Engine Failure

Just wanted to provide a sort of update, as I don’t have anything definitive yet. So the dealership the truck was towed to is claiming that when my normal dealership did the oil change at 30K, they overfilled it by 2.5 qt of oil. When that happens the oil will become aerated, the pump can’t suck it up, thus leading to the oil pressure warning and engine failure. They’ve been doing a full engine diagnostic and I should have the report on Monday, sometime during the late afternoon.

I of course contacted my normal dealer (who we’ve purchased well over 10 vehicles from, and have never had an issue), and they are suspicious of the diagnosis based on two reasons; first, the truck went over 5K miles without an issue with an alleged overfill of 2.5 qt (which is a significant amount), and second, when they did the 35K service a little early for me, even though they don’t do an oil change, they state that they still check all the fluid levels, including oil, and then adjust as necessary, and said they would have caught it then.

Based on what the non-local dealership states, it sounds like I may be having my local dealer transport the Tundra back to them to do a second overview of what failed and how we move forward. I’ll keep you posted!

 

Thanks for the update OP. Good luck, sorry this happened to you.

 

Yep.

At this point I am operating on the premises that:

1.) The new Tundra is probably not significantly more reliable than other 1/2 tons.

2.) The new Tundra is effectively priced higher than any other 1/2 ton due to ridiculous dealer markups, and otherwise holding MSRP. This places the Tundra dangerously close to reasonably well equipped 3/4 ton truck pricing.

Bearing those points in mind even though I don’t need a 3/4 ton, I might end up buying one to avoid variable displacement. If I’m inclined to buy a turbocharged truck, I might as well buy a diesel.

 

That right there is what drives me nuts about the current pricing scheme. When I bought my ‘13, it wa a no problem to get a base model with the big motor, tow package, and 4wd. Compared to the bowtie, they would only give me the big motor and tow package with the LTZ2 trim for an additional 20k. And to make things worse with the current SR, they de-tune the motor to make less power than the “base” 3.5TT in every other trim. From what I’m told, there’s zero mechanics difference between them, just a VIN locked ECU program.

 

I'm speculating here, but I can see a scenario where the overfill issue was manifested by your long road trip.

I don't know your normal driving habits, but if it consists of a bunch of short trips (say less than 30 miles at a time) then that might not give the oil enough time to fully aerate and cause issues with the pump. That would explain why it took so long for the issue to cause a failure. Let's just say it takes 5-10 miles (depending on engine RPMs) for an overfilled oil pan to reach "max saturation of aeration" and that is the point when your oil pump begins to struggle. There would be residual oil in the block, pistons, moving parts etc for a while. It might be that only after high rpm sustained driving (like a road trip) that the residual oil finally burns & fails causing a lack of lubrication since the pump can't move aerated oil. Or, that it can move some oil and that aearted oil can only be pumped at 20% of normal capacity or something. Again, I'm no engineer so I'm just speculating, but it seems plausible to me.

It's also understandable that your local dealership is in defense mode. Mine would be too. However, don't let a long-term relationship with your dealership cause any type of bias. Your regular maintenance is performed by a tire/lube tech, which is an entry level position. It is also the highest turnover position in any dealership's service department. I'm not blaming your dealer, of course, but just because you've purchased 10 vehicles without issue before doesn't mean that your truck wasn't some high school kid's first lube job right out of training. I worked in a service department for 3 years during college. I even thought about sticking with it and getting my ASE certification, but I chose college instead. I've seen some nightmare issues caused by rookie and inattentive lube techs before. [shudders]

In the end, it's a "good" diagnosis because it absolves you of any impact on the issue and places 100% accountability on the dealership. There's no question is was someone else's fault. At the very least, Toyota should cover a new long block and a loaner for a month or two while they do an engine rebuild.

 

Fords 10yr of development means little. I have owned a 13,15,17 and currently a 21 f150 all with the 3.5. 13 and 15 were leases and 17 was a purchase. I ordered the 17 exactly what I wanted, lariat with almost all boxes checked. I bought as I intended to drive the wheels off, figuring 10yrs of ownership. The Ford dreaded cam phaser issues popped up (problem going back to 2004).
I initially took the truck in, confirmed cam phasers were bad but was told keep driving as parts not available. I drove for over 3months, with the rattling getting worse each day. I tow pretty much everyday for work, a 6x10 cargo.
I finally got tired of "it sounds like an old diesel", which it did, and I traded back in on the 21. 21 is lease again.
3 months later I see my old 17 sitting at the dealer still. Ask sales why. Needs a new engine. $12k here in Canada.
All this said when ever asked I always say DO NOT buy this engine for long term durability. I think the same may be true for the Tundra. Either way I did look for a Tundra prior to the 21f150 but there was zero available.
I still have yet to see one on the lot to test drive. Next truck maybe a Tundra, honestly could care less what the brand is, just has to fit my needs.

 

This is what my tire pressures were after getting a rotation at the dealer and a report showing tire pressures were checked and all showed 35 lbs. Just saying....

 

I guess we should really check if the filter was changed to new one, and check oil fill level after dealer oil change... At the very minimum

 

I always check the oil colour and level as well as all other fluid levels and that caps are tight and things like that before starting any of my vehicles after getting them serviced.

 

Can you tell me how to open the hood?

 

Step one, grab a can opener...

 

Nah, step 1 is get a beer.

 

I do all my own oil changes. I mortified of the stealer….
I’ve had my vehicles serviced at Ford, Dodge & BMW. BMW has been the better experience. But even they broke the side plastics for my seats. the service manager tried to blame the vintage of my bimmer, stating it was old plastics. Till I showed him an invoice that I had bought those brand new a few months ago, I replaced em myself which involved removing those heavy ass seats from the vehicle.
Sorry for the rant….

 

At one point in time beer required a can opener.

 

I may or may not have opened some that way

 

I’ve never opened one that way. I have had the pull tab break off without opening the beer. In a fit of drunken stupidity I grabbed a screwdriver thinking (barely) that I could knock tab in like knocking a hole out in a power panel. I did get the beer opened, but most of it wound up all over the kitchen. My wife was not pleased.

 

I had left my doors open and radio on for ~3 hours while I tinted the windows in my garage. The battery was still showing enough voltage to run those accessories, but not enough to start the engine. It was an edge case that never appeared in testing, but we're working on a couple of fixes for it. Unfortunately voltage detection at different points in the circuits sometimes shows different values, so its not a trivial fix that we can push in a day, there's more testing required.

As for a mechanical sensor for oil level, they're not reliable. Oil is sloshing through the engine and pan and its fairly turbulent in there while the engine is running, so getting a useful oil level read is difficult. Most electronic oil level sensors only check the oil level when the vehicle has been sitting for at least 30 minutes (like on my Porsche Cayman), but they're easily skewed if the vehicle isn't on level ground. The sensor in my Cayman will tell me I have low oil if I have one side of the car jacked up and its tilted far enough.

 

It’s tough to beat an oil pressure gauge, and program a warning light and self protective shutdown feature in the ECU. Oil level in a running engine as mentioned is tougher to measure. Plus oil level doesn’t mean shit if the oil is frothed up, or otherwise incapable of producing adequate oil pressure to lubricate the engine. An oil pressure sensor can better protect against catastrophic damage from a defective oil pump, plugged pickup screen etc.

 

Yeah, Thevenin is a bastard!

 

I understand what you are saying about the Oil level gauge on your Cayman and being on level ground. I have a 993. It needs to be on fairly level ground but it works and gives an instant visual view of Oil level - like at a stop light. But Oil is very important on a 993. It even has two oil tanks and the pump takes from the remote tank where the oil is more calm and stable.

So based on one of the assumptions in this thread that suggests there was too much oil that caused this engine failure.
Am I correct to assume the new Tundra doesn't have a sensor with a balance measure (something to tell its on level ground), that can be triggered when the vehicle is parked and "all" the oil has settled into the sump - an alarm to inform the driver if the oil level is way too high... or is the concern with low Oil level only?

 

you're correct that splitting the tanks and adding a dry/remote sump will make for an easier oil level measurement, but that adds cost/complexity that we don't need in a Tundra. On the 993, they added that for packaging reasons (low engine + large primary oil pan = oil pan too close to ground)

I'm not familiar with ALL of the sensors in the Tundra, but i don't think there is an electronic oil level sensor. The "balance measure" you mention is can be derived with a couple of gyroscopes and accelerometers.

 

A question I have regarding this for all of you - especially the gentleman who works for Toyota - in the end, whether the remote dealer is correct or not, as far as the repair of the vehicle, and for Toyota corporate, doesn't the resources needed all come from the same place ultimately? So whether the remote dealer replaces the engine, or the local dealer does, in the end the OP gets the repair and Toyota's resources make it happen

 

Yes the parts will come from the same place, but no, its not all the same. Diagnosing and repairing/replacing an engine takes quite a bit of man hours. If the failure was due to a manufacturing defect, Toyota HQ would pay for the parts and repairs. If its determined that the failure was caused by a dealer, Toyota HQ only pays for a part of the repair, with the at-fault dealership paying the rest. If the failure was determined to be caused by the user, Toyota generally discounts parts and labor for the repair, but that payment is still expected to come from the user.

Investigations in cases like this tend to take weeks, if not months, all because they need to determine where the payment for the services and parts will come from, but it means a longer process before the user is back in their vehicle.

 

Yep. I provide a gallon ziploc bag with instructions to return the old filter back to me for my inspection and before driving away check the oil level, tire pressures and look for any obvious oil leaks. Being old school I still check my oil level at most fillups. With the 38 gallon tank I need something to do while filling the gas tank.

 

Yep. Can’t trust ‘em. Might as well join the DIY crowd at that point.

 

You also mentioned that you checked the fluids and all seemed ok. Did the truck puke anything on the roadway?

When "they" checked the motor, if it was 2.5 quarts over where it should be???? Well then you have a different problem.
Engines can make oil by unburned gas getting past the rings and into the crank case. This is called blowby. This could "make" oil in time.
In reality it just adds volume and thins it out the actual oil. Not good anywhich way.
You had 4k on the clock when this happened? If the rings are that bad then there could be your problem.

Turbo'd engines can have more blowby because they are pressurizing the incoming air thus increasing combustion chamber pressure.
(blowby is fairly common as engine rings aren't 100% effective... too much is NOT a good thing)
Excessive crankcase pressure.... That can cause oil leaks on the weakest points of the motor.
PCV valve is supposed to help with that but may not be enough.

 

Blowby is a combination of unburned fuel and oil, but its still 90% oil. If an engine has that much blowby in 5000 miles, it would display tons of other symptoms that would be hard to ignore. Most cars leak less than an ounce of oil every 10k miles into the crankcase vent. 2.5qts is significant enough that the engine would be struggling to stay running. It would basically equate to a destroyed valve or hole in the cylinder. Turbo engines make slightly more blowby, but not a significant amount more.

In the photo that OP posted, there were drops of oil under the truck, so i'm guessing there was an oil leak somewhere. Unfortunately, the ticket has gone to another team and I can no longer see it. Hoping OP gets it resolved quickly.

 

I really hope OP gets this issue resolved soon rather than later.

Thus my distrust for the stealer to service my vehicles. I’ve seen horror stories of oil filters blowing off on a GT500, due to service techs not tightening filter’s correctly.

I even go thru the painstaking task of pre filling my oil filter so it’s not completely bone dry on initial start up.
Measured precisely 7.7 quarts…. Why couldn’t they make it an even 8 or 7.5 quarts?!

let’s face it, it’s usually the Junior tech that does the simply ass oil changes, while simple the most critical!

 

You can spend less that 65K on that 3/4 ton or 1 ton if you don't require foot warmer and butt massagers...

 

That's basically what the internet guy I buy my Toyotas from said when I called inquiring about pricing on one a few months back, he said if I don't "have" to have one right now, he would advise me against buying it.

I guess he wants to keep my business for the rest of the families Toyotas, smart guy, since you can bet if I bought a Tundra and had the engine or turbo go out, that would be the last time I bought a vehicle from him.