Do my subs need more power?

I'm currently running a SB-T-TUNDB3/10TW3 twin 10 JL Audio Stealhbox off an Alpine PDX V9 5 channel amp.
This box contains two 10TW3-D8 subs wired at 2 ohms it is rated at 800 watts.
Each sub is rated at 400 watts RMS.
Amp sub channel puts out 500 watts RMS, 100 RMS X4.

It sounds OK after being tuned by my son in law, but is missing something.
It seems loud enough, but doesn't have the full sound I'm wanting, mostly at lower volumes.

I bought a JL Audio JX1000/1 (1000w rms at 2 ohms) and a JL Audio JX400/4D (70w rms X4) that are still in the box to replace the Alpine.
I also bought new wire (0ga copper and 4ga copper), distribution, blocks, etc, to replace my 4 ga Copper-Clad Aluminum wire that is run from the battery to the amp now.

But my question is this;
Is replacing the sub amp with twice the wattage going to make the sub sound better at lower levels, or is it just going to make it louder?
People I've emailed and discussed this issue with say my subs are under powered, some say WAY under powered.

I don't need it LOUD, I just need a nice full sounding system and will be cranked occasionally.
I usually listen to Rock, alternative, old country.

I just don't want to swap the amps out and hear the same sound I'm hearing now.

I'm either going to swap all this out, or send everything back to crutchfield.

I'm also going back and forth on trying a ported sub box.

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance...1LL

 

Ported box will help get some air flow

 

Alright..
Since I had a little time before work today, I tried the 1000w amp out.
I'll post what happened in case anyone gives a sh!t.








I used 4ga jumper cables to power the amp and remote, grounding it with a seat bolt.

Honestly, the 2 amps didn't sound that much different.
The 1000w amp may have had a tad more umph, but not much.
Still on the fence on swapping them out or returning the amps.

 

I'm running a JL audio 12 inch tw3 with a 400w JL audio amp in a ported box behind the seat. Plenty loud and sounds great. I am running an alpine halo9 headunit

 

From what I've read a ported box also needs less power making me more inclined to keep what I have.
The tech sheet for the Alpine reads the sub channel at 545 watts rms.
If I got a ported box and it didn't work out, I could always sell it.

I'm looking at these ported boxes.

tech12volts.com

https://www.shop.tech12volts.com/product.sc?productId=232&categoryId=125

Fox Acoustics

https://www.foxacoustics.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TDC-210-V-07-DF

Net Audio

https://www.netaudiowf.com/product/2014-15-toyota-tundra-double-cab-sub-box-downfire-dual-ported/

Maybe I should start another thread on ported box choice...

 

Are u on stock head unit or after market?

 

$599 Pioneer AVH-W4400NEX In Dash Multimedia Receiver with 7" WVGA Clear Resistive Touchscreen Display

Pioneer AVH-W4400NEX

I gotta admit driving home from work running BT off the iPhone the Alpine sounds pretty good.
I usually listen to XM and I'm finally realizing how crappy the XM signal is..

 

Better box and better tuning is what you need. Not more power. Higher power gives you more headroom but those subs will grenade before you can ever actually push that much power to them.

 

The JL stealth box is one of the best subs choices available. It is a rear firing design so you need to address sound deadening of the rear cab wall and floor. This makes a huge difference!
You also need to have a CLEAN amp and signal.
Everything is a factor, including cables. You can't expect it to sound good when you're not finished with all details of an installation. Mounting the sub correctly for example... You can't just throw shit in and boom you're done. You have to give air space behind it, and bolt it down so it couples to the truck. A ported box is not a solution, it it a mud thrower. The tightest, cleanest, most accurate Bass will come from a sealed box with proper installation, proper environment control (sound deadening), CLEAN source signal, and a clean, high-power amplifier. I use a 1000 watt Audison amplifier to the same JL box and have literally blown people out of my truck. There is no need for a different sub, you just need to clean everything up and tune it with a clean reference source. If you want muddy, booming, ghetto bass, where only one frequency is heard and it sounds worse than you already have, go for the ported box.

 

I second this^^^^ the JL Audio Stealthbox hammers. I think this is really how your amp is setup.

How are the other channels wired?

What’s the crossover frequency set at
For your subs?

What’s your gain setup for the front , rear,
And sub channels?

I have a feeling the crossover and gain aren’t set where you want.

 

Ok well that amp is hardly pushing that JL sub box. I have 2 10w3 in a regular box powered by a JL audio 1000/1 and they sound amazing. That stealth box should sound even better then what I have. Also make sure all the settings on ur pioneer are set up. EQ as well.

 

This! Couldn't have said it any better.

I have the stealthbox powered by a hd900/5 with a fix86 giving me a flat sound curve from the factory head unit. I'm very happy with the sound.

 

I think you want it loud. I have 2 self powered 8’s, 200w rms and they crank. I couldn’t imagine what you have for sound.

 

Alright, I appreciate your input.
Allow me to retort;

I'm pretty sure I have that issue covered.

I think I have that covered as well with the Alpine PDX V9.
I won't bother cut and pasting the specs, but they can be found here.
https://www.alpine-usa.com/product/pdx-v9

Yes, I am realizing part of my issue is listening to XM, the songs on my iPhone sound much better with better low end results.
I don't really have the time to replace the 5K songs on my iPhone with FLAC files on an SD card.
I can certainly live with the improvement of the mp3 files over the that of XM when I really need a cleaner sound.

You might have me on the power cables;
I'm currently using a 4 ga CCA wire and need to replace it with copper.
The 4ga is what was required in the Alpine manual and at the time I didn't know what CCA wire was.
All my RCAs are Knuconceptz Krystal Kables.
All my speaker wires are 14 ga and the sub has 12ga.

If you know anything about the specific Stealthbox I currently have, you'd know it is bolted down using the rear seat mounting bolts.
I've also been told by people I've addressed this issue with that the Stealhbox is indeed a good product.
Although this specific double 10" for the Tundra DC is not one of their finest offerings.
Therefore, I am seeking info on other enclosures.

Never stated I wanted a different sub, only the sub enclosure.

I have learned the importance of tuning this month.
My sub has been underwhelming for a long time, I've just never had time to mess with it..
Since my son-in-law spent a little time with me and the truck, it sounds 150% better than it did.

Well, that is what some of my reading is telling me.
Ported boxes are geared more to rap and hiphop, neither that I indulge in that much.
But for a few hundred dollars, I can try one, compare to the sealed box, and sell whichever one I don't want.

Thanks again for your input, it was helpful..

 

Front and rear doors sound fine, never had an issue with them.
Each are running on 100 watts RMS.
The

$630 Focal PS165FX Flax 6.5” 2-Way Component kit, RMS: 80W - MAX: 160W

Focal PS165FX in the front doors are amazing.
The Focal 100AC in the rear sound great.
The dash speakers are stock and wired to the HU.
I had them disconnected for a long time.
Son-in-law had me hook them up and more or less blended them with the front doors.
I'm now looking to replace the side dash (if i can find something that will fit) and run them with the stock DVC center speaker.

Since my son-in-law helped me with tuning:
The subs are set at 63Hz, fronts at 80hz (I think) rears at 120Hz.
He worked with the gains, but I don't know where they are set, I haven't looked.

You are correct, him setting my gains, crossovers, and explaining TA to me, helped the entire system.
Going from a inept sub sound to I can finally hear the thump of a bass drum.
What really helped me know than anything was me sitting in the driver's seat, while he adjusted things.
I've been on my own trying to fix this and I realize it is really difficult to tune this thing on my own.

 

Just to backtrack and try some things, which I'm sure you've done a few of these.....
First, i'd play with your crossover setting on your amp for the subs and see if that changes the sound the way you want it.
Second, Try turning the balance to the left or with and see if that changes the sub performance. As simple as it is, it could be wired reverse polarity for one of the subs. You'll notice it hit harder if your on one side vs balanced in the middle. This actually happened to me with my first Stealthbox in the early 2000's.
Third, Play with the gain a tad and make sure it's clipping at the right level.
Fourth, I believe that Alpine HU had volume inputs and EQ settings for each input i.e., BT, XM, USB, AM/FM.
Yes the XM single sucks. Spotify, Pandora ,and iTunes each have high quality playback if you use those.
Just take your time any adjustment in the above steps will effect a needed adjustment in the others.

Do you have a picture of the current amp settings and switches?

SORRY ! DISREGARD ABOVE I THINK WE POSTED AT THE SAME TIME!

 

What is really odd;
For every person telling me 500 watts is plenty for my subs, is another person telling me I need 1000 watts for them.
When I tested the 1000w amp yesterday, it really didn't sound that much different than the 500 watt even running the gains up and down a little.

I don't need it LOUD, I need good clean rounded sound at low and moderate listening levels..

 

Ok, you are putting in some effort. (When I saw jumper cables I got a little worried!)
Keep tuning, but...
You may have phase issues with the other speakers installed. It only takes one out of phase speaker to cause serious losses in Bass and or sound. It may be hard to determine this, but you can try by fading and balancing. Fade to front, then L to R. Then to back and repeat. If at any time the Bass gets better, the speakers you have faded away from are out is phase with your sub. If you find this to be true, reverse polarity on that speaker.
Tuning can take a very long time and you need to make sure everything is indeed in phase before you start. I can easily say I've put over 100 hours of tuning into my system, and I always have to make "micro" adjustments depending on what source of music or type of music. With all the compression in BT and XM streams, it will be hard to find any one tune the suits every song.

 

I'm try all that next week when I'm off.
I know all my polarities are correct.
I can swap the sub phase with the HU.
I'll look into each input and see if they have separate settings.
I've never used Spotify or Pandora, I think my wife uses Pandora.
I'll look into them as well.

I think any issues I'm having are just gain, crossover, TA settings.
I don't think I need a bigger amp.

It is just in the past I've read so much and watched so many videos on setting gains, crossovers, etc. if just gets frustrating.
What really helped me was having someone make adjustments while I sat in the truck.

I'll take some pics of my gains, crossovers and the EQ he set up for me.
I'll post them and maybe ya'll can help narrow things down.

I really appreciate all the input, it all helps me and well as anyone in the future that may read this thread...

 

You have potential for your stealth box beyond what the 500 watt amp can provide.

A general rule for subs is 20% over rating. If you have a 800 watt rated sub, a 1000w amp will reach the subs potential.
This means a 1000 watt amp will waste "20%" by the time it is pushed full rated output (through voltage, distance, signal voltage, ground potential, etc...)

You don't NEED 1000 watts, but it will ultimately give you better control and range of your sub.

 

The jumper cable was my wild idea to test the other amp, and it worked I guess.

At least I know know I can return the bigger amp without wondering if it would have helped.
It had a slight more umph, but not worth swapping a 5-channel for 2 amps.
If I kept it cranked and I was 30 years younger, I might have done it.
Also I am replacing that CCA wire no matter what.
I guess I'll replace it with another 4ga, I don't see the need for 0ga and then have to use a dist block under the seat.
I'm also going to replace the battery ground to chassis with 1ga and maybe a better bigger AGM battery.

I've read about polarity and phase until I'm blue in the face.
What, in the simplest of terms for my simple mind, is the difference between polarity and phase?
I know I have my polarities in order in my doors, dash, and sub.

I'll try your fade/front rear test and see what happens.
I know with the sudden improvement of the sub, it seems I need to adjust the bass knob for every song.
Also I'm finding all my needed adjustment in the bottom 25% of the rotation of the knob.
I start at sub all the way down and creep up just a little until it sounds good.


Thank you again for your help...

 

Polarity is the positive and negative designation of the terminals. Phase is the output waves of the speaker relative to time. A complete, single-cycle sine wave is equally positive as it is negative in amplitude and frequency. As ac voltage is pushed through a speaker the positive wave is up (the woofer moving outward) and then the negative wave is down (woofer moving inward) zero is at rest. When you change polarity , these parameters flip by 180° meaning what was pushing the woofer out is now pulling it inward. If you have two speakers playing the same note but pushing and pulling against each other, the result is a cancellation, and a void of sound (low output).

Hope this helps!

You can double-check your polarity by taking a small AAA battery and "popping" each speaker. Disconnect at the amp, just quickly touch the speaker wires to the battery and look at the speaker (DO NOT HOLD the wires on the battery it is DC!!!) The speaker will move in or out based on which wire is touching the positive terminal of the battery. This will let you know 100% on your wiring of polarity. If all polarities are good, you can still have phase cancellation because of the mounting location in the truck, and the interior too. The only way to correct that is with a DSP and time alignment. (Which digital moves the pushing and pulling of each output in milliseconds of time until it is "in phase")

 

Essentially polarity is just what you think it is
+ and -. If your speakers are ran correctly ,
+ speaker wire to + terminal , - to -, a speaker should be in phase. if one speaker
Is wired backwards , it is out of phase. Meaning one speaker is pushing while the other is pulling.
Some audio guys do this on purpose when speakers are not mounted the same or facing different firing directions.
But what often happens is when someone is wiring speakers in parallel to drop impedance (ohms) meaning the positive wire/terminal from one speaker goes to the positive terminal of the other speaker and negative to negative , they end up wiring it backwards by accident. This results in a positive terminal of one speaker wired to a negative terminal of another speaker.
If you have two 4ohm subs wired in parallel the amp will essentially see a 2 ohm load .
If it’s wired in series (positive terminal to negative terminal ) it will see a 4 ohm load and be out of phase.

 

I really have to stop posting while someone else is writing the same thing. Lol great explanation!

 

Lol
Same here!!!

 

I almost forgot. Try starting the subs xover out around 80 and adjust up or down from there depending on how you like the sound.

 

Dynomat or hushmat the back wall. Trying running directly from your phone to the usb instead of bluetooth. That will definitely give you a cleaner signal. I am running a JL HD750/1 to my stealthbox and it sounds amazing.

 

See post #14...

I'll try the USB, the phone on bluetooth sounds great compared to XM.
I always knew the XM signal wasn't that good, I just didn't realize how bad it was..

 

I had a kenwood 495ddx and I knew the XM single was crap. But I didn't know the EQ settings on the head unit were also specific for the input. So, I'd make a user defined custom EQ setting for Bluetooth or USB only to find out the EQ when I switched to XM was defaulted to "EASY". Those things can be difficult. Even with the manual, I really had to dig deep in ther menu to change some basic settings to make it sound better, including the built in crossover. I eventually ended up calling Kenwood for help.

Anyhow, I'm running a JL Audio amp close to the specs of yours.

• 75 watts RMS x 4 + 400 watts RMS x 1 (at 4 ohms)
• 100 watts RMS x 4 + 600 watts RMS x 1 (at 2 ohms)

I say I just want it clean with tight bass and I don't need it loud. And that's pretty true , but the reality is I rock that thing all the time. My kids got in and were listening to their mush mouth mumble crap rap, and the bass was so hard and boomy when cranked that we were laughing that it was literally hurting our ear drums from the pressure. Of course I turned it down and threatened to ground them for life if I ever had to listen to Juice World again. I think that amp you have , with proper adjustments, should be enough. I'm older now, have a perspective on bleeding eardrums, and like to listen to just about everything made after the 70's. My youth was spent causing around with two 15" subs and two 12"'s in the back of an S10 blazer. Ridiculous. Yep, I was that teenage idiot.
I would love to help you out on where my amp settings are but this was the first time I needed help (it's a complicated amp adjusted by PC interface). I have no idea where we left stuff and I forgot to write it down.

 

A ported box will create more bass at lower sound levels as well. Which, by the sounds of it is what your looking for.