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Wheel torque comparison of 2021 vs 2022 Tundra.

Discussion in '3rd Gen Tundras (2022+)' started by Coal Dragger, Dec 8, 2021.

  1. Dec 8, 2021 at 11:23 PM
    #1
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Decided to do some math and see just what we're losing out on, or gaining with the new engines, transmission, and rear gear ratio.

    So I plugged in a bunch of numbers into a wheel torque calculator and converted back to imperial to make it easier to understand. Please note I did not try to apply a correction factor for driveline losses. All figures calculated on a 32.1" tire.

    https://x-engineer.org/calculate-wheel-torque-engine/

    First we will look at maximum wheel torque numbers for a 2021 with a 5.7L 3UR-FE "iForce" making 401ft-lbs of torque and 6 speed automatic with a 4.30:1 rear end gear in 2wd mode.

    1st Gear 3.33 = 2873ft-lbs
    2nd Gear 1.96 = 1690ft-lbs
    3rd Gear 1.35 = 1165ft-lbs
    4th Gear 1.00 = 863ft-lbs
    5th Gear .73 = 630ft-lbs
    6th Gear .59 = 509ft-lbs

    Next up the 2022 with a 3.4L V35A-FTS "iForce" making 479ft-lbs of torque and 10 speed automatic with a 3.31:1 rear end gear in 2wd mode.

    1st Gear 4.92 = 3898ft-lbs
    2nd Gear 3.26 = 2583ft-lbs
    3rd Gear 2.35 = 1862ft-lbs
    4th Gear 1.94 = 1537ft-lbs
    5th Gear 1.53 = 1212ft-lbs
    6th Gear 1.19 = 943ft-lbs
    7th Gear 1.00 = 792ft-lbs
    8th Gear .80 = 634ft-lbs
    9th Gear .66 = 523ft-lbs
    10th Gear .61 = 483ft-lbs

    Then we look at the 3.4L V35A-FTS paired with an electric motor "iForceMax" making 583ft-lbs of torque and a 10 speed automatic with a 3.31:1 rear end gear in 2wd mode.

    1st Gear 4.92 = 4745ft-lbs
    2nd Gear 3.26 = 3143ft-lbs
    3rd Gear 2.35 = 2267ft-lbs
    4th Gear 1.94 = 1870ft-lbs
    5th Gear 1.53 = 1475ft-lbs
    6th Gear 1.19 = 1148ft-lbs
    7th Gear 1.00 = 964ft-lbs
    8th Gear .80 = 771ft-lbs
    9th Gear .66 = 637ft-lbs
    10th Gear .61 = 589ft-lbs

    So what can we take from this? Assuming there is no torque management/limiting on any of these engines (which we know there probably is), the new truck enjoys considerably more wheel torque in lower gears than the 2021 model despite a taller rear end gear. Not until a 1.00:1 ratio in the transmission is achieved (2021 4th gear, 2022 7th gear) does the 4.30:1 rear end of the 2021 show a wheel torque advantage over the 2022 with the standard engine, although the 10 speed allows the first overdrive to have slightly more wheel torque than the first overdriven gear of the 6 speed. Notice how close 6th and 7th gear are in the new 10 speed, I'll bet the new truck will find a happy spot on mild grades with a trailer on in one of those two gears and I think that close spacing is very intentional.

    The upcoming 3.4L V35A-FTS hybrid "iForceMax" 10 speed combo shows a clear and decisive wheel torque advantage over the previous 2021 5.7L 3UR-FE 6 speed in every gear and never gives it up regardless of the taller rear end gear. I will be curious to see if this can be turned into faster acceleration from a stop because this truck is going to be very traction limited. I'm going to venture a guess that there will be a ton of intervention in the ECU and TCU to limit max torque output in lower gears to save the driveline from a premature death. Unloaded this truck should be effortlessly powerful.
     
  2. Dec 8, 2021 at 11:59 PM
    #2
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Next we can consider the matching of torque curve to transmission ratios and axle ratio.

    I arbitrarily picked a speed of 70 MPH to illustrate this to see how close each gear is to peak torque as a way to predict where the transmission will want to or need to go on a grade or in order to otherwise maintain speed under load.

    First up the 2021 5.7L 3UR-FE 6 speed combo with 4.30:1 rear end. Peak torque of 401ft-lbs @ 3600 RPM's.

    1st Gear = Not applicable engine speed in excess of redline.
    2nd Gear = Not applicable engine speed in excess of redline.
    3rd Gear = 4253 RPM truck accelerates readily from 70MPH.
    4th Gear = 3150 RPM pretty damn close to peak torque and my truck often finds 4th gear to be a good climbing gear on 6-7% grades with the ability to accelerate.
    5th Gear = 2300 RPM usually a mild to moderate incline can be pulled off in 5th.
    6th Gear = 1859 RPM usually downshifts on anything but fairly level ground or a moderate incline.

    The new 2022 makes peak torque in all the engines at 2400 RPM's, I will not bother with the poverty spec SR so that means 479ft-lbs or 583ft-lbs.

    1st Gear = Not applicable engine speed in excess of redline.
    2nd Gear = Not applicable engine speed in excess of redline.
    3rd Gear = Not applicable engine speed in excess of redline.
    4th Gear = 4705 RPM I'm sure the truck will accelerate but with peak power at 5200 RPM it's kind of pointless to grab 4th at 70MPH to only need to upshift immediately.
    5th Gear = 3711 RPM Probably a useful get up and boogy passing gear from 70MPH.
    6th Gear = 2886 RPM Oh look at that right in the meat of peak torque band, probably see this one a lot towing and hauling.
    7th Gear = 2425 RPM Right at the start of peak torque, again towing and hauling sweet spot.
    8th Gear = 1940 RPM First overdrive gear is closer to peak torque than the previous generation engine, transmission, rear gear combo. Probably won't have to leave OD often.
    9th Gear = 1601 RPM I'll bet it downshifts on anything more than the most moderate grade. The iForceMax might not have to downshift from here.
    10th Gear = 1479 RPM Probably flat ground only. The iForceMax might hold this one longer but damn that's low RPM to lug up a hill in.

    Over all the new truck is clearly set up to surf peak torque as much as possible.
     
    Soupbean77, Wynnded and ColoradoTJ like this.
  3. Dec 9, 2021 at 12:00 AM
    #3
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Blasting the tires off for 60ft has it's merits...... tires are evil they deserve to be punished sometimes.
     
  4. Dec 9, 2021 at 12:07 AM
    #4
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    If we were talking about rear wheel drive muscle cars I'd agree.

    Our "problem" can be solved by putting the truck in 4HI, brake torque the hell out of it and let her rip! Or just not drag race with a 5600-6000lb truck because it's pointless and stupid, there's always gonna be someone faster in a decently quick sports car.
     
  5. Dec 9, 2021 at 12:25 AM
    #5
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    If you're beating Camaro's and Mustang's with your Tundra they're either:

    1.) Unaware they were racing. (most likely)
    2.) Horribly incompetent drivers.
    3.) They bought the V6.

    Sorry bro, but your Tundra isn't fast. Even with a supercharger on the 5.7L it's not in the same league as well driven pony cars or sports cars with over 400hp.
     
  6. Dec 9, 2021 at 1:14 AM
    #6
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Yeah hate to bash on your 91 Z28 (I owned a '94 Z28 LT1 6 speed once upon a time) but it wasn't fast either. At least not stock by today's standards.
     
  7. Dec 9, 2021 at 7:26 AM
    #7
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    What would you prefer? What's wrong with a 60 ft burnout?
     
  8. Dec 9, 2021 at 7:48 AM
    #8
    hagrid

    hagrid The most diverse of Diversity Hires!

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    paynuss stretchers
    6000'. All four tires.

    And the exhaust note needs to sound like the Apocalypse is finally upon us.




    Also... Wagner. Ride of the Valkyries. Now there's a guy that knew how to exploit the ultimate power of a low brass section.
     
  9. Dec 9, 2021 at 7:51 AM
    #9
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
  10. Dec 9, 2021 at 6:04 PM
    #10
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ Certified tow LEO Staff Member

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    Nice work with the math and calculators! Well done. :hattip:

    What would be interesting would be these numbers at different elevation points. That gap would probably really start opening up significantly around 6000' elevation.
     
  11. Dec 10, 2021 at 8:43 AM
    #11
    Nm6300'asl

    Nm6300'asl New Member

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    I agree CoTJ and that is what has me really interested in the gen 3. I live and 6300' so the 5.7 is almost 20% down on power.
     
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  12. Dec 10, 2021 at 11:02 AM
    #12
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Should be strait forward for a naturally aspirated engine: just figure your standard 3% loss for every 1000ft above sea level. So 6000ft should have those figures down 18%, just multiply any given number for horsepower or torque expressed at sea level by .82 in your case and you should have a good estimate at least for the 5.7L 3UR-FE.

    The new 2022 Tundra and the V35A-FTS will be trickier to predict, up to a certain altitude that probably only Toyota engineers know right now; the turbos will be able to produce maximum programmed boost. Manifold pressure is manifold pressure, so power will be constant to a certain point. At really high elevations and low air density the turbos will become less responsive as time to boost/time to torque lag because the turbos will need to spin higher RPM’s to make the same manifold pressure they did at lower altitude. Full rated power will still be possible, but the time needed to hit target boost will take longer albeit fractions of a second.

    Go high enough and the turbine/impeller speeds necessary on the small stock turbos to make full boost will exceed rated design speed. Then you won’t get all the Freedom Eagles, but still way more than a naturally aspirated engine.
     
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  13. Dec 10, 2021 at 12:00 PM
    #13
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ Certified tow LEO Staff Member

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    I know the feeling (7550’). Towing at some elevation points in Colorado one can be down 33% on power (~126 hp) and fighting grades/weather considerations.

    My 2012 Tundra was breathing pretty hard at 11000 feet and having 8000 lbs behind it.
     
  14. Dec 10, 2021 at 12:31 PM
    #14
    ColoradoTJ

    ColoradoTJ Certified tow LEO Staff Member

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    Good information. What I meant is it would be cool to see on a line graph and compare it with the turbocharged motor with minimal losses of ~1%. Obviously Toyota engineers have to design a truck the works in both 0 and 11k foot elevation points.

    I can only imagine when the aftermarket starts playing with turbine/compressor/housing sizes with fueling. Betting this will be amazing and 125 Hp gains will be had pretty easily.

    Right now I’m playing with Hot/Cold side tubing to my CAC to improve efficiency/reliability. I have already seen pretty good improvements due to adding a true cold air intake from Banks. From what I’ve researched, another 10-15 hp is gained. The EGT drop and fuel economy is what I’m interested in.
     
  15. Dec 10, 2021 at 3:13 PM
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    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Figure there’s probably at least 40-70hp gains on the table (or more) with a tune alone depending on how aggressive you want to be and what grade of fuel you have access to,
     
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  16. Dec 10, 2021 at 5:42 PM
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    ColoradoTJ

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    I agree. Start installing aftermarket injectors/turbo's/and some other go fast goodies.....might get fun.
     
  17. Dec 11, 2021 at 5:43 AM
    #17
    Jowett

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    It will be most excellent if we can run the 4.30 gears with the 3rd gen truck.
     
  18. Dec 12, 2021 at 12:21 PM
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    Summitroad

    Summitroad New Member

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    Nice work. However, look like you left 1 motor out, the SR 2022 engine max torque is only 405ft-lb.
     
  19. Dec 13, 2021 at 12:55 PM
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    Bannerman

    Bannerman Tasteful Thickness

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    Is this tongue-in-cheek or is this r/iamverybadass ?
     
  20. Dec 13, 2021 at 3:12 PM
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    Bannerman

    Bannerman Tasteful Thickness

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    So, the second one. Got it.
     
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  21. Dec 13, 2021 at 6:24 PM
    #21
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    I can’t be bothered to calculate such things for the poverty edition Tundra.
     
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  22. Dec 13, 2021 at 7:15 PM
    #22
    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    The new SR de-tuned 3.4L TTV6 = The old 4.0L base V6.

    The new base 3.4L TTV6 iForce = The old 4.7L and 4.6L V8’s.

    The new iForceMax hybrid = The old 5.7L V8.

    No one cares about the basic bitch motor, because no one is going to buy one.
     
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  23. Dec 14, 2021 at 6:23 AM
    #23
    Cpl_Punishment

    Cpl_Punishment Young men never die.

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    Why do you keep saying 3.4L?
     
  24. Dec 14, 2021 at 6:24 AM
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    Nm6300'asl

    Nm6300'asl New Member

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    Technically it is a 3.4 and change that toyota calls a 3.5.
     
  25. Dec 14, 2021 at 6:31 AM
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    Coal Dragger

    Coal Dragger [OP] New Member

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    I wanted a faster vehicle so I also bought a Chevy SS... because 4 door sedans with big V8’s are hilarious.
    Because it displaces 3,444cc and that equals 3.4L.

    Toyota can pretend it’s close enough to a 3.5L but I don’t have to buy into marketing over basic mathematics procedures on rounding up or down.
     
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  26. Dec 14, 2021 at 6:34 AM
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    hagrid

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    I insist we use ASTM E29 rounding procedures.
     
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  27. Dec 14, 2021 at 7:15 AM
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    Cpl_Punishment

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    Good to know, thanks. I didn't realize any manufacturer since Ford in the 90s was still doing that.
     
  28. Dec 14, 2021 at 8:27 AM
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    eagleguy

    eagleguy New Member

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    Anyone who thinks the new Turbo six will hold up like the previous V8 is in for a rude awakening.
     
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  29. Dec 14, 2021 at 8:57 AM
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    Breathing Borla

    Breathing Borla I'd rather be fishing

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    based on what?
     
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