have the immobilizer function and may use chipped keys? But only for DC, not AC or RC. I know my '06 AC has RS3200, and I don't believe I have the locking functions through the door you describe. I'll hafta check it when I run to donate my load of tools and toolboxes the a nearby school this AM.

 

@socomoby Yeah, that's where my thinking goes, too. I've traced the wiring harness from the battery to the starter and the engine fuse box, then the fuse box to the starter. Just following the wiring diagram. It's all wrapped up in tape and plastic conduit, but there are no obvious aftermarket wiring splices.

Trying to think this through. I had a no start situation a few years ago that was the result of a crankshaft sensor wire break, but that interrupted the ignition switch circuit, so the starter relay wasn't getting power to close the switch. The power is there (at relay and solenoid connection) when I turn the key to start, so the ECM is not stopping the relay from closing. Checked for DTCs again last night just to see, nothing. All the technical things that could stop normal operation are on the ignition switch circuit.

If there's power at the solenoid connector, that means the relay closed and power is coming through it, right? The battery to the starter circuit is pretty straightforward, one wire goes to the first post, the other goes to the solenoid connector.

So, yeah, there is something interrupting the circuit somewhere. And I'm not disagreeing with more experienced minds, I put the alarm detail in there because it's in the back of my mind too. I just don't see how it would be killing the starter circuit. And, I'm afraid that fixing something that ain't broke will start breaking other things. This is a 24 year old truck, plastic connectors break just looking at them! I guess it's time to go there...

 

The locking function is native to Toyotas in general. You can lock and unlock all the doors from the drivers door. First turn unlocks drivers, second unlocks all of them.

 

this. Do 1 for just the dr. Door. Do 2 turn for all the doors.

 

The story ends tonight.

A special thanks to @blackdemon who commented in another post to keep it simple. The problem for him was an unplugged starter. I was ready to start digging into that old alarm under the dash when I read his post. After all the diagnostic steps right up to the starter, then proving that I had ground, what's left? The starter.

When I pulled the new starter and bench tested it, no go. Took it back to O'Reillys and swapped it for another one.

That was it, truck fired up first time and is running smooth.

In my defense, the faulty reman had worked without issue for two weeks, passed a bench test last Saturday, and fired up the truck twice before dying for good Sunday night.

On the plus side, I can read wiring diagrams better and learned some useful multimeter skills. Never heard of a voltage drop test before.

Thanks to all for helping out, I really appreciate it.

 

Good deal. What’s so cool about forums is that we all can learn / be prepared for this situation the next time it occurs to a forum friend or individually. In the age of social media, we can’t allow the prelude of forums to die. Glad she’s fixed up!

 

Glad you got it sorted. Same thing happened to a buddy of mine. Had a slow starter. Replaced battery, no change. Replaced starter, no change. We started replacing power and ground wires (big pain in an expedition. NO CHANGE. Scratching our heads we both thought about the fact that everything else was fine and the starter was just slow. He swapped it again at the LAPS and the new new one fired right up. Just got a bad reman the first time.

 

What the shit, though? You're telling me BOTH were Denso reman starters? And both came from O'reillys? This sounds like the experience most people usually have with the generic brands local auto parts stores, I've never heard anything like this from ACTUAL legit Denso brand parts.

Glad you got it solved man, but ... feck!

 

They just don't make'em like they use to

 

Denso still makes them like they used to, hence why I was skeptical earlier, which is why I brought it up.

​

Starter is one of those parts where you should really only be using Denso for exactly the reasons OP was suffering through, this isn't the first time we've seen multiple failures from "brand new" non-Denso starters, specifically.

And I know for a fact none of my local auto parts chain stores carry Denso products, for the most part. I was even more skeptical when I went to O'reillys national website and they only sell Ultima brand starters for OP's truck - for the record, I checked for both Atlanta stores and Austin stores, just to make sure I'm not missing something here ... so I'm super confused, I guess:

​

 

I buy Toyota because of the superior engineering and manufacturing, they're well-built and reliable. Cheap knockoffs are not worth it, I've done that. (and would have benefited from your post on lower ball joints about 6 or 7 years ago. Literally snapped off on hairpin turn, luckily at low speed!)

This is the detail on the reman starter, it shows Nippondenso as the OEM, so I assumed they'd rebuilt a denso starter. Bad assumptions It looks exactly the same as the one I pulled which was probably the original, but its the guts that matter. Doubt they used denso components for the rebuild.

Another hard lesson learned..., just looked at the Denso website, total cost with shipping, about $240 and 3 day wait compared to the $120 spent. The truck has been down a total of 8 days along with 3 times removing and replacing. Probably 20 to 25 hours total with all the circuit testing and youtube watching.

Saving $240 - $120 = $120 just wasn't worth it. Listen to @shifty folks...

“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”
― Benjamin Franklin