Does anybody exceed payload when towing?

Your math is wrong. The only thing you
subtract from payload is the tongue weight, not the whole trailer weight.

 

100k miles in 4 years. I highly doubt that truck didn't see a lot of highway miles. My wife's family are ranchers in the midwest. They're constantly hauling livestock to and from sales, to different pastures, to the processing facility, ect. on the highway with their ranch trucks.

 

There are some idiots on YouTube who hook up 5th wheel trailers to their Tundras. The truck can do it (making the trailer move) but it isn't safe nor legal.

 

As long as the load isn't enough to require a CDL, I'm not sure it's actually illegal. The Tundra hotshotters I've seen are towing at the top of the Tundra's ratings, which means the tongue weight puts them over GVWR, but those loads are well under most states' CDL requirements.

I see a whole system of regulations for commercial trucks and heavy loads that require a CDL, but are there actually state laws that require personal vehicles to remain within the manufacturer's door jamb numbers? I mean, if there are, then I'm breaking the law with a pathetically small amount of gear in the bed and my low-BMI family in the cab when our gas tank is full. And bolt-on overlanding aftermarket outfitters would be breaking the law installing bumpers/winch/armor/rack/tent/etc on midsize and half-ton trucks. Bound For Nowhere would be breaking the law every time their 9,000lb Tundra entered a public roadway. I'm just not sure it's actually illegal. Not saying it's smart. I'm only 200lb over when we go camping, so I've just decided not to worry about it. Guess I would have to reconsider my situation if I were actually breaking the law.

 

This is the specific video I am referring too.
https://youtu.be/3laoAJ3RyHk

As you can clearly see he is above weight and the idea that just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

Oh yeah, I've seen that guy's stuff. In the comments, he says that model is 7900lb dry, 9300lb tanks full. If that's true and that thing is balanced with a 10% pin weight, he very well may be within his door jamb numbers. In all likelihood, he's probably got 1300lb of payload on his door jamb, so I would bet he's a few hundred pounds over GVWR with occupants in the truck. 2nd Gen Crewmax trucks are rated to pull 9800lb. So he's within towing ratings and probably a few hundred over payload. Again, I'm 200lb over on camping trips when my gas tank is full. Point me to the law that I'm breaking.

I'm not arguing that it's smart. I'm arguing the idea that it's actually illegal.

 

If you are going to consistently go over your payload capabilities any responsible owner would modify his truck to account for the additional weight. Heavier leafs or air bags in the back and bigger brakes all around. If people are doing this there are no issues but if you're not you're a danger on the road. The lack of these modifications may not get noticed by DOT but I am certain that the insurance companies would use this information against you if you were in an accident.

 

Yeah, he did modify his suspension in order to handle the load. That was the big controversy: beefing up components on your truck doesn't change the door jamb numbers.

To deny coverage, the insurance company would have to prove that he is overweight. To do that, they would need to get the wrecked truck and trailer (which, again, weighs less wet than the Tundra's max towing rating, and at 10% pin weight can be within what his truck is rated for if it's just him in the cab–this alone kills their case), drag them to the CAT scales, fill the tanks if even possible, fill his fuel tank with gas, and put him and his family back in the truck while on the scales in order to see that he was a few hundred pounds over payload while towing so they can deny a claim. Seems to me that is what would need to happen to prove he was overloaded. I just don't see that happening.

Pull the load or don't pull the load. What he did wasn't illegal. Pushing it? Sure. Illegal? No. In danger of insurance denial? Given what they would have to do to prove it, I don't think so at all.

 

So the only way to get yourself in trouble with this is to be grossly overloaded? Makes sense that they have to draw the line somewhere.

We all know our trucks can handle more payload than the door jamb sticker. 1380lbs here.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a Toyota commercial the other day that had a few different Toyota vehicles on it showing their abilities. The Tundra had a 5th wheel hooked up to it. Obviously a '22 Tundra

 

Lol... My son does CSAR and flies around in PaveHawk helicopters all day and when they go TDY he usually likes to take one of his mountain bikes along.

Their motto: If it fits, it ships.

 

What's the pin weight of a little one like that?

 

You are missing one thing, what's the CGVWR?

Just because he is within the Tundras GVWR, doesnt mean at 9300lbs loaded he is within the rated combined weight.

 

It also doesn’t mean he is breaking any law. Is GCWR on your door jamb? It’s not on mine. And again, what law is he breaking being slightly over? He’s not a commercial vehicle. He’s not pulling a load that is big enough to require a CDL in any state I’m aware of. It’s a small 5th wheel that weighs less than the Tundra’s max tow rating, but probably puts him a bit over GVWR.

Point me to the law that he’s breaking, and show me that exact situation where someone else got denied insurance or criminally charged because wreckage was dragged to the scales to determine that the door jamb numbers (which are payload, GVWR, and axle ratings) are a legal standard that must be adhered to at all times and a couple of them were exceeded.

 

So, let me get this straight. Insurance companies may deny a claim if my Tundra is overweight but will pay out if I'm speeding, fail to yield right of way, fail to stop in assured clear distance, drive recklessly or even if I'm pissed eyed and whopper jawed drunk and cause an accident?

 

I'm pretty sure that if you can show that your truck came from the factory with an ATF cooler then you can tow any weight and configuration you desire, no questions asked.

 

I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but it seems pretty hypocritical to do 5-15 mph over the speed limit during one's daily commute and then to get on a truck forum and regurgitate the same tired internet lore of being denied insurance or given hefty fines for having an accident while towing within the Tundra's trailering limits and being a few hundred pounds over GVWR.

Unlike the numbers on a non-commercial half-ton's door jamb, the posted speed limit IS a legal standard.

 

I believe you are correct, that the numbers themselves aren't necessarily "lawbound" (could be used if something occurs). Rather, an ambiguous number that Toyota likes the lags behind in the competition. Why should mfgs complete years of durability testing, chassis analysis and spend all that money to publish any sort of ratings if the end user is going to disregard it?

Does it have some of the least payload in half-ton trucks, I believe so.
Does it have some of the lower tow ratings within its class, again I do believe so.
Is the 07-21 Tundra overbuilt, pretty sure...
Then why would Toyota "restrict" its capabilities?

Why even bother publishing numbers if they ultimately don't matter?

I got some time over the next few days, I'll see what I can find in regards to possible insurance issues on excessive weights as well as if there are any examples in regards to weights and LEO.

 

I don't see exceeding GVWR by a couple hundred pounds and towing within max trailering limits as blatant, dangerous disregard for your truck's safety limits.
Toyota turned the overuse of the million mile trucks into a marketing campaign. They did the same with the truck given to the ranch to use and abuse for 100k miles. They all but say these trucks can handle beyond their stated limits. It's a legal CYA for them. Always has been. This is the the other side of the long-term reliability coin--think of it as being similar to detuning the drivetrain for longevity. Sweers even says outright that they don't play the numbers game the other automakers play. Other half-tons will reduce their curb weight to dangerous levels and claim higher trailering numbers, creating what turns out to be a wagging-the-dog situation. The Tundra doesn't do that. Even the door jamb numbers are underrated on several trucks. A couple 3rd gen owners found out that they have around 300lb more payload capacity (that is, a greater difference between curb weight and GVWR) than is stated on their door jambs.

I'm not advocating for exceeding trailering limits, just saying that using the Tundra the way the guy on YouTube did is not actually illegal. There is a whole world of regulation for commercial towing. There is nothing for dads and grandpas pulling campers in their half tons. Think of how litigious our society is. The people who sold that camper that pushes the limits of the truck's door jamb numbers would be liable as well. The overlanding outfitters who build clients' trucks for them, bolting 1500 lb worth of armor/bumpers/racks/tents/etc onto a truck with 1300 lb of payload would be liable. You could be well within your numbers and still have a negligent accident. Being a few hundred pounds over the door jamb isn't going to add any liability or reduce any coverage for you in the event of an accident. If you find something substantial to the contrary, I'm going to sell my damn truck, because I'm 200 lb over for most of my fuel tank's range while loaded up for tent camping with my family.

Looking at your truck, I'll bet you're over GVWR when loaded up as well.

 

Always go by the sticker, never by a brochure.

 

Since you specifically asked me...

My wet weight was usually 6300 to 6500 (call it 6500 for this discussion) off a certified scale. Lift/wheels/tires/rack/spare/all people/sliders/fridge/full tank/blah blah. I believe my specific GVWR was 7000lb, my boats tongue weight was never over 500lbs (I use a weighsafe hitch). So call it right at the GVWR full loaded up. Call me paranoid, but I ensured I never exceeded that (for numerous reasons, I guess mostly personal).

*Not sure if the scale pictured is certified or not, but used it as quick reference when going to the dump.*

 

My CAT scale ticket was 7400lb (my door jamb's GVWR is 7200). And below is my first post on this thread showing what my truck looks like overweight. This is with 285/75s, a retractable tonneau, meager camping gear including a ground tent, dometic fridge and second battery, and RCI engine skid. That and my skinny family put us 200 lb over. That's with everything and everyone in the truck. I filled the gas tank and pulled onto the scales.

 

@Terndrerrr

Ok so did some digging. As we would expected, for something not necessarily "lawbound" the responses and info is a little scattered BUT there seems to be one common denominator - accidents. It seems, for passenger and not commercial, the only way to really ever be questioned or have ramifications is if you were in an accident, circumstantial.

It seems to becomes "unlawful" due to negligence if there is a secondary result due to it.

https://www.thehulltruth.com/trucks-trailers/381499-cited-towing-too-much.html

https://fourwheeltrends.com/is-it-illegal-to-exceed-towing-capacity/

https://www.salvilegal.com/personal...es-can-lead-to-serious-accidents-and-injuries

https://wolflawnj.com/2013/04/towing-liability-for-overweight-loads/

 

My original comment, and I see where you are coming from, still goes to the actual OPs question.

Exceeding payload when towing

My original comment was just that, while payload and GVWR is one thing, combined gross is something else that no one seems to ever question. With bad drivers everywhere, being in an accident and being over CGVWR is something that needs to be in the back of ones mind - IMHO. It's easier to look and question a Tundra 5th towing and weights vs yours or mine truck at everyday weight face value

 

I don't necessarily think this specific scenario is unsafe but I'll share the general comment that just because something isn't illegal doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.

 

Your wet weight of 6500 lbs includes you, all passengers and all baggage and gear and whatnot?

 

At that time there was only 1 kid, without luggage, but the fridge had a few gallons of water, snacks, etc. And I was not in tow nor needed to tow under those circumstances.

Obviously, luggage and tongue weight would cap or put me over. Lakes are plentiful nearby so never had to tow with luggage. Any lake day weight went in the boat. Wouldnt need the fridge. Luckily I had a lot of give and take available to me at the time.

Since then, I have sold the truck due to wanting/needing more in the weight category. Build changed a few times, family situation changed a couple times as well over the past years.

 

Thoughts on the first link (the forum thread):
• One guy mentions people being stopped and weighed with portable scales. I've never seen this in my life. Not saying it doesn't happen. Would it happen to a guy in a half-ton truck with no trailer? Would someone with a trailer that is within the truck's stated limit's, under the rear axle's limit, but a few hundred over payload get ticketed? GCWR is in the manual, topped at 16k lb. So someone could be within trailering and axle limits, and still be a bit over payload and GCWR. Are you going to get denied coverage or a hefty fine for this?
• One guy repeatedly states that private, recreational vehicles do not have to stop at weigh stations. This is my understanding.
• The guys towing race cars aren't commercially licensed, but they get targeted for weighing because they are assumed to be doing it for the winnings. Therefore, they are treated as if they are commercially licensed.
Second link:
• They mention exceeding manufacturer's stated trailering capacity, which yes can be illegal. But exceeding payload by a few hundred pounds while towing at/under the max limit and still being under rear axle rating in a recreational vehicle does not fit this situation IMO. Would they cite you for being over the door jamb GVWR? Do they have manuals on hand to look up every non-commercial vehicle's GCWR?
Third link (nothing really stood out to me here as new or enlightening info).
Fourth link:
• They state, "If the weight of the trailer is greater than that of the towing vehicle, there is a great likelihood of a loss of control, especially when traveling downhill." This, while not stating a law that is being broken doing so, reminds me of the aluminum F150 with a curb weight of 4800lb being rated to tow 12k lbs. There's no way I would do that in that truck, ever. Even when Ford says it's ok.
• "Towing beyond any vehicle’s manufacturer’s weight ratings-or without regard to the properly equipped limitations a vehicle’s manufacturer places on the towing vehicle relates directly to the law of negligence and places may [sic] expose you to liability." That's the closest we've come to finding out if my situation or the situation that is so easy to fall into with the Tundra (towing under max trailering limit and under axle limits, but a bit over on GVWR and/or GCWR) is actually illegal.

Here, a guy argues that towing with a half ton can be a better choice than a taller, heavier HD truck, especially if the HD truck has a live axle and a much higher center of gravity. He does not appear concerned with being exactly under payload ratings necessarily. RV Life article

Sure. I get that. I think speeding is pretty unsafe, but everyone does it. Sometimes accidents are caused, and drivers are determined to be negligent due to excessive speed. I'm still not quite convinced that I need to sell my truck for operating on a public roadway while a bit over GVWR and under axle ratings, which is the same scenario everyone towing at say 80% of Tundra's trailering limit is in.

I really don't want to sell my truck. Maybe that is making me view this irrationally. I need to think on it more. I'm not comfortable adding any weight with where we're at, that's for sure. Could transfer the second battery/fridge/camping gear to a small converted military trailer to relieve some of the payload. Seems ridiculous given what I'm carrying. What did you end up in?