Who is running a single 12" sub?

Are you using a digital signal processor?

 

No, everything I need as far as a DSP is in my Kenwood Excelon DMX906S HU: crossovers, EQ, and TA..

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-eGD2OX9XM81/p_113DMX906S/Kenwood-Excelon-DMX906S.html

Funny you mention it though.
When I worked with it yesterday, even when I run the front doors flat (crossover and EQ) the bass response is lacking in them.
I have everything off on the amp and HU, no crossover, loudness, bass boost, etc..

I don't think the problem HU, I'm on my 5th HU; Entune, Kenwood, Pioneer, Pioneer, and Kenwood again (long story) and the sound has been lacking in all of them.
I even ran my iPhone straight to the amp and it sounded the same, bad.

Seems the amp and the subs are to the 2 common factors of the system since I started, so I'll try replacing the amp first.

 

I vote you get a DSP. Your HU doesn't allow individual EQ of each driver and then matching up sides. That makes a big difference. And you could really tailor your bass needs as well. Looks to me like you have solid equipment already.

 

So I've read through the thread here and I feel your pain.

I truly believe that your problem is in system design and the vehicle itself. JL audio puts an incredible amount of time and money into their Stealth box technology to provide the best possible overall Bass. I would be surprised if someone can "out build" a box for the truck.

I have an Apline Halo HU going directly to an Audison Voce 5.1k amp, then right to Revel Elate 3-way fronts and the JL subs. It is the simplicity that makes the difference... Less is more. I spent about $3500 just on sound dampening and environment control. Then spent over 100 hours to install it all and get everything prepped. This process is not "drop in" it is science. The best performance for a sub comes from a sealed enclosure, end of discussion. Your amp has to be able to control the woofers, in order to hear them accurately. This is where the amp needs to be precise, not just "a 1000000watts" but usable, controlled, power that has fidelity.

After I installed everything and correctly wired it, I started my tuning journey... This process is a long and often frustrating task, but the more you have correctly prepared the vehicle, the less "noise" you will have to tune out or into. I'm not saying my system is perfect, because our trucks are sonically horrible to start, but I have had many a tuned ear listen to my truck and they have all been blown away with the quality and power of the system.

My suggestion is to remove the center and rear speakers first, and ensure that all wiring is correct. I promise you that you will have phase issues in your truck and this is the number 1 killer of Bass and synchrony. You have to pitch the front drivers up to clear the center console, and definitely group your drivers as close to each other as possible to retain their coherence. Listen to just one channel at a time to ensure your components are phased correct, and then combine one front channel with the sub, then the other, then just by itself. You will find that your slope settings and cut off points will change drastically as you switch between the combinations. This is where the phasing issues can be identified.

Finding the right combinations of levels, cutoffs, inverts, processing, time alignment, and source choice makes for a very lengthy process. I have easily put 100+ hours into just listening and tweaking with micro adjustments. Also, if you make an adjustment, let your ears rest overnight, and listen again the next day... You'll find yourself frustrated to find you probably will change it again!

To sum:. Simpler system design is infallible. Vehicle environmental prep and control are paramount. With your subs... Whatever box is dropped in there needs to be coupled to the vehicle with bolts. Tuning will get you what you're looking for only if you have given the system a fighting chance.
Most guys here will be happy with the $2k drop in kit from a vendor (nothing wrong with that) as it is better than stock. But if you want something that you can't find in your system now, you're not going to get it by just "dropping in" a 12"

 

Have you thought about grabbing a decent but not expensive 12 sub and box off craigslist just to test? I see them for $100 all the time and you can turn around and sell if if you want to upgrade after that.

 

That is a good idea, but I don't time to deal with Craigslist.
BUT, I could order one from Crutchfield and return it.
I know it is only $10 to return HUs and amps, I wonder if something bigger would cost more to return..

That is something to consider though, thank you for the idea.

 

That is very helpful..
I've pretty much decided I need to ditch the rear speakers totally, no one sits back there and they don't seem to add anything.
I would bridge the front doors to the Alpine but that would be running 200 watts RMS thru a 75 watt RMS rated set of components.

I'm not running any dash speakers, my Focal PS 165FX in the front doors sound fine and give a nice front stage presence.
I appreciate the input on the sealed sub.
I'm hoping the extra sub wattage on the Focal amp helps, but it is only 200 more watts.
I'm not expecting much.

The Stealthbox bolts to the floor using rear seat bolts, so that is covered.

Sound deadening? Check..
I probably over did it; rear wall, floor, doors inside and out.






It would take me several years to have 100 hours to sit and tune this system working 60 hours a week and doing honey-dos on weekends.
Another problem is I just don't have the patience to do it.
I understand what the gains, crossovers, EQ, and TA do, I just don't have the gumption to sit for hours and jack with it.
I just need to round it out and make it sound nice.
But I will go thru the process you mentioned after I try the Focal amp.

As previously stated, if was starting from scratch, one of tech12volts packages would probably fit my needs.
I even considered an OEM Audio Plus system, but an 8" sub in a plastic enclosure isn't going to do it for me.

I'm no where near an audiophile, I just want a decent system that I can enjoy.
I want to hear and feel the bass guitar, lower keyboard notes, and drums.
Not in a rear view mirror shaking kind of way, but crisp, clean, and clear audio.
I have that in the upper mids and highs in my front (and rear) doors, just not the low end.
The low end I have is sloppy, it doesn't punch, it isn't clear, it isn't tight.

I do appreciate your time and your input.
I will apply a lot of in my future attempts with this matter.

 

I am running the factory HU with an Audio Control Lc6i. I have infinty 6x9's in the front doors and 6.5 components in the rear. I had the entire cab of the truck sound deadened with Dynamat. I am running a DS18 shallow mount subwoofer on all DS18 amps. If I can find a mic that will record the overall sound, I will post a video. SHE BANGS!!

 

Just out of curiosity, which DS18 sub and amp are you using?
10" or 12" and how many watts?

My first attempt with my 2014 was with the Entune and an LC6i, never could get that sounding good.
Again, the common denominator being the Alpine and/or the Stealthbox.



If anyone remembers the JBL MS-8 DSP, I tried that as well with the Entune.
The MS-8 is supposed to set itself through it's own calibration procedure.
Even bought a second 4 channel amp to run the rears and bridge the other 2 channels for the center dash.
Was running the Focal front components bi-amped on the PDX V-9 in the front doors.
Installed a 4" Focal for the center dash.
Never could get a decent calibration out of it, trying for over 8 months.






Perhaps all this helps explain my frustration of trying to get my audio satisfactory in my 2014.

Maybe the problem is I just don't know WTF I'm doing.
But after installing my own audio in my vehicles since 1978 and reading about the Tundra stuff for 15 years, you'd think I'd of learned something..

 

Nice installs! You can tell you take pride in your work. The focal and PDXV9 is good equipment. Judging from your pics and what you've been explaining, it sounds like you do know what you're doing. I know it's frustrating to try different equipment and not get the results you want. I tried different subs /setups also. I tried JL dual 8w3" in ported box. dual JL 10W1 sealed. Rockford P3S dual 10" shallow mount subs. But I never tried 12" sub in Tundra. I had 12" in other cars. I prefer the sound of 8" or 10" sub, in my experience they are more accurate and tighter. But maybe I should have tried a 12. I'm not an audiophile expert but I do feel that I have a good ear for good sound quality. For whatever reason I was never able to get the right bass I was looking for either in my Tundra. That's why I said earlier...I just accepted the fact that I won't be able to replicate the sound that I had in other cars in the Tundra. But I did finally get it to where I'm content and happy with it.

I had the Audio control LC6 also before I changed to aftermarket headunit. I had good luck with it in my other cars also so I decided to use it again, no complaints.

The JBL MS8 was not a good product. (at least in my experience). We tried it in my buddies Tundra and made it sound worse. I think it sound better without it, so we took it out.

 

Nice reply.
It looks like you have put in some effort. I hope you find a solution that works for you. While you're tuning, shift your listening position around the truck to see if the sound you are looking for exists anywhere in the truck. From there it would be relatively easy to time-align that up to your listening position. If you don't hear what you think you are missing, then you have to do some more work! Also, try different variations with the windows open half open, one side or the other. Sometimes you discover an anomaly that produces a sweet spot in the system, kind of like standing in just the right spot at a concert. Good luck, have patience, and you'll eventually get there.

 

I am running the EXL series for the amps and the IXL shallow mount 12. The sub is 800 RMS.

I hope I'm not breaking any forum guidelines but here is the ig page of my install.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGB-GZ5sFOK/?igshid=1lhr9d3tvpmwq

 

Thank you again to everyone for the input and support.

I'm always interested in what equipment worked for others.
Gives me a chance to see and research brands I've never heard of.

That is a very nice install..

I think this would help my door speakers.
I have 2 sets of Road Kill

$23 RKFR6 3 Piece Foam Speaker Enhancer System Kit for 6" & 6.5" Drivers,Black

RKFR6 3 Piece Foam Speaker kits in the garage.
I just haven't gotten around to installing them.

 

So I’m pretty sure we have the same HU, front 3 way focals, I have the focal 2 ways in the back and the same JL stealthbox you have. I did the dynamat like yours too. I’m running the stealthbox off a jl hd750 monoblock, jl hd600/4 to the 2 ways and then jl vxi 800 going to the focal 3 ways plus a focal mid in the center channel. I have the sub crossing over at 80hz 12db slope from the HU. The bass that you’re looking for from the kick drums etc need to come from your 6.5’s and not the subs. Cross the over lower and possibly increase the gain and you’ll bring them alive. These focals can go deep what do have them set to?

 

If you're dropping the rears and have the 4 channels available and you're really after the best sound, you should consider adding a DSP and go active with your front stage. Even better would be add a DSP and find someone who really knows what they're doing to tune it. The real magic of car audio comes from the tuning process - getting time alignment perfect with impulse response or what not, EQing each speaker and EQ matching pairs of speakers, verifying cohesion - with the right mics and tools all the guesswork is taken out of it and you can actually verify that things are working together and properly. There's still some final dialing in to what your ears prefer of course, but it makes a world of difference.

 

That’s very true. I have eq set to flat, no bass boosts, everything on the head unit set to off. Gain on the sub amp is set so my bass dial upfront is set half way and then I tweak up or down according to the song. The music source is vital too. How to flac files sound? For instance find a ‘master’ quality version of s song like korn - “You’ll never find me”. The snare drums should be ear splitting and the kick drums should be giving you brain damage. I can’t crank it too loud for fear of permanent damage to my ears and we have the same set up near enough. Somethings not set up right.
Trying bringing your high pass down to 50hz for your door woofers. You said no DSP so instead maybe try bumping your eq in the 100-400hz range for the mid bass you’re looking for. The subs will handle all the rumble and some of the kick drum but that attack sound you want to feel in your chest needs to come from upfront. The meat of the bass is then backed up a little lower in the hz range by your subs. Keep your rear fill speakers too. I was definitely prefer the overall sound with them on.
Lastly, what ta settings are you using on the headunit? That made a massive difference for me

 

The way you guys describe car audio and music makes me want to kick all other mods to the curb and drop 5k on my audio setup

 

I appreciate the input that would involve a lot more time that I want to invest..
I already have EQ and TA on my HU.
I can't EQ speakers individually, see line 1, but I have TA.
And, as previously stated, the front stage is fine, the low end is where I'm having issues.

 

What are your crossover frequencies for the sub and midrange and what slopes are you using?

 

80 Hz for both
Slope 18 on the doors 24 on the sub

 

There is a good case to start with the sub x-over being about 0.5 octaves lower than the mids and also using 24 dB/octave slope on each so that you dont have any phase issues. Have you tried crossing the mids at around 85 dB and the sub at 60 dB give or take both with 24 db/octave slope? (Of course, what really matter is acoustic crossover so use whatever electric crossover needed to achieve this.) You might have some phase issues in the crossover region that is muddying things up.
It would be great to have some measurements with say RTA but I'll only say it one more time: get a DSP. It can make modest equipment sound great and you have pretty darn good equipment already. Plus you can make measurements to see what the actual problem is rather than just throwing money at new amps or whatever without actually knowing it that is going to do anything.

 

I'm starting to contribute my biggest issue to I don't know WTF I'm doing.
Please let me explain...

A few things happened over the last couple days.
So at the risk of portraying myself as an idiot, I'll explain.
Perhaps my ignorance can help others.
So here goes:

1. Crutchfield pissed me off.
When I ordered the Focal amp Wednesday, I was told it would ship that day and I'd get it Friday to test install over the weekend.
They didn't ship it until Thursday, got an email late that day, amp is scheduled to arrive Monday.
I called them early Friday, they blamed it on Covid, I told them to contact UPS and have the package returned.
The more I thought about it, the less I thought the Focal amp was going to make a difference.
With the shipping screw up, I took it as an omen, and canceled the order.
I was going to have an issue getting that 14" amp to mount under the passenger's seat anyway.

I read a lot audio forums and watched serval videos Thursday night.
Took some of that and applied it Friday.

2. Friday morning I permanently rewired the Stealthbox in parallel to bring it down to 2 ohms.
I had temporarily wired it that way when I took it apart and found it wired in series earlier this week.
The temp 2 ohm wiring made it sound better.
Apparently one of my temp wires came off when I did that.
When I finished the wiring permanently, it sounded even stronger.

3. When I bought the Alpine amp for this 2014 Tundra audio journey, I bought a SMD Distortion Detector DD-1 to set my amp gains.
I've used it religiously for the last few years.
The DD-1 tells me my HU has no distortion, even at full volume, and I find that hard to believe.
I would do all my adjustments at 3/4 HU volume.
The DD-1 tells me my proper gain setting is it right at 11 o'clock on the gain dial, just a c-hair to the left of Nom/center.
It reads that for all 3 gain settings; front, rear, and sub.
If I turn the front or rear door channels up, I can hear the distortion in the doors and it sounds overpowering.
If I turn up the sub too much, the sound makes me nauseous, kind of like I would imagine vertigo feels like.

So finding the proper gain levels over the last few years, it never occurred to me to try turning them down.
I turned the sub gain down and it started to clear up the muddy distortion of the sub.
The DD-1 read the gains set to 11 o'clock, I now have it set closer to 9 o'clock.
It seems lowering the sub gain may have set the Stealthbox to acceptable levels than I can now clean up with the EQ.
I'm still not getting the deep lows, but I think that has to do with the limitations of the subwoofer.

But would someone in the know answer this:
The Kenwood HU DDX6906S has a preamp voltage of 5 volts.
The input sensitivity of the Alpine PDX V9 (RCA Input): 0.2 - 4 V (CH1/2, CH3/4), 0.1 - 4 V (Subwoofer)
Is there a problem with the HU having a higher output voltage than the input of the amp?

 

I'll try that.
I'm a lot closer to my goal since I lowered the sub gain.

What good would a separate DSP do, other than EQ each speaker individually, that my HU won't do?
Besides that, every DSP I've looked into requires a laptop to tune it.
I have 4 PCs in this house but not one laptop.

I considered buying a JL Audio VX1000/5i, but I don't have a laptop to utilize the DSP, and from what I read, I could only get basic tuning from the app on my iPhone.
Plus I'd probably overwhelmed of all the possibilities and time required of tuning with it.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_13698632/JL-Audio-VX1000-5i.html?tp=115

And with that, if I'm going to go with a DSP, I might as well put the Entune back in, although I'd miss my wireless Carplay.

I would like to find a local shop that I could trust to tune it up.
But the ones I've talked with seem to be staffed by bullshitters.
Mostly selling stuff to kids that just want it loud without any sense of clarity..

 

The one major benefit to the dsp over what you have in the HU is the ability to EQ each driver and moreover each side individually. The speakers to your left are interacting with the environment differently than the ones on the right. I have measured this in my tundra and it is very noticeable. (Like some frequency bands differ left and right side by 10 dB) When you align the frequencies, the presence of the music or soundstage comes alive and stays localized. Like the singer is there, slightly to the left of the center of the dash. The bass guitar is more to the right etc. It really is amazing what it can do. Besides that, for your issue you can make measurements then tune and see if that worked or not. The sub response can be tuned for whatever frequency curve you like essentially.

I have a minidsp C6x8 and yes it takes quite some time to learn and I do use a laptop though other dsps can work through a phone. I have fully moved into the camp that a dsp is a requirement for good sound. I would rather have average drivers/amps and a dsp than great drivers/amp and no dsp. The acoustic environment of the truck interior is so challenging that equipment that looks great on the bench will perform very differently than in the truck.
As for a shop to tune it, well there are some agreements on great sound but if you are not going to put in the time to learn how to use it yourself, then maybe skip it. But if you want great sound plan to invest in a dsp and time to learn to use it.
Good luck either way.

 

I’m gonna go out to the truck today and mess around with it. My front 3 ways sound muddy after I just swapped the battery for an x2 27f. I was getting very tired of having to jump my truck. That may have more to do with the phone app always connected for remote start/doors etc I don’t know.

There is definitely something to be said for lowering gains especially bass. Try and find a clean 50hz sine wave to tune the amp. Start the bass knob at half way on the remote dial, the amp gain set all the way down and then crank the hu to the 3/4ish mark like you’ve been doing. Careful cause your ears will start crying if it’s too loud. Raise the subs amp gain until you hear it start to clip the sound and then back it off a bit. Done

I’ve never really messed with pink noise etc cause it’s not necessary imo. That will get you from 90% to 100% if you’re an audiophile then of course that’s worth it. If you’re like the rest of us and just want to crank some tunes all you need tuned are the basics.

The solution to my problem was to set the pass for my 6.5’s lower. I think at like 53hz but I’ll double check the jl software. By the way after my experiences I give dsp’s the thumb down. I’m all about simplicity and you need to be a sound engineer to properly understand all the ins and outs of the DSP. In my opinion again you can get incredible enough sound just from a passive system. You won’t win competitions but it will sound better than 99.99% of anything else out there

 

Btw is it just me or are those new kenwood big screen head units looking mighty tempting....

https://www.kenwood.com/usa/car/excelon/dnr1007xr/

Btw you mentioned wireless CarPlay. How do you primarily listen to music on the truck? I don’t want to insult your intelligence but for instance if I play an Apple music track it’s likely I won’t be satisfied with how it’s hitting. If I then play that same song via flac my whole system will come alive. The better your set up is the worse it is affected by lower quality sources.

I’d say my biggest complaint right now with my system is I have to somewhat crank it to hear all the detail and sometimes, especially driving home from work late I want something quiet but with all the detail still. It’s probably an easy fix somewhere like creating a late night setting with loudness etc but again I’m a keep it simple stupid kinda guy

 

A little bit more scientific approach to setting gains, if you have a DMM. You could also use an oscilloscope to look for clipping but I am guessing most people do not have that.

https://learn.sonicelectronix.com/how-to-adjust-amplifier-gains-using-a-digital-multi-meter/

 

I have a Kenwood excelon HU and I like it a lot. It doesnt have lag with the touchscreen that some other brands are known to exhibit.

 

My 9906 is just fine for everything I need and much more but I don’t like how small it looks in the dash. Plus I get a little excited thinking about having a volume knob again. The up/down buttons are perfectly fine but it’s still annoying

Last question for OP for music are you connected via Bluetooth or cable? What device?