1st Gen. Lunch Table - General Discussion

King

 

Fuck yeah they are.

 

Still deciding what I do next. My Icon's will have to be rebuilt in the next few years. I'll either do that or swap them out for Kings/ADS.

@Sunnier , I'm surprised to hear you say people are having issues with ADS. I've heard that about ICON but not ADS. Any idea what the issues are?

 

It's been awhile so no, I don't recall. And, tbf, several of the "regular off road" guys I know that run Ikon also have run ADS components-- it may be that I'm confusing one for the other which, damnit, would be pretty uncool, me posting vague info on the internet. But, my impression that I stand by is, apart from KevinK, almost all the guys go-fast I know that wheel hard, started digressive them swapped to progressive valving. Better for the big hits at speed.

SGU and Bastrds have been involved in most of the forum discussions about this. So add Warren 831Tun and Joonbug to your searches. Dave Vizsla and Godless Pro as well.

 

Maybe they concatenate their shipping the same way stealership service departments concatenate their labor hours.

Yeah, I suspect it's the same with my Toytecs. Although I'm sure having brand spanking new e-rated oversized tires isn't helping. Nor do I think the 700lb springs are helping either.

I've got means to get some 6112s at a really fair price, BNIB, w/650lb springs and I suspect I may be pulling the trigger on it once I figure out the logistics.

 

nightstand drawer

 

Yeah, why'd you go with 700lbs when you've stated you don't want an off-road bumper?
Do you at least plan on a winch to help give the front some more weight?
With full armor on my truck, my toytecs with 650lb coils, on the street were fucking Cadillac. But they were trash off-road. Now I've got 700lb coils and they're great for my setup.

 

Austin Powers: No, don't be sorry, baby. You're right to be suspicious. I shagged her.
Vanessa Kensington: What?
Austin Powers: I shagged her rotten, baby, yeah!
Vanessa Kensington: Did you at least use protection ?
Austin Powers: Of course. I had my 9mm automatic.
Vanessa Kensington: You know I meant, did you use a condom?
Austin Powers: No, only sailors wear condoms baby.
Vanessa Kensington: Not in the '90s Austin.
Austin Powers: Well they should, those filthy beggars. They go from port to port.

 

especially with a pair of hitch hikers.

 

Bingo! Personally I like the progressive valving. You need a lot of compression on the bottom end of the shock to go fast. I hate the way digressive shocks feel. Of course a "good ride" is subjective right? Digressive is actually pretty good for the guys that want to tighten up the suspension feel like a sports car with less roll and more predictability on the street, but you pay for it when you bottom out. I really could give a rats ass about that. I want it to soak up everything and allow me to eat everything on the road. With progressive the faster you go over something the smoother it is (within reason). That digressive valving is dangerous for inexperienced off-roaders. That's all that bucking and rear end dancing from side to side cause the shock can't handle the terrain when going fast. This is probably sacrilege for a lot of 1G guys, but 5100's suck and idk how so many people praise that shock. I had them and they broke eggs in my fridge on a camping trip going down washboards.

 

Yup.

I think we only have a few 1st Gen people in here that off-road fast though-- so, tbf, there's maybe not a lot of rationale for throwing more money into shocks than for the oft' recommended Bilsteins.

But yeah, once you know, you know.

 

Do you know of any progressive shocks for our trucks that don't cost an arm and a leg? I can't really find any...

I've honestly been pretty disappointed with my brand new 4600s. I realize that they're a super cheap shock, but they're too firm over little bumps and I can bottom them out if pull into my driveway too fast. I was hoping that I'd have a super awesome ride since they're closest to stock, but I have to swerve to avoid potholes if I don't want them to bottom out. Not an issue in my Lexus sedan with half the suspension travel, because it has progressive shocks.

Also- I couldn't keep up with my friend's stock Nissan Rogue on washboard roads because even the 4600s made it too bouncy/sketch. Mad embarrassing.

 

Even on the "budget" side the difference between a 6112/5160 combo is totally worth it. For these trucks I totally get it. It's hard to justify buying a suspension package that costs almost as much as the truck. With UCA's and 2.5 coilovers/rear shocks you're pushing right under 5k. Is it worth it...definitely your prerogative, but man good suspension is fun. I bought my truck specifically to build for go fast, but I get it. Most guys bought these trucks for a badass reliable pickup and they weren't wrong. Plus 4.7 superiority.

 

Budget option get dobinson IMS or 6112/5160. I recommend them to everyone that wants a budget option. Is it more expensive? Definitely, but it'll hold you through most stuff you throw at it and not wanting more in 6 months.

Get good bump stops. it'll take that jarring out of bottoming out. I'm a big fan of durobumps.

 

Are the 6112s progressive? I thought they were digressive but I could be wrong.

I'm a fan of Bilstein in terms of value and longevity. My old 4600s still were working hard after 23 years and 203,000 miles of use.

 

On my 2.5G my ADS piggyback bypass shocks were mounted just like factory, but the bushings were expected to hold the shock from rotating. Got dangerously close to the leaf pack and ripping off the resi, but new bushing kit had that. ADS BAR NONE has the best customer service in the industry. I've never had an instance where I emailed someone and they didn't get back to me within 30 minutes. The guys are unreal and are incredibly knowledgable. I punished my ADS shocks and they didn't even flinch. They're a much smaller company and have had to work out some kinks in the past, but I can tell you right now there's not a single shock company that you can call and get the level of service you do with ADS. Joel & Tyler have been amazing to work with anytime I called/emailed and I'm a nobody. I just got a factory replacement mid travel setup and they treated me like I was a sponsored racer.

 

No idea, but that combo was what toyota used on TRD Pro models from 2015-2018. with some bump stops I enjoyed it and I can say they're much better than 5100's. Dobinson IMS I've never been in a dobinson truck that didn't ride smooth.

 

Maybe not for long. Polo's whip is almost ready to hit the trails (again).

 

So... nothing I've ever seen on their website refers to 'progressive' or "digressive', and I haven't kept up to know how reasonable they are, but maybe look at Ironman4x4 coilover.
They call their stuff 'foam cell'.

But, anyway, I bought a set to replace worn out OEM suspension on our 2001 4Runner in, I think, 2019. That was before the pandemic (before supply line, increased demand from everyone wanting to be outside... in my way, and greedflation increases), and I discovered them just as they launched their USA presence. It's originally, an Australian company. At the time, they were situated about midway between Bilsteins and those race-worthy big names, King; Fox; ADS; Ikon.

I know progressive vs digressive is really about "valving", but, I admit, I don't understand all of how the valving works... flutter stacks and whatnot. But I do have a better understating than I used to, about how it feels.

Also, I'm trying to work out a theory: in my experience, shocks valves progressive tend to have linear spaced coils; shocks valves digressive, don't have coils evenly spaced up the entire coil. Caveat: as I said, I don't really understand the valving inside (there're a bunch of detailed threads out in the later gen sections though, if any of you are patient and want to learn). So far, just using this what-the-coils-look-like truck has been pretty spot on for me. If you all know I'm wrong, let me know an exception, and I'll update this post so I don't lead anyone astray.

The day we installed those Ironman4x4 shocks I noticed, for the first time, that the coilovers for the Ironman4x4 (as with progressives including Kings and Fox) had coils spaced the same distance from each other, all the way up. Whereas the coilovers on the OEM Bilsteins (digressive) had the coils spaced wider apart near the bottom of the coil, then spaced close together near the top. Look at a pic of King coilovers, then look at Bilstein; see what I mean?

That said, the 4R isn't as super comfy as my 2002 long travel Tundra-- the Ironman4x4 are far better than the worn out digressive shocks they replaced, but not as comfortable as my progressive Kings. But everything else is different between these 2 vehicles; it's not apples to oranges. The 4R has shocks on all 4 corners, whereas the Tundra has springs in back-- .

A lot of random thoughts here, but check out Ironman4x4.

 

Yeah I think 5100s on our 4R ride better than the 6100s on the truck, both have decent preload, I’d like to get away from that on the truck

 

I believe that springs with evenly spaced coils are often constant-rate, and springs with changing coil distances are progressive springs. The stock TRD coils are progressive, you can see how the coils towards the bottom of the spring get closer together. (and narrower, but I'm not sure if this makes a difference) I think that is what allows the ride to be decent even though the shock is digressive.

I've done a lot of suspension work to my Fiat Spider. I've tried 5 different suspension setups on that car, including different combos of springs and shocks. Every one of the springs that had differently spaced coils was a progressive rate spring. I would assume that the difference between evenly spaced and differently spaced coils is if it's progressive or not.

On that car, you want digressive shocks and a firm ride. I ended up with digressive shocks with extra rebound damping, and progressive rate springs all around. It rides nice and firm but it still smooths the little stuff fairly well because the spring rate is much lower at ride height.

 

Also in the same "in between" pricing, back when I was doing research pre-pandemic... check out Dobinson's. Also Australian.

Edit: I just saw @khooiii beat me to it. But that means that 2 of us agree, add Dobinson's to your Possibilities list.

 

Idk what it is but you can damn near throw anything on a 4r and it rides smooth.

 

oh and pass on ANYTHING OME. That old man emu stuff is stiff as hell for no damn reason.

 

Fuck dude.... do they call you "big hand"?

 

I made the belt skip on the gear drive when it got to my last nuckle before I shut it off…… it swole up like a softball

 

No choice. 700 is what they came with. There was no box or option to choose anything else.

Nope. I'm being realistic: I'll never use it.

 

Yeah, I saw you mention the 6112's with 650's. I think those will be perfect for you.

 

Which is so strange to me, because I rode in a 2nd gen taco with OME and it was smooth as butter on the rocks at HF

 

I've never had butter on the rocks, how smooth is that?