No effing trans cooler?! I'm out Toyota

I can agree with you on that one.

 

Not sure how anyone can like peaches AND cantaloupe. . .one is like a piece of sweet, soft, decadent deliciousness. . . . And the other . . Well. . Ass fruit?

 

It's been a blast my friends. I'm gonna power down some metamucil and play a little Destiny 2. Getting old is grand.

 

Later!

 

Shaped like a cannonball. Archeologists have found skulls of old settlers that had been crushed by cantaloupes. It was a horrible way to go, as you waited to die the juice would get in your eyes and the seeds in your mouth...

 

Thats gotta be about the worst way to go. .

 

Nice try, but...

 

Okay I am going to play the devils advocate here. For all those saying things like " The engineers know best" and " they must know it is not needed" etc... then how do you explain the previous years having a trans cooler. I mean if the engineers know best then they must have known what they were doing when they designed the tundra with a trans-cooler. You cant have it both ways.. either they designed the trans coolers and were wrong, and possibly wrong about removing it, or they designed the trans cooler and were right but now are removing it for some undisclosed reason.

 

Geeesh. Try to stay on topic.

 

Millions of peaches
Peaches for me
Millions of peaches
Peaches for free

 

Bbq corn is amazing. Get a stick of butter on it while it's still hot....heaven

 

That reminds me of congestive heart failure.

 

I hate peaches and cantaloupes. Love pecans though. Miller Lite is better than Bud Light only because Bud Light is the worst beer ever. All the rednecks around here drink light beer of some sort. Just sayin.....

 

This guy right here makes sense. . .what part of GA you from?

 

Mitchell county, otherwise known as redneck central. We grow pecans here and peanuts. Boiled peanuts are the best snack ever if done right.

 

Oh, you way down there. I grew up in Dooly County . . . Similar as far as agriculture. .

 

Gennesee Cream Ale

 

https://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y

 

Two considerations: the minimum number of data points for your statistical population and when did you finally receive the last set of statistical data?

 

And were your data points randomly selected from a homogeneous population?

 

Oh yeah, corn is terrible. It's not for eating and it's definitely not for drinking so keep it out of my whisky.

Light beer is garbage. Actually, most beer from the major brewers is garbage.

It's complete bullshit that every sport other than hockey and the CFL gets to be playing right now.

 

Ummm... I cherry pick my data points so that my preferred outcome is supported statistically.

 

Never really understood that one myself. The Tundra used the ambient cooler from 2007 to 2018 and all of a sudden it was discovered that we no longer need it. Some will argue that WS fluid has changed in all those years and can withstand the higher temps but the 2018 used an ambient cooler and I dont expect there was a breakthrough in WS fluid technology. My feeling is that it's a compromise in that Toyota saw that most consumers buying the Tundra weren't pulling heavy loads so no need for the cooler. When R1234YF was introduced in 2019 and the condenser/trans cooler combo could no longer be used it simply wasn't worth the cost to re-engineer for a couple of model years.

 

How much does (did) it cost over base price to have a trans cooler from factory VS chasenicholas93's kit? Seems to me his kit might be superior too.

 

It isn't just the engineers involved in this. There is a host of considerations outside the engineering function. Engineering is there to support program goals and targets, and give program managers options.

The pattern that is repeated in situations like this is

Target condition
Current condition
Obstacles
Test, validate changes to overcome obstacles
Repeat.

Engineers are giving program managers options to work with for reaching targets. One of those targets was to integrate a R1234 condenser to support company goals for this type of refrigerant conversion (pretty typical in auto oem...like removing sources of lead...).

Engineers and program managers likely knew this change was coming down the pike for several years. Plenty of time to design some changes and test them.

The changes that can accommodate this, and appear to be present on the Tundra, are

• Shift mapping changes to chase lock up sooner, longer, and unlock only when absolutely necessary. This is the single biggest contributor to heat load. And the reason previous generations had an aux cooler.
• 4.30 gear standard...unloads the transmission
• Minor cooling system changes to keep coolant below 210F, and to support new refrigerant operational specs (pressure, temperature).
• There may be other changes we don't know about like fan clutch, or transmission component changes...

To explain this further, these changes were tested with removal of the aux cooler. The aux cooler removal coincided with a change in a.c condenser to move to R1234. If the thermal load from transmission was making it impossible for new condenser and refrigerant combo to work, then a deeper look was required. They may have known ahead of time that the transmission thermal load wasn't going to work with new refrigerant.

Reading between some lines between various videos with Toyota reps, it looks like they had a rather high target temperature range for fluid temps in realm of 250F. Not sure if this was the TQ or pan temps. To get to this knowledge that the AB60F can take this kind of heat likely took some further testing done over many years. They also likely considered that the fluid is a group iii oil and can withstand 280F (or greater for brief periods).

So with the new ac condenser, and the changes listed above, the transmissions, likely hundreds, were instrumented and tested to confirm/deny hypothesis that the aux cooler was needed to maintain target temps.

Changes like this are typically thoroughly tested, and the permutation is known or planned, well in advance. This occurs at all OEMs...not just Toyota. I'm betting from past experience working at an OEM in a design and testing position that this change was known and tested 3-4 years before it was finalized.

What engineers are "saying" is if given constraints x,y,z, then you need to make changes a,b,c (with each of a,b,c being a slew of variables like those listed above) and test them against known targets for a transmission, or a component like clutches, or seals, or gears.

Program managers (I'm guessing like Mike Sweers) then looks at the results of testing for options/permutations a,b,c. He has to decide which way to go based on many factors. One of these factors is how manufacturing will change to support each of a,b,c. Option c might be a lights-out option but if manufacturing can't support it, or the change to process is too dramatic, then option a,b is scrutinized. And so on...these evaluations are also considered in terms of larger corporate philosophy and long term goals.


Option a: new bracket, new air-oil cooler, new oil lines, new clamps,
Manufacturing changes needed: new drilling and tapping, new hose routing procedures, new QA/QC steps to check for proper hose routing and connection. Bracket dimension checks. need to get a vendor qualified and validated to make new cooler to Toyota specs. Even previous vendor would need requalification. Bracket manufacturing QC and procedures.
Design and engineering: Bracket material and anti-corrosion coating? Bracket mounting location? Will bracket interfere with any safety system performance? Both situations need testing to validate. Previous cooler location may not work with new condenser. Do we go with rubber or stainless tubing?
Change management: updating all BOM and repair manuals for new cooler. updating manufacturing procedures. Update virtual model of Tundra for new BOM and hose/tubing routing.
Program management: Is there residual risk that these changes in hose/tubing, routing, bracket, cooler, mounting, will create a manufacturing defect and how can we verify? (GM recently had an issue with their transmission cooler lines popping off in certain conditions...that would suck). Our FMEA indicates more tubing and hose = more opportunities for failures. Tundra already has too many engine coolant lines...

Option b: Do without auxillary cooling.
Manufacturing changes: new adapter plate. Remove procedures for previous routing and installing transmission thermostat and associated lines and finall connections.. No thermostat needed. No tubing and hose needed.
Design and engineering: We have a situation where the transmission thermostat opens up at 195-200F, only to have an aux cooler bring temps back down to 180F. The aux cooler is only needed when the converter runs out of lock up for extended periods. Can we change this? Final testing and validation of AB60F without aux cooler and shift map changes.
Change management: update BOM and repair manuals. and remove previous items from virtual model of Tundra.
Program management: Transmission runs 40F warmer but is within our temp targets that are well established for AB60F durability, and shift-map changes, and rear gearing, brought temps to an improved and sustainable range under our targets. We get less parts and less total change to manage. This translates to less waste and less opportunities for defects. Do we have any realistic residual risk with running 40F higher than previous configurations? If so we have ability to further tune shifting and lock up.

Basically to me the only way this makes any sense is if Toyota knew, absolutely, and completely, that the AB60F can handily sustain 40F higher temps.

It isn't a surprise to me that if a change can be made such that a system can work and meet targets with less parts, that Toyota would carefully consider this.

 

Stop making sense please, you’ll upset the conspiracy theorists who are absolutely convinced Toyota is blatantly screwing it’s customers to save a few $’s.

 

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night?



Thanks for that very well written explanation.

 

- You clearly haven't had grilled corn.

- Agreed, but whiskey is better than any beer.

- Hockey's gotten boring. Too many rules now. The CFL isn't really relevent any more.

Change my mind.