Suspension geometry - why is it sagging so low and creating negative camber?

Okay Just trying to understand what’s causing the front end to sag with the new Bilstein 4600s. The old stock Tokico shocks couldn’t allow me to get to zero camber. Something like -0.5 on both sides. The way my new tires have worn, it looks to be even worse. I’m suspecting springs but I wanted to hear other’s opinions before I waste my money on another alignment that probably won’t meet spec. The LCAs are so low it looks like they’ll hit the bump stops.

 

I would just 'suspect' springs.......its your springs.

 

@Darkness ?

The only thing that really determines height with OEM arms and nothing else weird is springs. Spring height, spring rate, and where the springs sit on the shock. I don't know anything about 4600s. If that's about where stock sits, I'm also no help as to why alignment is such a problem. Sorry.

 

I just found some tears in the LCA bushings. Do you think that could be a factor or is it still primarily the springs you think?

 

IMO that would not kill ride height but could kill alignment. I hear @Darkness typing...

 

Judging from the angles of your arms I think the springs are not sagging, or at least not badly. Does it look lower than normal from tire to fender?

I think its probably a matter of getting a proper alignment. So many places do the toe and send you home, not all know how to handle camber.

And yes, if your lca bushings are in bad shape that will mess with alignment.


Edit-

You have damn good ears!

 

Strange. I never thought springs could go bad.

 

Is it possible they are the wrong ones? Did you lose height after running them a while?

 

Over time they can get fatigued and start to collapse. I would suspect more the lca bushings have made alignment difficult. I notice one cam is nearly centered and the other looks maxed out to the side.

 

Fender to tire is 5.5" in front and 7.5" in back.

Original springs. Yes, after time they sagged a bit but I thought it was the shock doing it.

Sounds like a possible contribution of both. Damn that's another $600 ($400 springs + $200 LCAs) to not have the tires wear incorrectly on a truck I eventually want to get rid of if I can't fix the frame.

What about new LCAs and a spacer to bring the truck back to zero camber?

 

I'm not a fan of spacers, but in this case that may be a good low cost solution for a bit of height added. 1/4" spacers for about 1/2" at the hub. I think the LCA bushings are needed. The moogs arms I put on a little while back worked great until I changed them out. Those are on Amazon around $100/side.

 

I'm glad I take and save pics. Here's the last time I had the alignment and could only get to -0.4 and -0.5 on each side. Looks like the droop is similar.

 

I actually meant coil spacers. Sorry. Maybe an inch?

 

I don't really think its the springs unless your leaf springs are sagging too. Factory rake on these is about 2" lower in the front than the rear, sounds like your stance is dead on by comparison.

I think lower arms is all you need. Bushings really, but its a pita to replace those.

 

1. What are your current alignment specs.

2. How many miles on the springs.

3. Verify you have the right 4600’s

4. Your Cam Adjusters may be frozen and unable to be properly adjusted.

5. Your previous alignment specs seem pretty good, are you rotating every 5k miles?

 

See answers above.

 

Those front alignment cams are almost in identical positions on both alignments. Especially if you can see the wear on the bushings, seems like #1

 

This will cause all kinds of alignment issues. Springs rarely go bad unless they were leaf springs and overloaded on the regular. I have never had a bad coil spring and I have owned MANY 300k+ mile Toyotas.

Get new lower control arms from Toyota, yours look like htey have seem a bit of salt. They aren't as expensive as you'd think compared to aftermarket and are vastly superior, and come loaded with ball joints and bushings.

 

I know that’s because it the last time it was aligned. Somehow these new Bilsteins are introducing even more negative camber. I noticed it since the tire wear on the same tires was only slightly negative in camber with the old shocks. I guess I’ll know for certain once I bring it in for alignment.

 

I know we have talked about it previously but why does your 02 not fall under frame recall? From some of the pics you post it seems like it's at least close to being bad enough.

 

I have 335k on my Tacoma and front and rear springs are completely clapped out.

But OP’s truck doesn’t look too much lower than any other stock truck.

Exterior side pic of truck might help.

 

Negative camber causes wear over thousands of miles. Toe causes tire wear in hundreds of miles.

How long/how many miles has it been?

Ideally I'd want a bit more toe in with the .5 camber you have.


Got a pic of the rear lca adjusters?

 

That's not the worst of it. haha The exterior is coated in POR-15 and the Noxodul 300 stuff from Toyota. The POR-15 is beginning to flake off in some areas, so it needs a touch up.

Now if I can prove Toyota never applied the Noxodul 700 waxy coating to the interior of the frame, I might have a case. I see zero evidence that it was ever applied.

Only 2-3K miles so far and it's in the red for the depth clearance being greater than the min required to pass on the inside edge.

Will post a pic of the rear LCA adjusters later today and maybe a pic of the bushing tears on the rear portion of both arms.

 

@Darkness Looks like I was off in the height measurement. There’s about 2 3/4” difference front to back.

@assassin10000 here are the right rear cam setting and left rear cam setting:

 

Looks like they did the best they could with what you have.

Almost 3" difference in rake is more than the norm. I would look at swapping some different springs (even used ones from another member) to see if thats all it needs.


Don't DC springs give a bit of lift on the AC? I can't 100% remember but I thought it was an inch or so.

 

Yes, the DC 4x4 are the ones to look for. They should lift him about .75 or so(over stock, he seems to be lower than stock). They will lift a 2wd access cab about an inch.

 

What about putting on 1" coil spacers to keep the cost down? Replacement springs and LCAs? This is not looking good for me.

Or better yet, a rubber coil spacer...

https://www.4wheelparts.com/p/mr-gasket-company-1-inch-coil-spring-booster-1285/_/R-BCZG-1285

Maybe I could just undo the top nut on both coils a little since I have an extra 1/2" of thread to bring the nut up?

 

Spacers, will work for lifting the truck up, but if your springs are toast, it won't actually give you back your handling or travel. My truck came to me with I think 1" spacers, which I removed so I could actually do truck stuff with it. I think I may still have them laying around somewhere but getting rid of them and then getting an alignment was one of the best things I ever did for my truck.

 

I’m just trying to find a cheap way to bring back camber adjustment to something more positive if new LCAs don’t do the job with the torn bushings.

I’ll worry about new springs later if I can get the frame fixed.

 

Next purchase will be new. Just trying to hold out another year or so…

Unless…I take a welding class to fix it.