Your thoughts on the lack of workers- Great Dave Ramsey with Mike Row video

"Nobody wants to work" is such a crock of shit.

My peer (and younger) employees have just woken up to the way the world has gone since we entered the workforce (thx COVID). Why work harder when, at the end of the year, you'll only get a 3% raise? Why shake hands when the position above you will be filled by an external hire? Why be loyal to a company when they've cut pensions/will lay you off without a second thought?

The reality is that a lot of millennials/gen z have realized that no matter how hard they work they will never own a house, have a family, or live the American dream. So why bother? Might as well phone it in and try to take advantage of your 'prime living years' instead of giving it up in the company mine to grind out slightly more material goods.

 

I don’t know why I’m arguing with someone on the internet.

 

I call bs, I was divorced in 2016, by the time the state of Washington got done with me, I was worth about 23k. The avg cost of houses in Washington was over 300k, now its closer 450k. I knew I'd never be able to afford another home in Washington, I bought a small lot 1.5hr commute and lived in an rv for 5 yrs and squirelled away every penny I could, amounted to about 70k, sold the lot and moved to flyover country, and bought a 3br 2.5ba 2 car garage house on a 1/2 acre with cash. Don't tell me you can't buy a house, you work, you save, you move if you have to. Took me 6 yrs to recover and have no house payment, no car payments, no debt outside the rv, I still pay $270 a month for.

 

People are less willing to delay gratification and live frugally until they have a solid financial foundation. Lack of discipline.

 

That's great, and I'm happy you were able to make it work out, but I don't think that really disproves what I'm saying.

Previous generations didn't have to spend years of their life squirreling away every penny to buy a house in a flyover state. Even on a single income, boomers were able to buy a house (wherever they wanted), have a family, and climb the corporate ladder. That just isn't the case anymore.

You can call it bs, but it doesn't change the fact that the outlook for most millennials/gen z is pretty disappointing for the richest country in the world. I can't blame them for not giving a shit after the carrot was taken away.

 

The American dream is still alive and well if you’re willing to work for it and live within your means. I feel like I’m living it. Not to toot my own horn but as a younger man I think I’m a half decent example and feel blessed and appreciative every day. Im far from rich but doing just fine. We don’t come from rich families, and weren’t given anything but a good example to follow by our parents

I’m 30 and married with one child…so far. Wife is 27. We have 2 paid off and reliable low mileage Toyotas 17’ and 19’ in the garage. We own a paid off 18’ travel trailer we get to enjoy frequently. We own a home worth nearly triple the remaining mortgage balance. We both have pensions and supplemental retirement funds through work, max out Roth IRA’s and contribute to an additional non-retirement fund. No debt other than our mortgage, and a comfortable cushion in the bank. I project we are poised to retire in our early to mid 50s if we really wanted. That or just do less stressful jobs. That could change as we grow our family.

A definite contributor to being in the fairly comfortable position we are in comes from loosely following the Dave Ramsey principles and listening to his podcasts. We have since strayed a bit when it comes to his investment vs mortgage payoff steps. I feel we are doing pretty decent on the incomes of a school teacher and an hvac guy (one of those skilled trade jobs Mike Rowe is always preaching about) in what is not a low cost of living area. All of this to say it’s still possible to thrive in todays America if you keep your nose to the grindstone, but I would agree it becomes harder by the year as of late.

 

My parents are boomers, so are my in-laws. They didn’t have anything handed to them on a silver platter. My parents did have to save up for years to buy a house, and when they did mortgage interest rates were well over 12%. My dad ran a microbiology lab for a hospital, and although he made good money he walked to work for several years in order to save money to put towards a home. My mom worked for the state once my brother and I were both in kindergarten. They both worked quite a bit to get ahead, and they worked in jobs that were in demand.

My in-laws also had to work hard and live a very frugal life to get ahead. Nothing got handed to them either until they were retired and my mother-in-law’s parents passed away. Pretty large inheritance if I did the math correctly based on the share the grandkids got (my wife). They still live like they’re broke because it’s ingrained in them. You could give my father-in-law $10 million and he would still buy a used car and drive it until the wheels fall off.

If our younger generation wants to succeed in the economy of the United States they should consider:

1.) Don’t go to college to study useless bullshit. If you don’t have the academic aptitude and discipline to study mathematics/sciences, engineering, medicine, accounting, or finance then DO NOT go to a 4 year undergraduate program. You’re wasting your time and money. Everything else is what is called a hobby.

2.) Following your dream or your passion in life as a career is bullshit 99.999999% of the time. The goal of working is to trade your time, skills, and energy for as much money as you can possibly bring in. Dreams and passions are for hobbies, if you make them your job pretty soon you won’t be able to stand them anyway. Maybe once you’ve made a bunch of money then you can retire early and try out that following your dreams for work.

3.) Ignore the guidance counselor at high school trying to push you into college if you know you can’t hack bulletin #1. Instead look at trade schools, and enroll in shop classes or Vocational classes in high school so you can figure out a trade you might like.

4.) Once you land on a skilled trade or college isn’t in the cards, pursue it as best you can. Trade school, military service (make sure your contract MOS is air tight!), walking into a shop to be a gofer… whatever it takes.

 

What gives you the idea that no one had to spend years of their life squirrelling away every penny? My in-laws busted their asses to build their first house; they did it when they were 40, having saved up about $90K over 22 years of living in about a 900 sq ft house, with him working @ a local car dealership. He didn't have sh*t handed to him. My own father did very well for himself, that I'll admit, but that was after 6 years in Vietnam and then busting his @$$ working his way up from basic line guy @ AT&T.

I'm not saying that things haven't gotten worse in some respects for later generations, but TBH assertions like that ignore a *LOT* of bits of information (such as higher interest rates, as CD outlined above).

 

The most frustrating thing about trying to keep following this thread is that it's filled with anecdotes instead of linking scientific studies.

"Rich guy says this in a video" and "my parents pulled it off with hard work" are no replacement for hard data, full stop.

 

+ a bajillion. I would say a lack of vision for it, too.

If that’s your mindset, then yes you will live up to it. But this is exactly what I have done. And I’m still 25+ years away from retirement. Maybe I’m the exception to the rule, but apparently so are my attention span and my ability to set goals and delay my own gratification. My wife and I cut out all the excess spending, stopped eating out all the time, etc, and we paid off 3 degrees worth of student loans in 18 months. This was the end of our “debt snowball”. Learned that from Dave Ramsey, and haven’t followed him since, lol. That was 17 years ago on a combined household income of <$65k. We’ve been a single income family since. Three kids, two paid-off vehicles, a great property worth 4x what I owe on it, solid investments, etc etc. We’re still setting long-term goals, working toward them, and constantly re-evaluating and making adjustments. This is the way.

Your mindset is your greatest weapon. The young guy out there who thinks it’s all pointless is never going to get anywhere. If he pays for a bunch of useless subscriptions for his own amusement, buys a grande Frappuccino every morning, eats out often, goes out drinking on a regular basis, and trades in for the newest iPhone each time it comes out, then he is working to cement himself into his economic stratum. It is mind-blowing how much money even lower income people waste on frivolous crap every single day.

Life is hard. It’s either hard today because you deny yourself almost all comforts and use the brain, body, and energy given to you to work toward goals, or it’s hard the rest of your life because you squandered your best working years on comfort and amusement. Life is ALWAYS hard. Choose your hard.

 

Now see here. Let's not confuse the topic with logic and common sense. You're right, though. Come @ me with hard data and it's tough to argue with it. With all of his being said, frankly, discussions about boomers vs. Gen-Z or what have you are always going to be silly.

For example, I've got no problem admitting that the dollar doesn't go as far now as it did in, say, 1960/1970. That's proven by many studies. But the same studies never mention the fact that inflation was also high as hell at times (e.g., up to an 18.5% interest rate on a home loan); the fact that much of the earning power boomers had honestly came down to being 'lucky' enough to be born during a time that the U.S. economy was booming post-WWII while not having to deal with the devastation that Europe dealt with; the fact that politicians seem to be no better at dealing with fiscal policy and are just as prone to corruption; and I could go on. (I'd like to point out this whole 'boomer' phenomenon is not unique to the US...I've read tons of articles and seen studies that highlight the fact that it occurred in Europe as well.)

IMHO (and this is only my opinion, but I think it probably could be backed up by data), yes, boomers had it easier, due (again, IMHO) almost entirely to the post-war boom in the economy, and therefore the fact that it was quite a bit easier to get a job w/o a college degree and support a family on it easier than we can now; but let's not pretend boomers had it 'easy' - I mean, the Korean War, Vietnam War, JFK assassination, ridiculous interest rates during the 70's, and so on.

And it's not just Gen-Z that is feeling/will feel the effects. I'm 47, and am constantly seeing emails and articles about social security and how it'll pay out less and I'll have to save more....and *NO ONE* in Congress will do wha would actually need to be done to shore things up, because everyone (on any side) wants their pet projects and social programs.

 

Okay, I'll make one last post here before I drop out since I've now received three N=1 responses that oppose what I said. Let me just clarify what I didn't say - I didn't say that all boomers had it easy, nor did I say there are no lazy millennials. There are tall trees, there are small trees, there are even some growing in rocks; what I'm trying to paint is the forest.

Let me just give my N=1: my wife and I are both millennials with STEM degrees working demanding jobs. We own a house and live a fairly comfortable lifestyle. That said, our parents had similar degrees and lived in similar locations and were able to support our families on a single income with a stay at home parent. We don't have that luxury, but we're still getting by pretty well. I have the perspective though, of being plugged into so many of my peers, to see that a lot of them don't have that luxury - and it's not from a lack of work ethic or laziness.

You're missing the key point here - these kids were 18 y/o, fresh out of high school, and had their parents & every successful adult around them saying "Yeah, go to college as long as you have a degree (not just a STEM degree, mind you), then you'll be fine! You'll get a high paying job and be able to pay off that debt!". In hindsight, it's really easy to say the above, but I don't think it's really fair to point at a young kid and say they should have known better; especially given the influences surrounding them.

And I don't want to argue if your parents did or did not have anything handed to them on a silver platter. What I will argue though, is that (at that time), they were able to buy a house that was ~2-3x the median annual wage. Whereas now, a millennial in a similar situation as them are looking at a house that is ~4-5x the median annual wage. There are plenty of resources to back this difference in pricing up, but here's a pretty conservative one. I'm not going to find resources for each, but you can easily extrapolate this to everything from food to gas to schooling costs (with electronic goods being an outlier).

Look at the federal minimum wage (please don't stop reading here!) - adjusted for inflation, it would be ~$22 in today's money (here's another resource). The minimum wage argument has been beat to death, but I'll add a new angle. When the lowest rungs on the ladder are pulled down, what happens to the higher rungs? They also go down. We can definitely extrapolate this over any range of jobs from construction workers, to engineers, to school teachers, to Tundras.com shitposters like myself (mods, when do I get my raise??). If a burger flipper was getting paid $22/hour, do you think the EMT would settle for $15/hour? Hell no, they'd be expecting $25+/hour.

To summarize and be done with this thread, all this is to say that I don't think there's anything wrong with hard work or that boomers are evil. I'm just trying to help those of you older folks relate that maybe it has gotten a bit harder since the 80s to live a middle class lifestyle. Maybe that added difficulty, and lack of reward, is why these 'lazy millennials' don't give a shit about working harder. Here's another N=1, I previously worked a job where I did the no weekend/70+hr/wk grind. At the end of the year my small machine shop (which was expected to be a cost center) was >$1mil in the black. They didn't give us raises or hire any additional help. Want to guess how motivated I was after?

Hacks like Mike Rowe (who has a communications degree, talk about 'useless degree' lmao) and Dave Ramsey (who makes millions selling e-books) are both incentivized to push us to in-fight among generations. When we're too busy calling boomers dumb and millennials lazy, we miss out on who's really siphoning off all the wealth that would be keeping our shrinking middle class alive. I'll leave one last resource here to maybe get the gears turning on what causes this problem, and a hint - it's the assholes going to space while their workers apply for food stamps & piss in bottles.

 

And it turns into an argument about different generations where everyone paints with a broad brush. Most of us on this forum are somewhere in the middle class. We have more in common than we are different.

Some boomers had it easier. Some had it harder. Some millennials and GenZ are entitled and lazy. Some are not.

Wages have not kept up with inflation. Yes, we can work harder and it might help but we're still facing an uphill battle. Being selective about where you work right now doesn't mean "no one wants to work". Companies that pay the most right now aren't having as much trouble hiring.

 

This is so true. All these so called experts can only succeed by keeping us divided. We're so busy arguing amongst ourselves we completely overlook what's going on.

 

It is a crock of shit, you are right. And on that bold part, uh, the below news just came out and it's a mere raindrop in a gullywasher from the last couple years to back up the fact the workforce is totally getting the ass-end of the stick and nobody cares. And the people who aren't impacted or "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" like to call it laziness or failure to work. And the profits below? Coming on the heels of Microsoft laying off a huge swath of their workforce, saddling the remaining staff with even more work, with - obviously - zero compensation as you see. This is rampant in technology industry right now. And if not put in check, it'll perforate other industries of those who are claiming "laziness" is the problem before they know it.

Corporate greed is rampant right now. It's already driven inflation to absurd levels, driven prices on normal consumer goods through the roof, and a dollar buys you about 25¢ worth of stuff in many ways. I kinda broached that with my overly-long-winded post on the 1st page of this thread.

It has nothing to do with the party in charge. It has nothing to do with red or blue. It has nothing to do with your upbringing. Corporations are greedy, the C-level/exec suite is greedy, gouging is rampant, and there's no end in sight.

There was one thing corporations couldn't predict: A pandemic. pandemic exposed tons of lies we've been fed our whole lives about "needing to go into an office", "needing to work 40 hours a week to be profitable" and countless are things which are complete and total bullshit. The other big lie it exposed is that our first responders and our "essential workers" actually compensated or treated as though they're actually "essential". Teachers. Healthcare staff. Sanitation workers, because you know what? People these days don't have respect for their fellow human, they're entitled as shit, and honestly don't give a damn until their garbage is piling up, their spouse is having chest pains, or kids are out robbing and mobbing instead of being in school. Suddenly, now it impacts them negatively, it's a huge thing. And I think this is where the sudden moodshift I mentioned previously came about, where my buddy's brewpub staff these days either is highly respected by customers, or totally shit on by customers, but nothing in between. This pandemic made people's true colors come out.

Now a pandemic has exposed the myriad of lies we've been fed, for the world to see, the workforce is aware, pandora's box is open, business has been exposed for the greedy bastards they are, suddenly... they're not trying to hide it anymore. And the workforce knows they're full of shit, and want their share. They know business will rake in all the profit they want at any cost, even driving up costs on everything else, and the worker sees clearly what they get for being a cog in that machine right here --- because unchecked capitalism has not, does not, and will not ever work:

​

 

Just as an aside....as a Gen-X'er, I think the above is a total crock of sh*t as well (not your post - I mean not paying pay increases despite $18 billion profit). I've seen that sort of thing happen in the past and literally no one from any walk of life, of any age, thought it was OK. (Unless they're possibly a CEO. lol)

Now, will it translate to increased awareness, a change in how people vote/advocate for themelves, etc.? We shall see.

 

FTFY

But really, my bolding is a bit tongue-in-cheek. The "four times as hard" part is truth, though.

The critical oversight when making claims of "I've done it" is this: You're assuming everyone's life is aligned in the same way yours is and everyone is equipped equally. It's not. They're not.

You may have advantages based on where you live.
You may have advantages of where you went to school or your home life.
You may've had a series of lucky breaks, whether you realized them or not - that led to opportunities.
Opportunities that don't exist in other places.
Having connections other people don't and won't ever have.
Catching the right eye at the right time.
Not having certain accidents or hardship.
Not to mention having support from friends/family, or even having friends and family or similar support structure.​

I give you kudos - just like everyone else I've given kudos to in here because they've managed to rise above.

But I feel like you (not you, but folks in general) need to understand: You are the Olympic athlete in that regard. The cream of the crop. Whether you recognize it is one thing. The big difference may be, most Olympic athletes are willing to acknowledge it's not normal to be able to perform at their level, and sometimes for Olympic athletes, that level of performance comes really, really easy. Others athletes, no matter how hard they perform, will never reach that level. And that's true of 99.9% of athletes out there.

Be grateful, you're of that upper echelon! But be humble, and recognize for a second that not everyone is able. Humility is a righteous virtue to have, this point is littered throughout most scripture in all faiths for a reason.

 

As stated in previous posts, you cannot pick one generation from the past for comparison and declare that another generation (i.e. millennials) is doing better or worse unless you are being intellectually lazy. Some previous generations had it easier than today, many had it harder, and some had it MUCH harder. Think of those trying to enter the work force in 1930. Or generations before the Industrial Revolution, when VERY few people made it out of the poorhouse.

I agree to a point, but those parents mostly didn't realize the crap degrees that were being added to college that almost guarantee a fry cook job after graduation. They assumed STEM or strong business degrees when they were pushing college. Today, there are more "fields of study" at a major university that are absolutely worthless than STEM/business degrees. My own first degree was Psychology with a minor in Economics. Worthless, so I went to grad school. Two years later I had a slightly less worthless Master's degree. Four years after that I went back to school and earned my first "real" degree in electrical engineering - while working full time - over the following four years. I learned the hard way and was willing to pay the price to correct my path. Many parents understand this today, but most do not and waste their money on the crap degrees that are being sold by the universities.

Your argument is exactly why artificially placing floors or ceilings on an economic system is a bad idea, especially when being done more for political reasons than economic ones.

This is where you make the least sense. Mike Rowe sounds like he learned the hard way that a "worthless" degree is much worse that learning a trade. But then, how successful do you think he would have been at his radio, tv, and social media careers - pushing the trades and hard work - without what he learned with his degree in communications? And you only focus on Dave Ramsey's current success. You ignore (or are not aware of) the fact that Dave Ramsey has been in the poorhouse more than once, that he worked hard and smart to rebuild his net worth, and only then started sharing what he did so others could benefit from it? The fact that he is so successful is a testament to how many people he has helped to improve their financial situations. Love him or hate him, his financial wisdom is real - and he has been rewarded by helping people instead of under-paying hundreds or thousands of low level employees.

 

I HATE when people use that statement. By every possible metric, I'm doing well right now. Some of that came from hard work and a little luck here and there. We bought a house in 2015 and sold it for a decent profit. We bought a different house in 2021. Had we waited to buy a house we would be completely screwed. No amount of pulling myself up by my bootstraps would have helped with a housing and rental market that has gone completely insane and unsustainable. I recognize that people younger than me are fucked when it comes to buying a house. Even ones working hard with decent jobs are going to have a really hard time unless we have another crash. I can understand why they have a bleak outlook on this.

I also can't stand when people talk about young people who picked useless degrees. We had an entire generation that was brainwashed by teachers, guidance counselors and even parents. We were told that we HAD to get a 4 year degree and as long as we got that diploma, we would get a decent job. Those people failed those kids who are now adults.

The only reason I'm doing well is because I majored in Logistics which is a fairly recession proof industry.

 

And I just want to thumbs up and highlight this also. I tried to make this point on the 1st page and probably since, but failed to say it as well as you have.

This thread is full of a lot of healthy discussion and viewpoints, even if there's some blind regurgitation from popular talking heads. I appreciate the chatter and views, even if I don't disagree with each one, I'm learning new stuff.

I also owe Ramsey some credit: I used modified snowball to get my now-wife and myself out of debt when Reebok singlehandedly tanked her small business by working their way into being her biggest client, then walked out on the bill, knowing she wouldn't be able to afford the resources to do anything about it. Some of the tactics and logic he shares are really great ... but also not his own creations, and it's all stuff that our kids should've been taught in school for the last several decades ... yet still aren't. Financial illiteracy is a huge problem, and not just here domestically.

 

One thing not mentioned here is the graduated communist style tax system we have here in the US. The more money you make, the larger percentage is taken from you.

Where's the incentive to work hard to make more money at someone else's benefit?

Yes, the world's gone the hell. People are waking up to the myriad of lies we've been fed for about 100 years.

As an example, the federal reserve, which is neither federal, and has no reserves, was created to "sustain the value of the US dollar" and "create jobs". Since their inception, the dollar has decreased in value by 99%.

See my sig. It's all a lie.

And people are waking up.

 

Let's not pretend it wasn't also employers, placement specialist/headhunters, etc. who pushed that information. 20 years ago I was told I *HAD* to have an MCSA or a CCNA or what have you to remain relevant. That MCSA and $.50 can buy me....well, a 1/3 cup of coffee. LOL

 

There was so many good points in this thread! Seriously, you are all speaking truth. There are many facets that have changed, socially and economically over the last 40-50 years that have contributed to this.

Kids are raised different... too entitled, too protected, too much "self esteem", and not enough reality/practicality/survival. And what a load of shit the "everyone needs a college degree" propaganda has been... just made the schools rich, and saddled people with worthless degrees and debt. Then those kids immediately want to move to the trendy cool cities that everyone is talking about... where they struggle to find a MW job.
Wages are way down for "regular jobs"; this has hit men especially hard. Our unions in the US kinda sucked, but the upside was that it increased non-union wages too. Damn near any guy who wanted to work could support a family just about anywhere, with good security to boot. Security is important! The ideal family environment is where you can put down roots long term and have a supportive community. It's really tough to get that with any work now.
And why would you want to support a family these days? Odds are good that your wife will leave, with the kids and half your paycheck. That is nobody's dream. It's been very disruptive for both genders, with women needing careers to feel "fulfilled" and free. Two people pursuing careers and raising kids is more likely to be a constant frantic hell.

None of this happened by accident. We are experiencing the consequences of restructuring the economy so that the rich could squeeze out a bigger share of the pie; and it's been very successful. The details on that, and what the future holds if/when AI becomes advanced enough to make people unemployable, is something I've thought a lot about over the last decade. The future does not look bright for most people.

 

That's a lie. I guess we were hardcore communist from the early 30s to the early 80s.

 

Good point. A lot of people were involved with selling that lie and now we blame the students.

 

Exactly. I feel like (and this is solely a feeling) that while many are affected by a lot of stuff like this (corrupt politics; popular concepts sold; social security shenanigans; student debt; and so on), Gen Z is (and is going to be) affected the worst.

I realize discussions like this are always kinda touchy to some, just like discussions about 'privilege' are as well. When you tell someone who had his @$$ beat almost every day growing up for 7 years, busted his @$$ in the military, lost several jobs, and so on and so forth....that he got where he is due to 'privilege', he's gonna react. LOL Same thing goes with boomers and 'having it easier.' It's true in many ways, and saying that is NOT saying "Eh, they had everything handed to them on a platter" - but perception often differs.

 

We all just get the environment that we get. I no longer believe that democracy and the "will of the people" have any power. People are too easily manipulated... confused, misinformed, angry, divided... "divide and conquer" works very well. Keep us blaming each other, ignore the real problem and the source of it. Boomers aren't responsible and GenZ won't be either when things get even worse.

 

Excellent point; agreed 100%.

 

I should have better clarified. My point is that both of these clowns got incredibly lucky, bottled lightning, and will be rich for the rest of their lives. Not due to 'working harder' (though I'm sure they both did work hard), but due to sheer dumb luck that they were at the right place at the right time.

Rowe is a hypocrite, at best, when he talks down to those with a degree, and Ramsey just got lucky that his repackaged advice made him a lot of money. Because of that, I don't think either of their views on this topic are worth the hot air that is blown.

 

Look up federal income tax rates.


If that isn't graduated, I don't know what is?

Look at rule #2 from the communist manifesto:



A dirty little secret of communists: they don't preach communism. They preach socialism.