2020 Differential needle bearing failure

I have 100k on a ECGS bushing in my Fj. No issues so far. I will go that route with my tundra too when it starts to bother me.

 

Anyone have the recent tsb # for the diff noise/replacement?

 

Is this noise audible only when going straight or taking curves at 25/35mph? I get a sound and vibration but I feel its my tires (It's definitely rotational) because it only does it when driving S type curves.

Thoughts?

 

The sound can occur in both straight and turns at varying speeds. A tell tale indicator is if the sound instantly goes away when switching into 4x4 Hi,

 

Thx - I will try this.

 

It is important to realize that there is only movement of the CV axle stub against the bushing during turns (pretty slow motion between the two) and during wheel spin when in 4wd, which is a recipe for disaster anyway.

Travelling down the highway in a straight line, the differential carrier that the OE needle bearing or the ECGS bushing are installed in, and both CV axles turn at the same speed, with no relative motion.

This is a big problem for needle bearings, as vibration and load with the needles against exact same ares of surfaces of the inner race (CV axle stub in this case) and the outer race of the needle bearing will brinell the races much faster than if there is relative rotational motion. A bushing does not have this issue, as there is contact across the entire surface (with a lubrication film in between, of course)

 

I understand what you are trying to say, but your understanding is incorrect.
The Tacoma bushing is not installed in the diff carrier, it is installed in the diff housing. Once installed, the bushing does not rotate.
The inner CV shaft spins inside the bushing whenever the truck is moving. ( the design is similar on the Tundra)
The bushing helps support the outer side of the inner CV shaft, however, the inner end of the CV shaft is still loose inside the OEM diff carrier.

 

That IS the diff carrier you’re looking at in your pic, with the tapered roller bearing around. “41331G” is the needle bearing.

 

Another pic that removes all doubt.

 

The AC noise you are hearing is extremely common, like virtually EVERY newer truck, it is commonly referred to as the AC clunk.

 

Yep confirmed. This is one of those places where a bearing works for the type of motion but a bushing is actually more suitable given the low relative motion. As mentioned earlier in this thread, there's slop in the inner CV joint with either bearing or bushing as well.

 

There is a different bearing that is solid with no needle bearings, a nice upgrade

 

@landphil My, mis-understanding. Thank you for correcting me, and sharing the schematic to help me better understand.

 

To those that had the front diff replaced because on the 2020-2021 trucks because of the noise. What was the TSB number?

 

The bearing or replacement bushing does see constant rotation in 2WD because of the passenger side axle disconnect. It lets the right side spider gear spin in reverse direction because it's less drag than running the whole assembly at full speed. The 'convenient' replacement for locking hubs.

The pinion/driveshaft may not stay stationary but anything slower than wheel speed will spin the axle in the bearing. That's why it grumbles in 2WD with the sloppy bearing; the carrier isn't really moving, the spider gear is spinning pretty fast in the carrier with less than perfect alignment with its mating gears, and we get noise.

Toyota used bushings in the '80s, they wore poorly, and so they switched to needle bearings. Considering the lack of complaints with the ECGS bushing it must be way better than the old ones. I know my truck could use it. Every day going into town, Tundra go brrrr

 

Good point, I’m really not sure how that fact slipped my mind, but I totally wasn’t thinking about the ADD and it’s effect on things.

 

I received word this Tuesday that the new differential had arrived at the dealer (exactly 1 week since diagnosis; a week sooner than promised) and booked an appointment for installation this coming Monday Jan. 11th. I don't have one more recent than the one I wrote about in post #1 above. I'll see if I can learn the newer TSB# and post it here if successful.

 

I would appreciate that. My truck started to make the noise this summer. I decided I would wait until the noise is loud enough that diagnosing would be easier. I contacted the dealer yesterday and the service manager told be I would have to pay to diag the problem before they would proceed with the warranty. I told him I would be calling Toyota corporate. The kicker is that I use to work there as a tech.

 

Good to know that professional courtesy is not dead .... Will post the new TSB if I get it next week.

 

Well my experience with my dealer didn't go so well. I was told that they would charge me diag fees and would not commit to how much that could cost. They told me if I didn't like it call Toyota customer service which I did. The Toyota customer service guy asked me why I didn't want to bring the truck in and I told them I didn't trust the service manager and wouldn't open my wallet at his discretion. He press on and ask why I didn't trust him so a mentioned I use to work at the dealership as a tech and seen some of his practices of "ripping of customers". That comment was then repeated to the dealer principle at the dealership. I get a text message for the dealer principle telling me he didn't appreciate the ripping off customer comment which the Toyota customer rep repeated to him. Was told to take the truck somewhere else so I've been band from the dealership. I now have to travel two hours away to another dealership to get the warranty covered. At least they told me not to worry about the diag cost because it would be minimal and they could work it into the warranty.

 

That's extremely disappointing from both the corporate contact and the dealership.
Ultimately if the product is faulty or has known issues, it should be covered.
I have had similar interactions disputes at dealerships regarding money grab tactics.
Some of my friends with high oil consumption engines got full rebuilds and others got completely shafted, with the only difference being what dealership they reported and provided documentation.
Sometimes it's hard to be a brand advocate when regular customers get treatment like that everyday and therfore associate the service managers actions with the brand

 

Ouch... that sucks... here's to hoping they can get you done with a minimum number of trips back and forth!

 

That’s unfortunate, but what did you expect? Purchased many new vehicles, if something is wrong most dealers will notify of possible diagnostic charges as yours did. If something is wrong, no problem, your not paying for it. Would of been better to take truck in under warranty than pre complain about potential warranty imo..

 

The dealership has a reputation of taking advantage of customers. I wanted a commitment on diag cost. There was no way I could walk into the dealership without having and estimate on the diag cost.

 

I'm honestly surprised they can legally declare an open-ended fee! MB is not particularly notable for anything, but the The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Motor Vehicle Work and Repairs) here says any repair over 100 bucks must have a pretty detailed written estimate and the final total be within 10%, among other requirements. I read that ON has a similar consumer protection act, so it seems like they are just asking to eat a fine.

 

Interesting, the dealer actually doing the work is in Steinbach which is the closest dealer from my ON dealer....hint, hint.

 

If they are that bad, it sounds like you are better off going somewhere else anyway. What else could they have found while doing the warranty work that wasn’t covered or some other way to rip you off. They might have even replaced your cabin filter for you and charged you $500 to do it or something.

 

When I brought my truck in for the same issue... I was open to paying for the Tech's 10 minute test drive. I guess I'm just beaten down to expect these fee's from dealerships. They never brought up a diagnostic fee however and just scheduled the test drive at my convenience. I don't find these fee's to be an outrageous idea, as I was sitting in the waiting area I overheard a service writer explain to a customer that there were no leaks to be found despite his claim, they checked brake fluid, looked for oil, power steering etc etc. They must go on a dozen wild goose chases a day and that would add up to real $$ over a years time. Maybe an unpopular opinion... The fee should be waived if something is found and the item is under warranty however.

 

I don't think Ruggy is asking for a free diagnosis or is unwilling to pay the tech for his time, he simply isn't willing to allow the dealer to charge him without the dealership committing to a quote and disclosing the cost.
You wouldn't get a loan without confirming what the interest rate is.
You wouldn't hire a contractor to put a new roof on your house without knowing what you will owe him.
This is no different.
Maybe not everyone wants to confirm cost up front, but i certainly do. Sure it may be free, but i want to know worst case scenario.

 

I completely understand and can see paying a fee when there isn't an issue. My argument to Toyota corporate was that there is a noise in 2WD and not in 4WD. The noise has been getting progressively worse and can be easily heard by anyone in the vehicle. The truck is stock, no lift and stock tires and wheels. So obviously there is something wrong with the truck. My warranty book states parts and labour are cover so fix the truck at no cost to me. If the dealer took it for a test drive and didn't hear the noise then yes I understand paying a fee for the test drive. The dealer told me they would charge a diag fee and would not commit to a cost and because of a dishonest service manager I couldn't subject myself to that.