Possible torque converter shudder?

Not to get off topic, but I’m am indeed lucky to have him. I can honestly say in 25+ years of being his customer with about 1/2 dozen vehicles I have never had to return a vehicle to him with the same problem - it was always diagnosed and repaired properly the first time. He has 5 or 6 techs, the youngest having been with him 20+ years, a couple have been with him 30+ years. And for DYIers or those a little short on cash, his shop is more than happy to diagnosis a problem for customer, they just charge for diagnostic time in 10 minute increments, tell you what the problem is and how to fix it, and you can take the vehicle home and make the repairs yourself.

Now if I could only find HVAC techs, and other tradesmen, locally with the same diagnostic mentality, I’d be all set. I’m sure they are out there, trying to find them, is another ballgame. LOL

 

Good Hvac techs are hard to find........

 

I have a very good technician locally. But he’s not much of a transmission guy unfortunately. He can remove and replace no issue. But diagnosing transmission specifics isn’t something he ever got into.

 

Different brand,but I had 2 F150’s the same symptom appeared in both of them.

I changed the fluid and filter,and added the Shudder Fix. Problem solved.

I hope for the best for you OP

 

Find out how much the price of just a Torque Convert Part without labor and you’ll see why I’ve recco’d the used transmission. Answer: $1000 for 2002 TC.

Some here have bought used trannys for $400 and swapped them in no problem. Labor? No sure.

 

Also having a 2005 Tundra SRS DC with 4.7 L I can tell you that is not true. Toyota calls their filters a “screen”, but the transmission is not sealed. The service company I mentioned (AgCo Automotive) has done every transmission service on my truck since I bought it new. Every 30,000 miles they drop the transmission pan, drain the fluid, re-torque the valve body, replace the filter, add new Toyota transmission fluid. They also cut open the old filter and inspect it for debris that might indicate internal transmission wear. It is not like Honda transmissions that are indeed sealed and transmission is serviced solely by draining and re-filing with fresh fluid.

New transmission fluid has friction modifiers as an additive that often will prevent torque shudder, and those additives are depleted over time.

In fact, here is a quote from one of the articles I posted and suggested that you read.

“Toyota automatic transmission screens
Toyota refers to some of their automatic transmission filters as a screen. This is a matter of semantics and does NOT change the need for replacement. Well-meaning salespersons have told clients the screen is permanent or that it does not require replacement. This is not correct. Automatic transmission filters are sacrificial by design. That is, removing the debris that would otherwise damage the automatic transmission restricts them.”.

Double check your invoice, and if doesn’t indicate a filter was replaced, then they likely did a flush, which when all is said and done replaces very little of the fluid in the torque converter. You’ll needed a proper transmission service where the pan is dropped, filter replaced, have them re-torque the valve body, and replace with Toyota OEM transmission fluid specified for that vehicle. Do all that before you start seriously thinking you may need a torque converter/transmission replacement. I bet dollars to donuts your issue is not a major one. My service company told me it is rare for 05 Tundras to have significant transmission issues even at well over 200 K miles unless it was abused by the previous owner.

 

Dammit, sorry for the bad news on your flush. Took mine in today and two techs went for a drive but neither wanted to drive this time around. They looked at my previous visits with service manager and they concluded that they wanted to start from the beginning and remove my TRD cold air intake they installed before shutter started. They want me to drive it for a week and see if it fixes issue. When they installed it the truck drove like crap and no gains in HP but gains in a couple of mph. A week later I returned to dealer to tell them my truck drives like crap plus rpm are revving high and it’s seems to be confused and searching for gears. They apparently removed program and relearned program/ software and they said it definitely is running better. It did drive better but shutter never went away.! So let’s see how my appointment tomorrow go’s.

 

@bmf4069 you are slacking man!

 

I was about to say the same thing, where TF is he!?

 

Malted Pops and Video Games.

 

Electricians have a tough life! I kinda miss being around sparkies in the new commercial construction sector.

 

you may be fighting a degrading valve body, for the price of a new torque converter or new trans, i would look into a used unit with a decent warranty and less miles.

something to try is have the dealer (or someone with a nice scan tool) reset the transmission memory and then take it for a drive driving VERY lightly, to relearn shift patterns

filter is replaceable. you have to drop the pan to do so, but its replacable

 

I’ve looked around for a used transmission and most have 130k miles or more anywhere within 4 hours of me. Most offer a 12 month parts and labor warranty. The labor cost of doing a torque convert and trans are the same at the shop I go to. Cheapest I found a torque converter was 179 on rock auto. Honestly I’m just not sure what to do at this point. The dealership definitely didn’t replace the screen/filter. I’m just not sure it’s worth my time to search around for another dealer to replace the screen or not. It’ll be another 150-200 dollars and still possibly not fix it. It got worse with the new fluid so to me that tells me that its been an ongoing issue and someone probably used a ton of lubegard shudder fix or something to hide it. Now that there’s fresh fluid and no lubegard (or equivalent) it’s worse (that’s my theory). I’m just at a loss I guess.

 

It could have been abused. I don’t know anything about the history of it. How does dropping the pan extract anymore fluid from the torque converter? From research I’ve done the capacity on our transmissions is 11-11.5 and the dealer changed 10 on my particular one. So possibly they missed 1 quart. But without removing the torque converter I don’t see how you could get every ounce of fluid out.

 

If they got 10 quarts out I doubt another fluid change is going to solve your problem. You will get more fluid out when you drop the pan but I don't think it's worth it. Also, I really doubt the "filter" is your problem. I just dropped the pan on my 18 year old transmission and found zero metal shavings on the magnets or inside the filter. The only thing you would gain from dropping the pan is that you could inspect the magnets for metal shavings. But even that is only confirming you have a problem, and doesn't help fix it.

I would take Empty Lord's advice. He's a Toyota mechanic. See how much the dealer would charge to reset the memory.

 

As I understand it with a transmission flush new fluid is mixed with old fluid, recirculated on a continuous basis and at the end of the day not a significant amount of the old trans fluid is replaced - you may have been charged for 10 qts but more than likely 10 qts were not actually replaced. If you currently have a restricted transmission filter, flushing stirs up debris in the pan further restricting the filter making the the vehicle running situation worst, as you described following your flush.

If if helps, if you are willing to listen to a couple radio podcasts, the “Automotive Hour” AgCo Automotive” Louis Altazan (the tech service I’ve used for 25+ years) the Oct 19, 2019 podcast they discusses reasons why a transmission flush might not be ideal and the June 20, 2020 podcast discusses automatic transmission repair and service and myths about transmission service (note it is a recorded call in show, so they take calls on any automotive topic but they discuss the themes in between phone calls; each podcast is a about 50 minutes; I use the “Podcast” app on my iPhone or iPad to listen to shows I miss live. The two shows I mentioned are available to listen to on the podcast app.)

I understand your reticence of dropping another $ couple hundred to have the pan dropped and filter changed and additional trans fluid added (just checked my records and 4.5 qts of fluid is added with a filter change) but that is still preferable to a couple grand + for a transmission replacement.

Did you try this technique in the article I linked to see if this might help you self diagnose if your issue is indeed torque converter shudder and not an engine misfire? Of course checking for diagnostic codes with the OBD II that would be stored in memory, flash updates, etc. as already mentioned by others, is advisable.

“A quick test
On many vehicles, one way to identify a torque converter shudder is lightly touching the brake pedal. While carefully maintaining vehicle speed with one foot, delicately apply the brakes with the other. If the shudder immediately stops, with brake application, the problem is likely the torque converter clutch. When the operating system sees brake application, most vehicles release the torque converter clutches. A trained transmission-service technician can also test for torque converter lockup using a specific vehicle scan tool. These tests are important as a slight engine misfire very often causes the same sensation and is may be mistaken for a torque converter shudder. “

Best of luck, I hope you can find a good auto tech with a good diagnostic skills to ID the cause of your problem.

 

I did do the test and it seems to make it stop for a moment. It’s very tough though. The vehicle does very randomly. Even when I think I can make it do it I can’t. But when it does it, it’s very noticeable. Feels just like driving over a rumble strip. I found another website that said to drive it until you feel it. Come to a stop, with your foot on the break start accelerating and see if you feel it (if so then torque converter is the culprit) and I believe I did feel it while doing that.

 

I've had the torque converter shutter on two vehicles. One was an 05 Honda CRV the other an 08 FJ Cruiser which I still have (wife's vehicle). The Honda was bad and known for getting them but was able to most get it to go away. The FJ I was really pissed when it started to happen because we traded in the honda for it partially because of the shutter. It experienced the same symptoms and issue at the same speeds you are describing. I successfully got the shutter to go away completely. Did a lot of research and reading on it and first found that there are better ATF fluids out there than the Toyota ATF WS fluid, some good reading but not the only place I read up on this: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...e-get-it-out-of-your-transmission-now.331521/

Both vehicles it took a full ATF flush/replacement and time. It also takes a quality ATF fluid. In the FJ I believe I used Valvoline Maxx Life ATF, good list here of ATF fluids https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads...a-ws-atf-automaitc-transmission-fluid.373083/

I also did the fluid change a little different on the FJ than typical. I'll have to find the write up I followed on it but Get two nice new 5 gal buckets. and get extra ATF fluid than you think you need. Take the ATF fluid cooler lines at the front of the vehicle and put the return (back to the trans) in a bucket an fill with the new ATF fluid. Take the output line and put it in an empty bucket but make sure to secure it some how, I used duct tape. Hop in the vehicle and turn it on letting it run for 10-30 seconds (depending on how risky you want to be). This sucks the new fluid in and pushes the old fluid out (with some mixing). DO NOT LET THE NEW FLUID BUCKET GO EMPTY. Repeat the engine run cycles until the fluid coming out of the output line is clean ATF fluid. When thats done hook everything back up, check the trans fluid level to make sure its correct (not under or over filled) and test drive. Did this one the FJ and man, that was the worst ATF fluid I have ever seen. FJ and 16X,XXX miles on it when we got it and I doubt if the ATF fluid was ever changed. I mean, almost strait black.

Here is the time thing, it might get a little better instantly but still be there. It takes time for the new ATF fluid to get to all the different locations and torque converter clutch. After about a week of driving the shutter in my FJ was non existent and has not come back for another 20Kish miles we've put on since.

Just my input on the subject with my experiences with torque shutters.

 

personally i would avoid the rockauto torque converter. if your going through the process of doing a torque converter your better off with OEM. because those aftermarkets may not last.. and it aint a fun job pulling it again. My tundra got a used trans before i bought it due to torque converter shudder that turned into a transmission hard code. its fine since (other than a 5th gear shift flare cold, but thats... common sadly on these transmissions)

 

Animus- thank you for the feedback. I may just try that. I noticed yesterday that it didn’t do it as often and if it was doing it, it was slight and not as “violent”. If you get a chance to find that write up please do! I assumed Toyota ws fluid was a better one but maybe not! I’ve thought of trying to add some additive to it and see what happens, like the lubegard shutter fix or other lubegard products, or Lucas.

empty_lord- I most likely won’t be going the route of the torque converter only. I came across some oem ones when I first searched and it seemed as though they worth approximately $800 and at that rate it would probably be more beneficial to buy a used transmission I would think. Also would a snap on modis scanner reset the transmission learning? My mechanic uses one and wouldn’t charge me for resetting it.

 

I’ve read about that method. Also, Timmeah Toyota has a youtubes where he pumps one quart out at the radiator hose and fills the new quart into the dipstick hole. He starts the method with a drain and fill in the pan so everything is fresh from that point. This method seems more controllable.

 

I feel timmathys version is the better way to go, it cuts a bit of time out of the two buckets way, ensures your pumping fresh fluid from the get go, and in my logic; less stress on the tranny pump. Tools mans way doesn’t require the pump to “suck” anything, it’s only pushing the new fluid thru the system. I did it this way on our 4runner and it worked well

 

Yeah. Agree. Better control of the system dynamics.

 

I drove it for about an hour straight today. I noticed it would kind of do it but it’s no where near as violent. Just some shaking while going up hills in overdrive. Goes away when it down shifts. Usually around 40mph. So I’m thinking the instant shudder fix has definitely improved it. I’m not sure if adding more would help? If it stays like this I can work with it. But if it goes back to what it was, it was extremely violent and was just like hitting rumble strips. Now it’s just a slight vibration that I can notice and feel.

also empty_lord- the torque converter shutter started causing transmission codes? I’m weighing my options at this point. If I can keep it from being as aggressive as it was then I’ll run it for a while and see what happens. I just don’t want catastrophic failure that leaves me stranded somewhere.

 

I've had good luck with the lucas trans additive. I think you said the shop did 10 quarts so it sounds like a full fluid exchange, but do you know what fluid they used?

 

@Gearhead22 here is one link https://www.fjcforums.com/forums/en...14-diy-transmission-fluid-flush-pictures.html

I think that one is more like what Timmeah Toyota's method is and I think this is the one a actually did with dropping a hose in the fill plug with having a large funnel in the engine bay. There is another write up somewhere that did the "suck" method I'll see if I can find. In the end I think ended up using 13 qts total.

I also used the Lubegard in both vehicles and it did seem to help, even prior to doing the full flush.

 

Just because they charged you for 10 quarts that didn't mean they really swapped 10 quarts.

 

Thank you for that! So far the lubegard has seemed to help it quite a bit. No telling how long that’ll hold up. I’m thinking of either adding a second bottle or adding some of there transmission fluid alternative or add some Lucas in there. I can’t imagine it would hurt anything adding a little more of something in there.

to the above comment asking what fluid was put back in, I’m unsure exactly. I’d have to look at my service sheet. I know it calls for Toyota ws fluid but who knows what they actually put in and if the service sheet even says what.

To another above comment talking about they may have charged me for 10 and not actually used 10, that is 100% possible. Unfortunately shops seem to not always be the most honest. I hope they charged me for what they used. If I can get the proper filter for the transmission I could then have my mechanic do a proper flush with the method mentioned above with Valvoline maxlife or something. Not sure if that’s a better more friction filled fluid than Toyota ws. I’m not sure Toyota ws even has man friction modifiers in it? Maybe someone knows. Thank you all for the help and opinions by the way! Hopefully I can get it dealt with without having to change the transmission. Hopefully some fluid concoction can alleviate it

 

my modus edge can. so i would imagine his can too.