Your thoughts on the lack of workers- Great Dave Ramsey with Mike Row video

Boy howdy, you sure do nail those red scare buzzwords well!

All I see in that list is that the rates cut off way too early. It's a bit crazy to me that upper middle class (those making between $170k-540k) are paying nearly as high a percentage in taxes as someone making several million. Likewise, those making $170k-540k definitely notice the impact of ~30% tax rate compared to someone making several million.

The reality is that taxes have to be paid. When we allow the upper, upper bounds of the ultra wealthy to pay a smaller and smaller percent, that expected tax money doesn't just disappear; it gets redistributed to the middle class. This is exactly why the middle class is shrinking. The chart has already been posted up above, but back when America was 'great', the tax rates on the ultra wealthy were a lot higher.

 

I started by saying, why work to make more, when a higher percentage is taken by legalized theft, aka, taxes?

My point is still true. Doesn't matter how much you repeat the lie about taxes having to be paid.

Taxes do NOT have to be paid. Governments do very little do help the world. In reality, they do a whole lot more harm than they do good: they create? nothing. they consume? everything. Also, who's killed hundreds of millions of people in the last hundred years? I daresay, the #1 cause of death in this world? Perhaps the death industry, I mean, the medical industrial complex, is close to competing.

I repeat: it's all a lie.

But I can't convince you of that. You have to wake up to the truth yourself.

 

You understand how tax brackets work, right?

As for the rest of that, I'm not going to touch it with a 10' pole.

 

How did you miss the graph I posted of the history of the top federal rates? It was over 60% from the early 30s to early 80s... which incidentally was by far the best time in history for middle class wages and prosperity.

Things didn't turn to shit accidentally, we know exactly how to make a strong economy that benefits most of the people. And lowering tax rates on the wealthy ain't it.

 

Hi,

WOW, never expected to see this many replies... Here is my take.

Do I think we have a problem in general as a society, with entitlement, laziness and wussiness ... yes, for sure, and I think it effects both men and women! I grew up having to pay rent as soon as I graduated high school and having to work full time while going to school full time, having to buy my own first car and pay all related expenses. Nothing was given to me once I became an adolescent (except on Birthdays and Christmas), if I wanted something it was babysitting or working at Service Merchandise. I was going to go to the vocational technical high school instead of the regular public high school, but that was frowned upon because the thought was that you couldn't' get into college. I knew I didn't want the college life right out of high school anyway, but I digress, I ended up in the public high school which I did not thrive in academically, honestly I wouldn't' have even graduated if I hadn't taken my EMT class while I was a senior, those college credits helped me squeak by. This was in the 90s. We didn't have as much internet back then, so I don't know if that was truly the norm, but based on my social circle I think it was, other than maybe allowing kids the college years without paying rent and working full time. It was unheard of back then for any adolescence in high school to not have a part time job! We weren't allowed to sit inside all day playing video games or playing on the internet or phone!! We also had to do chores, if we wanted money before we were old enough for jobs, no work no allowance! Back then if you hurt yourself, or someone else did, no one rushed to call 911, they stopped to THINK first and ask themselves is this really a life threatening emergency. No one would call the ambulance for a broken bone (with a few exceptions of course where an ambulance should be called), because their child bumped there head, they have a tummy ache etc, we would have been embarrassed to do that!

Fast forward to mid 2000s and beyond, maybe even earlier then that, and kids are now GIVEN their first car, they are GIVEN their phones, they are GIVEN just about everything; all expenses paid by parents. whatever luxuries they want they are given, parents are going into debt so their child can have a "free" education, kids aren't being made to get jobs as soon as they are old enough, they are GIVEN their allowance without earning it! Most parents DEMAND that their kid goes to college upon graduation from high school, even if the kid has no clue what they want to do as a career (the reason why so many useless degrees are being bought at a cost of 100K plus). In my opinion, kids not knowing what they want to be when they grow up has to do with parents who coddle their child and insist they not work during high school, so they can "focus" on their studies, high schools not offering vocational offerings and co-op opportunities (this includes opportunities in the trades), and in some cases the kid just hasn't experienced enough of the working world to know. The parents who think that their kid cannot do well in school if they have to work part time too, do they truly think that a kid is not capable of multitasking, or that they do not need to learn how to do that NOW?! You know what I learned by working at Service Merchandise for 5.00 an hour? That I didn't want to spend a life working for 5.00 an hour (that was minimum wage in the mid 90s) or spend my working days at a cash register or answering phones, or stocking shelves, and that was the drive I needed to get through college. You know what happens to kids who have never worked a low paying job or done chores at home that are labor intensive and money poor, or that have never been made to WORK FOR WHAT THEY WANT, they don't develop that drive to do better, to do more, they don't have the equation in their head that HARD WORK equates to a BETTER FUTURE (reward)! I work on the ambulance and I can quite honestly say, the statement "pussification of America" is in fact true and it has happened. People can no longer tolerate discomfort, especially young people, and no one has the ability to think critically. No word of a lie, this is something someone called 911 for recently, I will change some info for obvious reasons. Ambulance 10 respond for the 15 year old with ankle pain for two weeks. arrive on scene to find a teenager laying in bed, and two parents who state they cannot get said child out of bed to go to the ER for her knee pain, she "says she cannot get up". Keep in mind this is not an acute injury, this is chronic ankle pain! So instead of these two parents telling little Jane that she needs to get her butt out of bed if she wants to seek medical care, their decision making process leads them to believe they should call 911 instead. I get into Janes room, confirm that this isn't an acute injury and I then tell her we are not carrying her out of the house and out of her bed and that she is going to have to get up, I first said can you use those, pointing to the crutches that were leaning against the wall. She says yes and WHOA suddenly little Jane is capable of getting up out of bed and getting to the car. You know why Jane got out of bed? Because she realized someone who wasn't about to coddle her was there and that she had no choice! These two parents didn't have a pot to pee in judging by the living space, and a 2000.00 ambulance bill wasn't going to help them, but they also didn't have the balls to tell a 15 year old with an ankle boo boo to get her ass up, which too me is appalling! This goes back to parents who now coddle their kids to death, to the point that a 15 year old claimed she could not even get up and out of bed because of her two weeks of ankle pain! We now get 911 calls on the regular for people, who 15 plus years ago, would have been assisted to a private vehicle and driven to the urgent care or ER, with no thoughts of needing to call 911. People are entitled and expect to be catered to in the ambulance and they make the assumption that they will be brought right to a room because they came in by ambulance, HA, imagine their faces when we bring their entitled selves right to the waiting room with everyone else.... My point is not that you should not call an ambulance if you think you need one, but that society has been SO coddled and taught to PANIC instead fo thinking, that the use of 911 has grown at an astonishing rate, and it isn't because there are more emergencies happening, but rather EVERYTHING has become a perceived emergency in the eyes of the public!

My solution;

1) Stop with the cookie cutter public school system. Time to start thinking outside the box, and in my opinion EVERY high school should be offering co-ops in.
trades, healthcare, and financial/business jobs. Let young people experience different work places BEFORE they have to decide on one.

2) Parents, for the love of god, please stop coddling your kids; make them work to earn what they want -let them feel the power of an earned reward!

3) Society needs to make it ok and acceptable for kids who do not want to immediately go to college or who do not want to go to college at all, it's ok for them to work for a year or even two before they decide what the right career path for them is. Let them try different trades and jobs. I think there is this big societal sigh of disappointment when a parent says their child isn't going to college, and that isn't ok, you can still be successful with plain old hard work and informal learning! If your kid doesn't know what they want to do when they grow up- DON'T FORCE COLLEGE ON THEM! College is an expensive undertaking, and if they don't have a passion for it they won't get through it, it is much more work then high school!!

4) Teach your kids to THINK, let them make mistakes and learn from them, even if it hurts to see it (as long as it won't be a detriment to their physical health). Don't make all of their decisions for them and/or build a protective fence around them when they do fuck up!

5) Embrace the suck and teach your kids to do the same. I am not saying go through life miserable, but when you are suffering because you are doing hours of yard work, or running three miles, or whatever else you don't want to do, embrace it, it will make you stronger and given you a brighter outlook and the tolerance for hard work, something that is lacking in most people. You will learn to appreciate your "chill out" days even more!

6). Teach your kids that life IS going to give them lemonade quite often, and help them learn how to cope with disappointment, and that does't mean you protecting them from it. Through my work in healthcare I have come to the realization that a huge part of the mental health crisis in young people, is that they were always protected from the negativity of the world and from disappointment, so when they get out into the world and they realize that isn't reality, they cannot handle it mentally, and the only place to run to is the mental health system.

7) Be respectful and teach others respect; This doesn't stop at your kids, it's anyone you see who is being an ass. Stand up for others and call out people who are being disrespectful. This touches on the "entitlement syndrome" that has really afflicted society! Teach people that they don't "deserve" what they didn't earn! People expect handouts, that is not the answer... teach them to fish instead of taking other's catch! Teach your kids that they don't "deserve" anything just because they simply exist, and that goes back to not giving them handouts, make 'em work for it!

8) When, what you perceive as a crisis occurs; learn to stop and think, take control of your emotions, and put things in prospective. This is a great way to teach yourself and your kids how to mediate their own anxiety and stress. If we stop, take a deep breath, and LOOK AT THE BIGGER picture often times things aren't as bad as the panicked part of our brain would think. Use your Lobes instead of just your Amygdala! Teach yourself how to allow the cognitive brain to turn down the emotional brain, and over power it! You are probably asking yourself WTH this has to do with this commentary, but it has everything to do with it... Your cognitive brain will help you embrace the suck, where as your emotional brain will tell you to quit and go back to bed.


My final thoughts are that, as someone else posted, the CEOs of the world have increasingly gotten more and more greedy, while claiming "we cannot afford to pay you better". The last hospital I worked at the CEO was making 4 MILLION a year, while complaining that the hospital couldn't afford to hire more staffing. I do think the lack of pay, which is most likely secondary to CEO GREED, is a big factor in why people are leaving certain jobs, or just plain refusing to do them at all, while at the same time this should be the drive for people to work there way out of those jobs, and that isn't what's happening. Instead they are working less or choosing not to work at all, which also isn't the answer.

What else would you expect from a society that doesn't have to get up to use a book to look something up, or leave the house to socialize with friends, or to shop... Everything is at our finger tips while we lay in bed!

-T

 

Just because federal tax brackets may be lower doesn't mean my point isn't still true: graduated tax brackets are a disincentive to make more money. And it is the communist way of doing things.

Everyone is welcome to believe what they want. Doesn't mean it's true. In fact, you likely believe what you were taught in "school" and "college", regardless of how true it is.

 

Flat tax ftw. Make it all 8-10% and lets be done with it. Then scale back the IRS, there won't be a high demand for volume in their services anymore. I'm over it, we need to do flat tax already, but big business and wall street have their grubby hands on Washington's pockets and it'll never happen. It would solve a LOT of stuff and quell many arguments.

But this is also not wrong ^^

Actually, communist way of doing things would be to redistribute gains to all countrymen, equally.
Socialist way would level the playing field of opportunity so all countrymen have the same foundational base with which to build up.

I don't believe either really fits the case you guys are speaking about, for the record.

The fault lies squarely on the media.

Notice how much worse things got when Ted Turner made cable news a thing? All bets on accuracy in content went out the window when it happened. News suddenly because about profits, ratings, etc.

Notice how much worse things got when social media became a thing? Because now you were not only getting bombarded while at a TV screen, but on your computer screen, then on your smartphone screen. You literally can't get away with it.

And none of it is fact checked. And anyone can say almost anything, without recourse. And it's not needed to be in a discrete location like it once was, were the fringe shit would only make it to AM radio, not FM. Now falshehoods and misinformation are peddled globally, and controlled by very few people.

Even our representatives in congress are trying to be as clownish as possible, putting on an act, with hopes of getting celebrity newscaster contracts worth millions, but act totally normal when there's no cameras in the meeting. The floor of Congress has become an auditioning stage: Use the office to make millions getting early info on investing to make millions, then land that cushy on-air job for millions a year after your constituents get tired of you

We've really gotta do something to get media in check. That's what's helping keep us divided, misinformed, and worst of all DISTRACTED while our pockets are fleeced and the middle class has been all but decimated before our eyes.

 

Granted, it's not everything the communist desire. But it is a big step. A controlled "public" school system is another huge step.

+100. Along with controlling the schools, they also control the media.

And most people believe it, which is entirely understandable. You could say it's being gullible; I prefer the term innocent.

One shouldn't have to question every single thing you hear from a talking head in government or the media. It's natural to trust those that put on the impression of importance, power, and prestige.

But the reality is, everything is just about opposite of what they say.

In one way, they make it easy for those that are awakening. The truth is likely the opposite of what they say!

 

I prefer the term "ignorant" but in the sense of 'unaware, lacking knowledge, or ignoring what's in front of them', rather than the context most people use it these days, a synonym for stupid or uneducated.

We pass a lot of signs all day long, it's there, but just like road trips leading to highway drone, the populous is on autopilot and going through the motions. It's unfortunate.

 

On a segway - that's a domokun! You ever bartendered in Chicago?

 

Those published tax rates totally ignore the deductions, including the standard deduction, that effectively make it so that the bottom 50%+ of earners pay near ZERO percent of all taxes paid to the IRS, while the top 10% of earners pay 90%+. Many people think that the ultra wealthy should be taxed on what they OWN, not on what they EARN. That is asinine. No matter how much or how little you own, it is YOUR property. If you paid taxes on the money you used to buy it, you should not be taxed on it again, at least at the federal level.

 

I disagree with the premise of simply writing off the accomplishments and success of other people with the stroke of a pen as the result of some kind of “privilege”. I don’t know everyone’s story and they don’t know mine. Im not going to sit here and type out my life story to see if I qualify for some sort of victimhood, or conversely privileged assessment. I don’t subscribe to those notions. I want to live in a world that rewards us with success based on merit, not victimhood.

When people are told they are victims and that those with success got there by way of privilege, they will often choose to be victims. It’s just easier than trying and putting the work in. We are all dealt different hands, some better than others. If you play them well, America is still the best place in the world for a shot at prosperity. It’s incredibly far from perfect. Sure, I believe corporate greed is an issue and all of us lower and middle class people SHOULD be doing better than we are. The fact is sitting here and complaining about it on the tundra forum doesn’t change anything. Capitalism is not perfect but it’s better than the alternatives that have been tried. No other economic system has lifted more people from poverty.

This victim mentality does nobody any good. We are all a victim of some sort of circumstance, but you can’t let that define you. Telling young people they are victims, and organizing them into a hierarchy of victim status based on their ethnicity, sexual preferences, economic strata, and gender does nobody any favors. We make excuses for our failure before ever even trying.

The bar is so low today, it’s never been easier to be exceptional in the crowd. Pick a field to work that has demand and room for growth and greater opportunity. If you do that and then do the simple things like show up to work reliably, be on time, show you are attentive and there to learn and just generally act like you give a damn and you will succeed. Even if you can’t progress to your desired destination at a particular company you will gain the skills to do so at another one, or even start your own. You may not make a million, but you can still do better than a majority of the worlds population. Notice America has an immigration problem of everyone trying to get in, not out. It’s so good here even the haters won’t leave.

 

Another communist premise is "forced equalization". "it's not fair!" they holler.

I'm with you; I agree in equal opportunity.

In typical communist fashion, they say one thing, and mean something very else. That's very different than forced equalization, which is what they mean when they say "equal opportunity". It's hiring on merit and skill-set, instead of the current version of hiring quotas, and "diversity" (another lie).

As for "immigration", that's one viewpoint. Another, which I believe is the main reason many of them are clammering to get in with their new sneakers and iPhones, is government handouts, which, put another way, is buying of votes.

An important thing to consider, which I teach my children, is not so much what's happening, but WHY it's happening. WHY do the talking heads lie through their teeth? WHY are their hordes of illegals coming into the US? WHY is the "public school" system so atrocious? WHY are phrases like "equal opportunity" used when it's really a form of reverse racism? WHY do "they" want you to believe something that's blatantly false to anyone who looks at it even half closely?

None of this is by accident. It's very very intentional.

 

I get what you are saying. I understand why you and your generational cohorts are disillusioned with how things have turned out. My anecdotal experiences and observations do not = a large enough data set to be statistically significant no doubt. However that doesn’t mean that the 4 data points I am reporting don’t exist or are meaningless.

As for the 18 year olds about to graduate here in a few weeks and set off to college and take on student loan debt while obtaining useless degrees: their parents and their educators have failed them. We have a badly broken education system run exclusively by a class of people who value college education above seemingly all else regardless of logic. Plus there are plenty of parents out there who don’t have real conversations with their kids about the reality of the world, how money works, what economic conditions are like, and who also came up in the mindset of “college degree = success” even though their own results don’t reflect that. Their parents and many of their teachers are my generation X cohorts, and we’re failing these kids.

However in some cases these kids are also too stupid, lazy, or inattentive to have paid any mind to the world around them. Every generation has plenty of strait up dumb dumbs that cannot or will not achieve no matter how much opportunity, guidance, and hand holding they are given. They have to get bitch slapped by the world, and find out that stupid hurts. Some of them wake up, but most of them just get crushed. It’s sad but we haven’t yet figured out how to make 100% of humans succeed.

As far as your points about achieving equal quality of life in the same career path as earlier generations. Yep, it’s not as achievable on a single income, or even dual incomes in some geographical areas. It sucks. The most obvious solution is to vote with your feet and get the hell out of super expensive areas and go make a better life for yourself in place you can afford. I did exactly that, and so do many others. Your ancestors did it. So can you.

 

Nope. I've lived on or near base for most of my first 20ish years, between LA, NY, FL, TX, CA, the last 20 in GA, and the years in between mostly in FL again and a couple of years in Switzerland, Germany and Italy for work. I was in the bar/food service world starting at age 14 though, through my early 20s, and I've visited the windy city once.

I don't see anyone in this thread necessarily saying or suggesting anyone should be written off, but your words struck me because the viewpoint is a two way street, a street you and I both share.

And for the record, I'm quoting you a few times down here, but it's not me attacking you or what you're saying. You're bringing some fresh thoughts to the chat here, and I appreciate that.

I honestly think if you polled everyone in this thread whether they wanted to live in a world that rewards success based on merit vs. victimhood, 100% of the folks here would agree with you. Because you're goddamn right!

That's exactly how it should be. In Utopia, everything is based on merit, and you get back exactly the effort you put out. It's a tad communistic maybe even a little socialistic, but I'll take it, if it means we get to ditch the broke-ass setup we got today.

But naw. We don't live in Utopia, we just dream of building a little slice of what we each think is Utopia and spending as many retirement years in it. For me that's sitting at my fishing hole every morning getting a line wet, thinking about my kids, and hopefully grandkids eventually

The sentence you wrote before that last one is pretty crucial though. "I don't know everyone's story and they don't know mine." When I read that I took that as you saying "I want things you earn in life to be gained irrespective of gender/background/nationality/race/creed/color/socioeconomic background, etc., you should earn what you get based on your output." It's not far from what the women's rights movement was about.

And yet ... my wife, in 2024, still somehow makes 18% less than the lowest-paid male counterpart at the same position in her global organization. Although she has not only a decade more experience, but an extra degree, and made the company net 30% more revenue last year, and has more successful teams nationally.

What that says to me, and what other people have been saying throughout this thread is, plenty of people are working just as hard as others, yet getting ahead at a far slower pace, because we don't live in a place where there is any fair metric where "work output of X gets you ahead Y amount". And it's exactly because of everyone's respective story, which you don't know - and they don't know yours either - but ... getting to learn each other's story and helping fix things that are broken because our stories don't match is exactly how we help each other figure out why we're not making the same gains for the same work output.

Truth of the matter is, the equal-input-gets-equal-output ideology only works if you can reset the playing field and/or reset the brains of the people playing, which nobody ever wants to do, because they're worried their progress is going to be erased somehow. That fear of being erased is irrational, but it's driven the course of this country throughout its history. It's why people are so scared of "equal rights". It's why women and people of color couldn't vote. It's held back a LOT of people, and the generations born from them.

Humans are inherently prejudiced so they'll never be blind about the ling list of characteristics I spit out up there, and the core fundamental you need to get ahead - an education - varies by zip code, and capital exists for a limited number of people, partially because poverty is generational for the vast majority of those below poverty threshold. The same way people don't want to be judged by what their ancestors may've done in the past, people don't want to be shackled by the financial/work failures of their parents. But that's how it happens. Like, all the time.

At some point, something has to give. Given how unwilling anyone is to help out anyone else these days, I don't see it happening. Given how badly parents failed to pass along any teachings on how to do anything to me and peers in the Silent/GenX generations, and many of those folks from the same era as those failed parents are doing a piss-poor job running things, I can only imagine. They can't get out of their own way to save anything.

Curious: What happens when nobody shows you how to "play a hand"? This is one example of why a reset would be needed. The school 10 blocks south of me is a veritable daycare and sheer hell. The school 15 blocks northwest of me is sending kids to the local technical institute. And that's just the education piece. It's not that these kids don't want to learn. They aren't being afforded the right to a quality education, free of disruption, because they're restricted to a shitty zip code.

Our education system sucks.

As someone with a pretty distinct nationalist streak, I appreciate your pride in our great nation. But you're also wrong. The overwhelming majority of countries in central and northern Europe who are primarily practicing social democrats, democratic centralism, democratic socialism, some of those with a strong capitalistic bent, have both pulled more people out of and prevented more people from falling into both poverty and extreme poverty.

They did that mostly using the same types of safety nets we once had back in the 50s-70s when America's domestic output and American manufacturing was off the chain, but those policies have long been gutted, much to the chagrin of those who already made it up the social and economic ladder - people at the top don't like to share downward, just like on TikTok, everyone wants to be one of the chosen few, and some people really get off on pissing on others below.

Tell me: What do you reckon it does when you tell the working generation, let's say it's whatever generation is in their 20s, "You're lazy". Painted with a wide brush of course, "Your entire generation is lazy". "You're not getting ahead in life because you're not putting in the work, stop playing the victim card"...

Let's go back to something you said earlier: "I don't know everyone's story and they don't know mine."

If I lived by what you said, I could never paint with a broad paintbrush, saying the ills of what's happening are due to victim complex. Because I don't know everyone's story. And not knowing even a fraction of their stories, I can't make a fair comparison to see if the person that's failing might've accidentally gotten dealt one card while everyone else at the blackjack table got two, and some were able to take three or four.

What drives people here isn't just opportunity. It's safety.

But I hope nobody fools themselves, because I don't know a single person on this forum whose family wasn't an immigrant one or more generations back. Mine came over in the 1600s because Catholics were committing genocide against the Huguenots because their flavor of religion wasn't "proper". We're a nation of immigrants and that will never change. Your brother is your brother is your brother. If anything, immigrants work harder than "victim complex" people ... which do you have more respect for, and which would you rather have in the workforce?

 

This is not distinguishing between legal immigration, with a legal process and limitations, and illegal immigration.

Countries are destroyed by massive illegal immigration. It's happening the world over.

The question is, WHY is this being not just allowed, but pushed? The "powers that be" behind this aren't stupid.

 

So, I agree with you on some points and disagree on so many more. This conversation could continue for quite a while. I’ll be frank, I just don’t have the time to go back and forth with you on every one of these points while being the dad and husband I want to be when I get home from work. Maybe once I do that early retirement think I’ve been talking about, I’d be up for such a conversation. For now I’ll stick to the briefer conversations about tundra parts, and skip out on this political and philosophical stuff. To those that like to really get down to the nitty gritty on these subjects, enjoy yourselves.

 

To fully understand what you're saying, it'd be helpful to see a list of countries currently destroyed by excessive illegal immigration. I know there were some issues in Europe dealing with the fallouts in Libya and Syria, and in Poland after Russia invaded Ukraine, but I'm a 25-year employee of a Swiss entity and have a ton of coworkers across Europe who assure me they're not seeing problems. To the topic of the thread at least, immigration has little of nothing to do with work output or work ethic in our workforce. It's a red herring, a distraction point.

Our workforce isn't being destroyed by immigrants nearly as much as domestic terrorism via losers who want to amplify ideology that was utterly defeated in two world wars already. If I had to pick which is worse, the family sneaking across the border from Nicaragua to flee cartel violence, or the white nationalist wannabe militant dropout living in his parent's basement playing soldier boy with an AR, lighting up parking lots and shopping malls while putting all of our hardworking LEOs at risk - as if those men and women who deserve every ounce of our respect don't have enough BS to deal with on-beat day to day - I'll trade 1 of those losers for 2 immigrant families in our workforce any day.

In all seriousness though, I get what you're saying. It is wise to be careful. Letting an unlimited number of foreign people in, with foreign ideas and foreign practices, comes with a risk of everyone else becoming the minority, and we see how minorities are treated around the world. That's ultimately what we did when we landed here and setup shop, it's a valid fear.

The cool part many misunderstand about immigrants is, most'll work harder than normal, try their damnedest to live honest so they fit in, and adapt as best as possible so they don't make a ripple, get blacklisted in the community, or even worse get deported. It's a no-brainer to have more here, because those are the exact qualities I see a lot of people in this thread complaining that we don't see enough of in our workforce here today. You'd think they'd want more of that. Unless what people are saying is the problem isn't actually the problem.

 

One side of this debate is looking at circumstances as the main driver. The other side is looking at choices people make. The reality is both are important, and the question is: given your circumstances, what choices are you going to make? Get resentful and bitch about how hard it is or about how everyone who has done what you won’t do is “privileged”? Or are you going to go do the hard thing?

There are, right now, 36 homes (mostly condos) in the Nashville area priced $200-250k. 20% is $40-$50k. Do you want to own a home? Get a second job. Get a third. Look at apartments as cheap and small as you can stomach. Coupon your brains out when it comes to groceries. Skip Netflix. Do free things for fun (hiking, Saturday evening concerts at the park, free art classes, etc). Drive old cars. This is how we finished off the remaining $45k of our student debt in 18 months on <$65k annual income. That was 2007, and I had really high rent (this worked against us when paying off our debt). It was only $200 less than my mortgage payment is now in 2023. Get that $45k. Put it down on a house. Start gaining equity. In time, it can work for you. Either you make the choices, or you don’t. Is it harder than it used to be? Sure. My first home in 2009 cost me $140k. There is nothing within an hour’s drive of Nashville at that price range these days. But remember, Nashville was the fastest growing city in the country only a couple years ago. It’s still near the very top. There’s a LOT of demand to live in the area. But this is a very big country, and there are LOTS of areas that do not have that same kind of demand.

I will say this: I still have a long way to meet some of my goals, but I am making progress, and I’m glad I stopped listening to naysayers a long time ago.

 

I'm not sure it's off-topic?

There are two types of illegals. The ones portrayed by the controlled and lying media are the "poor families escaping <some convenient circumstance>", complete with sorry looking pictures. The other, likely reality, is what you see outside the controlled media. You see mostly angry young men wearing new clothes, new shoes, with their iPhones, that don't look like they walked 100s of miles to get there.

The former, disregarding the clear actors, are likely to be interested in integrating and working hard. Good candidates for a legal process to immigrate.

The latter are here for another reason, and aren't really interested in working hard. They want what they were promised when they were bused and flown in to the border.

Both are favored by the communists for "equal opportunity" as long as it suits them. Afterwards, they are treated like cattle.

It's all part of an underlying symptom of a much, much, larger problem.

Regardless, if we were talking about this in person, the topic will change. Does that mean you aren't allowed to discuss it? I'm not sure who brought up immigration. I was pointing out the classic trick of not distinguishing between a legal process to immigrate, and illegal immigration, and saying "we all came from immigration".

P.S. One could argue North America was destroyed by England, Spain, and France sending in "hordes" of people by the literal boatload.

 

I found out real early that getting an offer from another company (and be willing to take it) was the only way to boost pay. They take advantage of you if you are settled... just how the game is played.

And if they can't hire people, and those people are telling them the pay is too low... duh? You gotta pay what the market says. This is a big part of the "can't hire" and "nobody wants to work" BS.

 

A very troll thing to say. I don't believe anything except as a working principal and after a great deal of study and pondering. And yes, that ends up contrary to pretty much everything I was taught. I bet I understand economics a lot better than you (and Ayn Rand). I studied physics and engineering in college, and I only "believe" it because it works.

 

There's no reason to throw insults.

Free thinkers are rare. Kudos.

 

Ain't this the truth. I'm actually surprised to see we're 5 pages in on this thread and it hasn't devolved to, nor is it full of, regurgitated talking points and personal jabs. And folks are actually being civil. Kudos on that too, unless the mods have been quietly cleaning and I missed it

 

True….true.

 

It almost like adults can still have civil conversations while disargeeing on things.

We can't be having such nonsense in 2023. Quick, everyone pick a side then immediately starting hating and insulting the opposing side!

 

I still don't want to see a free-for-all/politics-OK subforum on here though. I've been posting on internet forums since they evolved out of Usenet, and on BBSes before that. What happened here within the se 5 pages would've never happened without the 'no politics' rule existing. Someone would've invoked something by end of page 1.

 

Agreed. The lack of politics is one of the big reasons I spend the vast majority of my forum time here insted of elsewhere. I spend more time here than I do on the forum I help run because I'm sick of seeing politics being argued everywhere.

 

Politics are important and should be discussed. Is it not one of the most driving forces in what happens in the world today? And since the world seems to be continually further progressing to hell on earth, that would imply there's something wrong with politics?

Granted 'politics' is a pretty loose and ambiguous term.

The challenge is many people have a hard time realizing they don't know everything, and aren't willing to have a meaningful discussion that may disturb their precious viewpoint, and certainly not change their mind! So instead tactics like yelling, shaming, changing topics, and censorship are used.

 

What's wrong with politics?

I mean, it's really damn divisive because some can't help but treat it like a team sport, akin to a gladiator ring, where every discussion is a fight to the death. I've watched dudes kill rivals after football games because their team lost, and their behavior was half as rabid as some get with their politics online. Garbage like that isn't conducive to maintaining a peaceful and friendly online community for enthusiasts to discuss their shared passion.

While we may not all agree on our politics, I think 90%+ of the people on here agree, Tundras kick ass, and we signed up here either for help with our Tundras, or to talk about how much Tundras kick ass. And I mean, this is a truck forum, which exists for the purpose of ... DISCUSSING TRUCK STUFF! Shocking, I know. Especially with a site address and name like "Tundras.com", eh? That dot-com looks like a walking advertisement for a political party, right? (j/k)

While politics do drive everything - love it or hate it - the overwhelming majority of people come here because they want to talk about Tundras, either as Tundra owners, enthusiasts, potential owners, and maybe even fetishists, I dunno

But yeah, the website address isn't TundrasAndPolitics.com or TundraPoliticalForum.com ... if someone is looking for politics, the name and branding of this forum suggest this probably isn't the place for it. Anyone is welcome to setup a forum at those domains if it really pisses 'em off enough that politics aren't welcome here.

I can tell you after being on dozens of other special interest forums over the last 25 years or so that forums have been a thing, political discussion almost always leads to tribalism, and tribalism leads to exclusion. You can't have a diverse, healthy community of enthusiasts from all walks of life with rampant political tribalism in effect.

I can also tell you, there are several folks on here I WOULDN'T typically talk to in real life because "my kind" might not be invited, or I just wouldn't bother because I've got plenty of experience with certain echo chambers, and echo chambers aren't interesting to me. But the fact I can sit here and bond with those same folks over trucks and not hafta worry about whether their politics or lifestyle matches mine --- that's pretty damn special. And it's getting increasingly hard to find. Music, food, trucks, outdoorsman life, technology ... finding online forums these days where you can enjoy those topics without someone shoving their political ideology down your throat is tough.

If not already clear, I love the fact public political stuff is banned here. I appreciate the mods don't tiptoe around about banning those who can't follow even the most basic rule of 'no politics'. Besides, the ones who usually get repeatedly or perma-banned for it lack discipline, are often obnoxious, and tend to be the most gaper-esque of assholes, the kind of simpleton who walks around in life wearing their politics on their sleeve, flying their respective political flags and decals all over everything, who know their way is the right way and can't be persuaded away, even with blatant facts. If tribalism were a t-shirt, they'd have it tattooed on their body. Hell ... some actually do. The only thing that serves to do is attract those who think exactly like you, and repel those who don't. That's what sows division and is tearing us apart.